Driver took a wrong route

HaggisBotherer · 20 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
Really?
While I don't doubt people's ignorance, I really don't think they are that stupid to think drivers steer trains.
I'd have thought it's more that they haven't processed what the basics of railways are.
Sorry but it's not understandable in my mind.

Your mind is interested in railways, that of the vast majority of people is not. All the majority will think is that trains run to a timetable and they hope that (a) they will get to their destination on time and (b) that they can get a seat. Why would they care about the mechanics of how that happens?

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driver_m · 20 Feb 2019

Deafdoggie said:
A few years ago, just before 390s came along, a class 47 was attached to the front of the Euston-Holyhead at Crewe, but without taking the 90 off first! Got all the way to Llandudno Junction before anyone noticed.

Not a routing issue though was it?!! The train went the right way, just that the 2 for 1 offer was a bit of a bum sell.

driver_m · 20 Feb 2019

I can give another location out where a wrong route can be offered, and a driver can't possibly do anything to react and stop in time .However I shall leave it to you non staff people to work it out. Your clue is that the service splits and it's headcode was recently altered to minimise the risk of a wrong route . It involves a 221.

Strat-tastic · 20 Feb 2019

tom73 said:
Sorry but the use of the pronoun amused me, as though the train itself drove back to Salford Crescent to try again.

You are familiar with Thomas the Tank, yes?

Taunton · 20 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
Really?
While I don't doubt people's ignorance, I really don't think they are that stupid to think drivers steer trains.
I'd have thought it's more that they haven't processed what the basics of railways are.
Sorry but it's not understandable in my mind.

I guess you didn't know modernisation plan dmus, with the full view through the drivers' cab, and in the centre on the control desk was a large horizontal wheel which pulled, by mechanism, the parking brake on/off.

The number of those, especially mothers with children, I recall who said in response to "what's that" it was the steering wheel was extraordinary.

I suppose those children are those I occasionally encounter nowadays in trams, who call them "buses".

matchmaker · 20 Feb 2019

I was on a Glasgow-Stirling service and for some reason the route at Greenhill Upper must have been set for the main - Edinburgh - direction. The driver must have been alerted by the lack of flashing double yellow and yellow signals and stopped short of the junction. A few minutes later we set off on the correct route!

LAX54 · 20 Feb 2019

Tom Quinne said:
ARS very rarely wrong routes to be fair to it, it’s been known though.

If a Signaller wrong routes it’s noted, there is paperwork to complete - to many wrong routes and you’ll having a chat with your LOM.

If you consider how many routes we set in a hour it becomes very easy especially under stress to misread a headcode and wrong route, usually you’ll notice and cancel the route it there is time without a COA, if it’s to late you’ll have to contact the driver via the GSMR.

If a Signaller calls a incorrect route, and the driver takes its it 50/50 blame - but the driver will get the ****ty end of the stick that’s for sure.

A few years ago our Manager was moaning about the amount of wrong routes we had been doing, think we had 6 in about 5 or 6 months, we did point out that on average we have 4000+ button pushes as day, of those 4000+, one button wrong can set the wrong route, then multiply that by 6 months worth of buttons, and we thought we were not doing that badly !

We now have S-ARS in part of the box, it's not perfect by any means, and has set some odd routes! but the actions are only as good as the person who made and uploaded the timetable

pompeyfan · 21 Feb 2019

swills said:
A few years ago our Manager was moaning about the amount of wrong routes we had been doing, think we had 6 in about 5 or 6 months, we did point out that on average we have 4000+ button pushes as day, of those 4000+, one button wrong can set the wrong route, then multiply that by 6 months worth of buttons, and we thought we were not doing that badly !

We now have S-ARS in part of the box, it's not perfect by any means, and has set some odd routes! but the actions are only as good as the person who made and uploaded the timetable

Talking of ARS, on the simulator Simsig, if you manually set an ARS route along a route that’s not booked, thinking routing across to the UMF from the UMS for example if there’s issues, can you set the train to be ARS enabled and it’ll try and find its way back to its own booked route using crossovers in the same way that ARS has been designed on simsig?

