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New California rail link in trouble

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SemaphoreSam

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Delays and hugely excessive overruns...sounds like UK electrification woes? Sam

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-train-cost-increase-20180309-story.html
The California bullet train project took a sharp jump in price Friday when the state rail authority announced the cost of connecting Los Angeles to San Francisco would total $77.3 billion, an increase of $13 billion from estimates two years ago.

The rail authority also said that the earliest trains could operate on a partial system between San Jose and the farming town of Wasco would be 2029, five years later than the previous projection. The disclosures are contained in a 114-page business plan that was issued in draft form by the rail authority and will be finalized this summer in a submission to the Legislature.

The rail authority has wrestled with a more than $40-billion funding gap, which would increase sharply under the new cost estimates.

The biggest immediate driver of the cost increase has been in the Central Valley, where the rail authority is building 119 miles of track between Wasco and Merced. The authority disclosed in early February that the cost of that work would jump to $10.6 billion from an original estimate of about $6 billion....
 
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Lucan

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I am on two other technical forums, which have a majority of American members. When the subject of railways sometimes comes up, it becomes clear that the majority are anti-rail to an almost fanatical degree. Most have almost no clue about railways either. For example they (the authorities, not just that forum) argued against a new rail connection to an oil terminal because of the "environmental damage that would be caused by trains derailing, overturning, and spilling oil". They also seem to assume that trains cannot travel at more than about 40mph, and are always crashing (I note the demand in the news report for crash barriers to divide the new line from freight). They also assume that the only rail (or bus) passengers are poor people, muggers, drop-outs, druggies and (heaven forbid) blacks. They claim that the arrival of any form of public transport into an area turns it into a slum.

Much of the opposition to the new line, and railways generally, as I read it on those other forums is rooted in these attitudes, and to some extent those views mentioned above are self-fulfilling. However, they (especially politicians, who rarely have much technical grasp of anything) also believe Elon Musk's hype about his Hyperloop which will of course solve everything from transport to World hunger. The idea of the Hyperloop as an alternative to the high speed line is another factor against the latter getting finance.

What the heck is that first picture about anyway?
 
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MarkyT

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I am on two other technical forums, which have a majority of American members. When the subject of railways sometimes comes up, it becomes clear that the majority are anti-rail to an almost fanatical degree. Most have almost no clue about railways either. For example they (the authorities, not just that forum) argued against a new rail connection to an oil terminal because of the "environmental damage that would be caused by trains derailing, overturning, and spilling oil". They also seem to assume that trains cannot travel at more than about 40mph, and are always crashing (I note the demand in the news report for crash barriers to divide the new line from freight). They also assume that the only rail (or bus) passengers are poor people, muggers, drop-outs, druggies and (heaven forbid) blacks. They claim that the arrival of any form of public transport into an area turns it into a slum.

Much of the opposition to the new line, and railways generally, as I read it on those other forums is rooted in these attitudes, and to some extent those views mentioned above are self-fulfilling. However, they (especially politicians, who rarely have much technical grasp of anything) also believe Elon Musk's hype about his Hyperloop which will of course solve everything from transport to World hunger. The idea of the Hyperloop as an alternative to the high speed line is another factor against the latter getting finance.

What the heck is that first picture about anyway?