Tom Quinne · 21 Feb 2019

ARS will sound an alarm if you route off planned path, the train then becomes non ars and won’t automatically route after.

TheSel · 21 Feb 2019

HaggisBotherer said:
Your mind is interested in railways, that of the vast majority of people is not. All the majority will think is that trains run to a timetable and they hope that (a) they will get to their destination on time and (b) that they can get a seat. Why would they care about the mechanics of how that happens?

I would suggest that the majority of regular users of certain franchises think that the timetable is there so that you know how late the train is, and that a seat is a special prize, only awarded to the few lucky commuters who board at the service's originating station!

mervyn72 · 21 Feb 2019

This once happened to me at Farrindon. I was pax on a Moorgate train before the branch closed and driver accepted to route to Blackfriars. We got half way over the junction before stopping. We did reverse back and in total lost about 20 minutes...

Trackman · 21 Feb 2019

Eccles1983 said:
Their is no "feather" it's a theatre box with either US/DB/UB.
It's all on the driver unfortunately

It used to be, did they change it when the new signals went in?
Not been there for a few years, I'm sure it was a route indicator then.

GW43125 · 21 Feb 2019

I've once been in a 12-car that was offered platform 1 at Portsmouth Harbour (8car), that could've been embarrassing. Driver thankfully didn't take it.

pompeyfan · 21 Feb 2019

GW43125 said:
I've once been in a 12-car that was offered platform 1 at Portsmouth Harbour (8car), that could've been embarrassing. Driver thankfully didn't take it.

It’s not the end of the world thankfully and is used occasionally. Not a huge amount of difference from 12 car terminating at Alton.

GW43125 · 21 Feb 2019

pompeyfan said:
It’s not the end of the world thankfully and is used occasionally. Not a huge amount of difference from 12 car terminating at Alton.

Didn't realise the signal section was long enough. Nevermind then!

WessexEclectic · 21 Feb 2019

GW43125 said:
I've once been in a 12-car that was offered platform 1 at Portsmouth Harbour (8car), that could've been embarrassing. Driver thankfully didn't take it.

Then there's the tale of an HST routed into P1 at Bristol Temple Meads. The driver wasn't so lucky....

158757 · 21 Feb 2019

Trackman said:
It used to be, did they change it when the new signals went in?
Not been there for a few years, I'm sure it was a route indicator then.

There's a route indicator on platform 1 on the down for Atherton, but on the up it's a theatre box only.

westcoaster · 21 Feb 2019

swills said:
But only a 'valid' route if booked that way by way of a diversion, or an incident has happened that requires trains to go that way, otherwise, it will still be a wrong route, and if a delay caused, dealt with as such.

Is not correct, the sectional appendix allows it and as such a driver can not question going via Redhill. Also the same applies to fast trains sent via the catford loop instead of down the main line.

randyrippley · 21 Feb 2019

Deafdoggie said:
A few years ago, just before 390s came along, a class 47 was attached to the front of the Euston-Holyhead at Crewe, but without taking the 90 off first! Got all the way to Llandudno Junction before anyone noticed.

If I remember correctly, that was a regular event for a while, with the electric loco regularly reaching Holyhead.
It was deliberate: disconnecting/reconnecting the remote control cables was too unreliable, better to leave the whole set as a fixed formation.
I've certainly seen complete push-pull sets being towed along the route.

Deafdoggie · 22 Feb 2019

randyrippley said:
If I remember correctly, that was a regular event for a while, with the electric loco regularly reaching Holyhead.
It was deliberate: disconnecting/reconnecting the remote control cables was too unreliable, better to leave the whole set as a fixed formation.
I've certainly seen complete push-pull sets being towed along the route.

As far as I know class 90's still not cleared for North Wales coast, they were supposed to be detached at Crewe, and a 57 replaced it. When the 390's took over, they simply had a 57 added on the front. When a MK3 set came along, someone forgot, and just stuck the 57 on the front anyway. The train in question was 90039 and got to Llandudno Junction before the 90 was spotted, was then promptly terminated, and the 90 removed. The set did the return without it. It was eventually collected by 47830

EvoIV · 22 Feb 2019

tsr said:
The Network Rail (or predecessors') argument, which was (unfortunately for the driver & co.) entirely correct, was that the driver should have expected the most restrictive aspect at the next signal, seeing as shunt signals never usually have any way to display the possible aspect of the next signal, and there is never an intended meaning as such.

Undoubtedly the driver was sadly done like a kipper. That said, this shows the reason that deviations such as this from normal operating practice via local instructions should not be allowed. A position light means you proceed at caution as far as you can see the line to be clear etc. By having this deviation drivers are then being conditioned to open up after passing a position light and this is entirely incorrect behaviour. Such a move would definitely get my Spidey sense tingling. But for the hundredth time? Maybe not...

Tom Quinne · 22 Feb 2019

Deafdoggie said:
As far as I know class 90's still not cleared for North Wales coast, they were supposed to be detached at Crewe, and a 57 replaced it. When the 390's took over, they simply had a 57 added on the front. When a MK3 set came along, someone forgot, and just stuck the 57 on the front anyway. The train in question was 90039 and got to Llandudno Junction before the 90 was spotted, was then promptly terminated, and the 90 removed. The set did the return without it. It was eventually collected by 47830

How many manual SB did it pass before anyone noticed !

Deafdoggie · 22 Feb 2019

Tom Quinne said:
How many manual SB did it pass before anyone noticed !

Quite a few along the coast!

sw1ller · 22 Feb 2019

Deafdoggie said:
Quite a few along the coast!

If it was to happen today, Llandudno junction would be the first one (occupied) sadly.

Deafdoggie · 22 Feb 2019

sw1ller said:
If it was to happen today, Llandudno junction would be the first one (occupied) sadly.

This was back in 2005, when were the boxes decommissioned? I forget, as they still stand to this day. It is possible they were not in use back then.

sw1ller · 22 Feb 2019

Deafdoggie said:
This was back in 2005, when were the boxes decommissioned? I forget, as they still stand to this day. It is possible they were not in use back then.

Only last year and only Rockcliffe Hall has been removed. All the signalling between colwyn bay and flint/shotton is done from Cardiff now.

I still look for the signaller in the boxes as I pass. Bit sad really.

Deafdoggie · 22 Feb 2019

sw1ller said:
Only last year and only Rockcliffe Hall has been removed. All the signalling between colwyn bay and flint/shotton is done from Cardiff now.

I still look for the signaller in the boxes as I pass. Bit sad really.

Signalling is a dieing trade. My uncle used to man Alsager East, and when that closed moved to Grange Junction (Longport) till he was taken ill. But Grange has long since closed too.

Tom Quinne · 22 Feb 2019

Deafdoggie said:
This was back in 2005, when were the boxes decommissioned? I forget, as they still stand to this day. It is possible they were not in use back then.

March 2018 Rhyl was commissioned at SWCC.

Bodiddly · 22 Feb 2019

'We're only human' won't wash with todays managers. Their counter argument to that is 'you are a highly trained, highly skilled, well paid individual and it is your job to get things right'. Unfortunately, we're only human is a fact of life. Nobody was injured apart from the driver/signallers pride. The driver rectified it and everyone got to their destination, all be it a little later.
I get very frustrated when people mention disciplinary action. As far as I am concerned, a genuine mistake is just that and does not merit a disciplinary but some managers are only too keen to get the big stick out. It's yet another reason why manager/ employee morale and trust is so low in the railway.

driver_m · 22 Feb 2019

sw1ller said:
If it was to happen today, Llandudno junction would be the first one (occupied) sadly.

Strictly speaking, Crewe steel works and Beeston Castle would have to look as they're both AB, and Chester PSB has the ability to see the train too. Once past Chester, it is Llandudno Jn, but the ironic thing is that it's TCB in the box area, even though it was AB at both ends, but now only at Penmaenmawr end of mainline. So for seeing whether it's complete, does Llandudno have to ensure its looking for tail lamp outside the actual box? Presumably to give line clear to Abergele it must have needed a camera?

Driver took a wrong route

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