An interesting perspective there Lucan. It seems to me an all encompassing mindset that came into being in the 60s/70s, but possibly also had roots in much earlier times when the private railroad companies were often seen as exploitative monopolist gangsters with federal backing. The libertarian right in particular push an extreme anti-rail agenda saying all transit support is poor value and one step away from the jackboot of communism, as is any public welfare or health programme as well of course. They'll always oppose passenger rail, saying buses are cheaper and if buses are all that's on offer they'll oppose public funds going into those as well. That damned Ayn Rand woman has a lot to answer for. Her Atlas Shrugged novel, almost a sacred text for the libertarians, was partly set around a railroad theme and the spectre of state intervention interfering with the freedom of corporations and individuals to do what the heck they wanted for their own benefit. The novel's notion of a 'strike' of the wealthy and talented can be likened to the synchronised withdrawal of most non metropolitan passenger rail services throughout the nation. The rail companies, all of one mind clearly blamed the federal government for this, claiming they didn't give them a free enough hand over service levels and prices so they were forced to withdraw service. Of course the state allowed almost all of these closures under threat of widespread bankruptcies. Post-passenger, railroads undertook massive rationalisation of networks and facilities, selling off prime city centre real estate and singling tracks, taking out signalling, train protection systems and reducing much rail mileage to little more than extended industrial spurs that were perfectly adequate for the small number of freight movements that ran, mostly ad hoc without timetable, as expedient. I suspect there's a lot of oil, motor and air money going into anti rail lobbying. Air in particular in California and also in Texas where another serious high speed proposal is under development, stand to lose a great deal on some of their bread and butter short haul corridors. They know very well what has happened to domestic air on some of the strongest high speed rail corridors in Europe and the far east and they're prepared to spend millions and use any trick in the book to defeat the spectre of rail undermining their businesses. The first project to complete a sizable operational segment, probably California but maybe Texas, no doubt occupies their primary attention as any perceived success there could start a cascade. The ultimate irony is a modern nation that was arguably built, and certainly industrialised, by the railroads has been persuaded to turn its populist collective back on the technology, and is now claiming it is outdated, while at the same time actually shifting proportionally far more rail freight than any other country on earth, and where wagonload traffic, although declining, is still competetive for small consignments between private sidings. The populist right and the motor/air/oil lobby are all very noisy in the media and the brickbats seem to be coming from all directions at the moment in California, while the (usually) more thoughtful and measured tones from rail supporters are often drowned out. Cost and time overruns are par for the course in most big infrastructure projects in the US, so it's not just a rail thing. It's difficult to gauge the overall groundswell of opinion at the moment, a bit like support for Trump!
 

philabos

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i really don't think there is as much anti rail feeling in the above as there is a simple lack of relevance to many people.
Over 75% of intercity and commuter rail takes place in the Boston-Richmond corridor. That is 6% of the continental US land mass. Throw in hubs at Chicago and San Francisco and the total is over 90%.
That does not leave much for the other 90 percent of the country.
I lived in the Midwest for 25 years and we had one train around 6 in the morning that had a 50% chance of being on time for an 8 plus hour 500 mile journey to Chicago. Driving would be more than an hour faster and of course Southwest Airlines would get you there in a little over an hour. The railroad has absolutely no desire to host any more trains because they are at or over capacity now. You could build a new line, but there is simply not the population density to support a service. The train could disappear tomorrow and few would notice or care.
While it is true California does have the density, CAHSR is a textbook case on how not to do a public project. Put in your terms, it is akin to building a new railway from Lancaster to Milton Keynes without having a concrete plan to reach Glasgow or London. The latest business plan laments how insufficient resources were not devoted to property acquisition and use and how it will be corrected. We are 9 years into this project and now this thought emerges? I could go on, but you get the idea.
There are many rail advocates among those who believe this project is a gross waste of money. No need to dig up those Trump supporters. California has actually done a good job on the Capitol, San Joaquin and San Diego corridors and money may have been much better spent on further conventional rail services.
States like Virginia and Pennsylvania have invested substantial sums in intercity rail but they are building on to existing corridors, adding tracks and trains at a measured pace. They have produced results without any significant complaint. Every result builds on the last one and people see what they are getting for the investment. The "all major projects have delays" story is being stretched very thin in the case of CAHSR.
 

philabos

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Another chapter in CAHSR from the Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/local/califo...ow-track-20180315-story.html#nws=mcnewsletter
The California bullet train will have another slow segment of track as part of a new cost-savings measure, state rail authority documents reveal.

Technical documents attached to the authority's 2018 business plan show that it no longer plans to have dedicated tracks designed for speeds of up to 220 mph over a 30-mile stretch south of San Francisco.

Instead, the system would operate between San Jose and Gilroy at 110 mph on ground-level tracks on or adjacent to an existing right of way owned by Union Pacific. The route would make 32 highway crossings, requiring sophisticated barrier gates and sharing a corridor that carries freight and commuter rail.

The decision is the third compromise the rail authority has made for money or politics that would create slower sections of track, each incrementally adding travel time to an alternative form of transportation promised to link Los Angeles and San Francisco in less than three hours.

In this case, adding several minutes to the trip is estimated to save about $1.7 billion,....
 
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RussellFM

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I am on two other technical forums, which have a majority of American members. When the subject of railways sometimes comes up, it becomes clear that the majority are anti-rail to an almost fanatical degree. Most have almost no clue about railways either. For example they (the authorities, not just that forum) argued against a new rail connection to an oil terminal because of the "environmental damage that would be caused by trains derailing, overturning, and spilling oil". They also seem to assume that trains cannot travel at more than about 40mph, and are always crashing (I note the demand in the news report for crash barriers to divide the new line from freight). They also assume that the only rail (or bus) passengers are poor people, muggers, drop-outs, druggies and (heaven forbid) blacks. They claim that the arrival of any form of public transport into an area turns it into a slum.
It is a car first society, especially in CA.
 

the sniper

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Another 30 miles of California's bullet train route must run at lower speeds, documents show
The California bullet train will have another slow segment of track as part of a new cost-savings measure, state rail authority documents reveal.

Technical documents attached to the authority's 2018 business plan show that it no longer plans to have dedicated tracks designed for speeds of up to 220 mph over a 30-mile stretch south of San Francisco.

Instead, the system would operate between San Jose and Gilroy at 110 mph on ground-level tracks on or adjacent to an existing right of way owned by Union Pacific. The route would make 32 highway crossings, requiring sophisticated barrier gates and sharing a corridor that carries freight and commuter rail.

http://www.latimes.com/local/califo...ow-track-20180315-story.html#nws=mcnewsletter

Last year I had a good look at the corridor that the Caltrain runs through between San Jose and San Francisco on Google Maps/Streetview. Anything other than running it at ground level at 'traditional speeds' as part of a newly, wholly four tracked route looked like it'd prove to be a monumental cost/engineering challenge, that'd have to be hugely unpopular with the highly condensed local community. The high number of crossings is far from ideal, but this looks like the most realistic option.
 

philabos

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Last year I had a good look at the corridor that the Caltrain runs through between San Jose and San Francisco on Google Maps/Streetview. Anything other than running it at ground level at 'traditional speeds' as part of a newly, wholly four tracked route looked like it'd prove to be a monumental cost/engineering challenge, that'd have to be hugely unpopular with the highly condensed local community. The high number of crossings is far from ideal, but this looks like the most realistic option.

You are quite right. The article states there are 32 grade crossings between San Jose and Gilroy. There are more than that number between San Jose and San Francisco.
Any consideration of an elevated railway has been eliminated in favor of shared use of a primarily two track line already heavily used with stopping trains.
It will be fascinating to see the detail on how this will really work.
 

MarkyT

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You are quite right. The article states there are 32 grade crossings between San Jose and Gilroy. There are more than that number between San Jose and San Francisco.
Any consideration of an elevated railway has been eliminated in favor of shared use of a primarily two track line already heavily used with stopping trains.
It will be fascinating to see the detail on how this will really work.

I understand that on the 'blended section' they envisage some fairly long dynamic loops bypassing a number of closely spaced stations, that allow expresses, both Caltrain and CHSR, to overtake locals.
 

philabos

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and the trouble keeps coming

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-train-utilities-20180418-story.html
> High-speed rail project vastly underestimated cost of relocating
> utility lines beneath Fresno
>
> Buried beneath Fresno were some costly surprises for the California
> bullet train authority, which disclosed Tuesday that the price of
> utility relocations along a 29-mile section of railway has surged
> from a 2013 estimate of $69 million to $396 million.
>
> Although it was known that moving gas lines, sewer pipes, water mains
> and communications wire to make way for the route would be more
> expensive than originally expected, the magnitude of the increase —
> nearly a six-fold jump — puts into better focus why the project's
> costs are rising so sharply....
 
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Bald Rick

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and the trouble keeps coming

Los Angeles Times
By Ralph Vartabedian
Apr 18, 2018

> High-speed rail project vastly underestimated cost of relocating
> utility lines beneath Fresno
>
> Buried beneath Fresno were some costly surprises for the California
> bullet train authority, which disclosed Tuesday that the price of
> utility relocations along a 29-mile section of railway has surged
> from a 2013 estimate of $69 million to $396 million.
>
> Although it was known that moving gas lines, sewer pipes, water mains
> and communications wire to make way for the route would be more
> expensive than originally expected, the magnitude of the increase —
> nearly a six-fold jump — puts into better focus why the project's
> costs are rising so sharply.
>
> The California High-Speed Rail Authority board on Friday took up the
> problem, hearing from its staff that the original estimate contained
> a number of miscalculations.
>
> The number of linear feet of utilities that have to be moved was
> underestimated, as was the cost per foot for the job, according to a
> staff memo. Then, there were utilities that nobody even knew were in
> the ground. The authority changed its mind about some of the work, as
> well, the report said.
>
> The original cost estimate was based on work performed by the rail
> authority's regional consultant, the staff memo said. It did not
> identify the company, but rail authority records indicate the
> regional consultant from before 2013 through at least 2015 was Los
> Angeles-based Aecom. By 2017, the company was no longer on the job.
> The company did not have an immediate response when contacted.
>
> The history of the utility relocations suggests some turmoil in
> management decisions — which the rail authority staff said it would
> not repeat in the future.
>
> The original plan was to have AT&T and Pacific Gas and Electric Co.
> move their own equipment, rather than allow the main construction
> contractor, Tutor Perini, to do the work.
>
> After getting started, however, the two utilities came back and told
> the rail authority that they were having trouble meeting the
> schedule. So, the rail authority handed the job to Tutor Perini in
> February 2017 and increased the budget to $159 million.
>
> By September 2017, the rail authority arrived at a new cost estimate
> of $396 million, which was not made public until Tuesday. The price
> hike is part of the $2.8 billion in cost increases for the Central
> Valley work that were disclosed in January and were incorporated into
> the draft 2018 business plan released last month.
>
> The higher costs would deplete the budget for the utility relocations
> by April, according to the staff memo. So the board approved moving
> $40 million from a future contract reserved for installing track in
> the Central Valley to cover the utility work in Fresno. That $40
> million will fund the utility work until July, the memo said.


http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-train-utilities-20180418-story.html

And this is why we have GRIP...
 

philabos

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Lancaster PA
More or less CAHSR

The less side seems to be gaining:

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-silence-20180516-story.html

"
The bullet train is California's biggest infrastructure project — but it's seldom discussed in governor's race
By Ralph Vartabedian
May 16, 2018 | 8:50 PM


It's the biggest infrastructure project in state history, but the California bullet train gets hardly any attention on the campaign trail.

The leading candidates for governor have said little publicly about how they would fix dire problems in the $77-billion mega-project that has already overrun its initial cost estimate by $44 billion.


The next governor, as well as the state Senate and Assembly, will inherit a financial storm and face the tasks of finding money to bore tunnels under three mountain ranges, develop complex passages through the state's biggest urban regions and avoid further political compromises that would slow travel along the route.

Yet the California political system is largely shying away from addressing the problems at the very moment when the project's chief proponent, Gov. Jerry Brown, prepares to leave office.



Fixes will grow ever more costly as decisions are delayed, and the probability increases of even greater problems in the future, infrastructure experts say. Every six-month delay in making decisions drives hundreds of millions of dollars in future inflationary costs.

A new business plan, approved by the state rail authority on Tuesday, presents an ambitious 2033 completion date — but offers few details about how it can be executed on time. Based on the authority's own cost and schedule figures, meeting the deadline would require spending about $4.6 billion per year that doesn't exist, an average of nearly $13 million per calendar day — a staggering construction rate never approached in U.S. history.

"Successful projects have adequate funding and realistic plans from the start," said Bent Flyvbjerg, professor and chair of Major Programme Management at Oxford University's Said Business School and one of the world's top experts on high-speed rail projects. "They don't say we are optimistic about the budget. California is unusual in the degree of uncertainty. It is very risky."

Over the last decade, three independent advisory panels and the chairmen of three legislative committees have told the state rail authority that basing plans on uncertain funding would undermine the system's long-term success.

Those warnings were repeated in recent weeks, when the Legislative Analyst's Office and the state-appointed peer review committee told lawmakers that the 2018 business plan is "not viable." The U.S. Department of Transportation inspector general and the state auditor have launched inquiries into the project in recent months as well.

Democratic gubernatorial candidates Gavin Newsom and John Chiang and Republican candidates John Cox and Travis Allen declined requests for interviews on the issue or did not return phone calls. Delaine Eastin could not be reached when her staff was contacted Tuesday.

Of the leading candidates, only Antonio Villaraigosa, a Democrat, discussed how he would fix the project. In an interview, he said the bullet train would become an economic engine for the state and that he would find private investors that can plug the funding gap — despite the state's failure in recent years to attract such capital. He wants to streamline permitting and find ways to cut costs, he said. More state money isn't likely, he said, and he stopped short of giving his full support to some of the financing schemes that the rail authority wants to use.

In a recent debate, Democratic candidates said they wanted to keep the project going, though they did not address its problems. Eastin has said she would impose an oil severance tax on petroleum producers that could be used to finance the bullet train.

Cox has said he would kill the project, though it isn't clear how he would unwind the project without violating federal grant agreements. Allen also said in a debate that he would end the project.

The forces restraining detailed discussion of the project's future grow out of many fears: the consequences of betraying Brown, the scant political payoff in discussing government dysfunction, the possibility that the problems have no legitimate solutions and the potential of alienating the rail system's supporters. The backers, including organized labor, the construction industry and engineering consultants, have poured millions of dollars of contributions into the political system over the last decade and many show up at every hearing in the state Capitol.

"They can't talk about it," said Art Bauer, a retired Senate staffer who was involved in launching the project. "You can't fix it as it is currently conceptualized. And anything you say could alienate your base. There is a lot of support for high-speed rail among Democrats. They just want the government to find a way to make it work."

Brown has tightly controlled the politics of the project, owing to his mastery of using the power of his office and his vast personal campaign war chest, political analysts say. Appointees to the rail authority board have never strayed from what Brown sought and have until recently minimized any serious public examination of the problems they face in monthly meetings. Brown declined a request for an interview.

The California political system has benefited from nearly $8 million in contributions to candidates, propositions and other organizations in the last decade by the engineering and construction firms working on the project, according to an analysis of contribution reports. Building trade unions involved in the project have contributed more than $1.3 million directly to Newsom, Villaraigosa and Chiang.

Minor candidates, who garner little public attention, have articulated some of the clearest strategies on high-speed rail. Michael Shellenberger, an environmentalist Democrat, said in an interview he wants to kill the project because the world is on the cusp of a transportation revolution with autonomous vehicles that will soon offer much higher speeds than existing automobiles. He believes the project cost will likely exceed $100 billion, which he says the state can't afford as it grapples with a housing crisis, falling support for education and the loss of middle-class jobs.

Robert Griffis, a retired engineer and Democrat, says the project was a good idea but was hijacked as a profit machine by the organizations that put it on the ballot. "It is going to be psychologically difficult to admit its failure," he said. His priority would be reducing the state's debt.

Bauer, the former Senate staffer, believes the next governor will have to call a timeout and do a forensic analysis of what can realistically be accomplished and what is "pie in the sky."

Programs that encounter higher costs and long delays often "get completed in some shape or form, but they have a tormented process," said Flyvbjerg, the Oxford expert. He pointed to Berlin Brandenburg Airport, which is set to open in a couple years about a decade behind schedule at a cost that by some estimates has quadrupled to more than $11 billion.

Legislators have already been urged by the peer review panel to consider options that would make high-speed rail more affordable.

The options, say various analysts, watchdogs and critics, include: curtailing service to San Jose by entering the Bay Area through Altamont Pass; eliminating tunnels through the San Gabriel Mountains by using the existing Metrolink corridor; eliminating a 1.3-mile tunnel under downtown San Francisco; relocating a heavy maintenance facility from the Central Valley; and halting future construction until a realistic funding plan is developed.

The rail authority, in its 2018 business plan, foresees a different path, hoping that the Legislature will act by about 2020 to extend greenhouse gas fees, which have contributed $1.7 billion to the project so far. The existing program would expire in 2030, so the rail authority wants that extended to 2050. Under its plan, the rail authority would be granted legal authority to issue bonds against its share of future fees. That would raise an estimated $4 billion to $11 billion. But the plan may have to be approved by voters and could encounter resistance when Brown is gone.

Officials close to the project say the underlying strategy is to get the project so far along that it would compel the state to finish it, even if the cost grows and the schedule slips. It is a well-worn approach to all kinds of federal, state and local projects, including weapons systems and subways.

Even with that cap-and-trade infusion, however, the project would be short at least $50 billion. The state has had no success since 2010 in getting additional federal support. Thirty-six private firms told the state in 2015 that they would not invest anything in the project without a guarantee that they could not lose money, a demand that would violate the terms of the 2008 bond act.

And pumping more state money into the project would put it in competition with other high-priority goals that have their own power constituencies like single-payer healthcare, an expanded program for the homeless, and shoring up the higher-education system to stem increases in tuition. Then there are demands for local transit, highway repairs, greenhouse gas reduction, water supply projects and much else at least as important to many constituents as high-speed rail.

"Obviously, single-payer is more critical than the bullet train," said Chuck Idelson, spokesman for the California Nurses Assn. "If you don't have health, you don't have anything. It is worth [it for] the state to examine all of its priorities individually to see whether it is appropriate to spend that money on the bullet train."

A strong argument is also raised for affordable housing, which not only affects people living on the street but also those priced out of cities and forced to endure long commutes, said Gary Toebben, president of the Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce.

"The long-term priorities for the state should be education, housing, water and transportation," he said.

The bullet train isn't necessarily part of that mix, though the chamber has supported the project.

"It is harder and harder to justify every year," Toebben said. "It doesn't rise to the level of something we have to have."

"

 

nlogax

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Looks like Governor Newsom has cancelled the longer term aim of reaching LA. The scope's been reduced to the end of the current phase which will take the line from Merced south to Bakersfield.

https://abc7news.com/politics/gov-newsom-ending-high-speed-rail-project-between-sf-la/5134644/

"SACRAMENTO, Calif. --
California Gov. Gavin Newsom announced Tuesday he's abandoning a plan to build a high-speed rail line between Los Angeles and San Francisco, a project with an estimated cost that has ballooned to $77 billion.

"Let's be real," Newsom said in his first State of the State address. "The current project, as planned, would cost too much and respectfully take too long. There's been too little oversight and not enough transparency."

The idea long championed by Newsom's predecessor, Jerry Brown, is years behind schedule. The latest estimate for completion is 2033."
 

philabos

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About time.
A bunch of highway guys led by political bureaucrats trying to build a railroad.
To be fair, anyone trying to build anything in the US has monumental environmental and legal obstacles to overcome, particularly in California.
 

MarkyT

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The Central Valley section they still want to finish, between Merced and Bakersfield, is the easiest, straightest, flattest and fastest segment, and it covers a significant proportion of the overall distance between San Francisco / Sacremento and Los Angeles so with some out of the box thinking long distance trains between the major city clusters should still be possible with some classic route running beyond each extremity. South of Bakersfield, the proposed route to LA over Tehachapi pass and through Palmdale was very controversial as it is a long way round at the same time as being very difficult and expensive. A alternative shorter and more direct route through the mountains might now be considered in the long run. At the north (Merced) end it may be possible to improve existing routes to gain access to SF and Sacramento. The run from San Jose into SF was always going to be over improved 'classic' tracks anyway that are shared with Caltrain local commuter services, and this portion of route is being electrified now.
 

philabos

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The Central Valley section they still want to finish, between Merced and Bakersfield, is the easiest, straightest, flattest and fastest segment, and it covers a significant proportion of the overall distance between San Francisco / Sacremento and Los Angeles so with some out of the box thinking long distance trains between the major city clusters should still be possible with some classic route running beyond each extremity.

South of Bakersfield, the proposed route to LA over Tehachapi pass and through Palmdale was very controversial as it is a long way round at the same time as being very difficult and expensive. A alternative shorter and more direct route through the mountains might now be considered in the long run. At the north (Merced) end it may be possible to improve existing routes to gain access to SF and Sacramento. The run from San Jose into SF was always going to be over improved 'classic' tracks anyway that are shared with Caltrain local commuter services, and this portion of route is being electrified now.

Yes, the Central Valley portion will be finished under this proposal. North of Merced, trains will still have to travel over BNSF which is not and will not be electrified. Probably zero thought given to this yet, but that probably means use of existing conventional equipment.
South of Bakersfield is part of the rock upon which this proposal foundered. The existing route is non competitive for passenger. The tunnel alternatives were deemed too expensive, along with strong community opposition to the proposal.
On the north end, the original proposal envisioned HSR on an elevated right of way. The second proposal envisioned an expanded Caltrain right of way north of San Jose. Both were shot down by community interests with the support of Governor Brown, if not founder, the main proponent of CAHSR. What you describe is the third version, using the existing primarily double track system at 110mph over 40 plus at grade crossings. Shared with multi stop commuter trains. I doubt even UK controllers could handle that scenario.
In order to reach the Caltrain route, another segment from Gilroy to San Jose would also be restricted to 110mph over yet and additional 30 plus crossings against the opposition of the railroad which owns the route.
In summary, the Central Valley route was unsuccessfully opposed by locals, but opposition at both ends (presumably those it was intended to benefit) proved the undoing of CAHSR.
The fact that we are now 10 years and billions of dollars into this with nothing to show could not have helped.
Meanwhile, you can still fly from LAX to SFO in about the same time frame.
 

MarkyT

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... What you describe is the third version, using the existing primarily double track system at 110mph over 40 plus at grade crossings. Shared with multi stop commuter trains. I doubt even UK controllers could handle that scenario.
I understand the work incorporates some fairly long sections of dynamic four tracking so limited stop Caltrain express services can overtake locals stopping at all stations. The high speed services would also clearly use the fast tracks in these localities.
In order to reach the Caltrain route, another segment from Gilroy to San Jose would also be restricted to 110mph over yet and additional 30 plus crossings against the opposition of the railroad which owns the route.
Level crossings are the bane of many US urban areas especially once you get out of the north east. Similar with former Brightline Virgin Trains US on Florida East Coast. Best hope is a long term plan to reduce their number gradually in cooperation with local authorities and equip those remaining with obstacle detection technology linked into signals and PTC, and a programme of 'sealed corridor' work to fully fence the urban railway and exclude trespassers. If the crossings have to be closed to road traffic for longer for each train then so be it. Then it might be argued that speeds and frequencies can be increased.
 

ac6000cw

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South of Bakersfield is part of the rock upon which this proposal foundered.

Yes, almost literally given the costs of serious tunneling under the mountains (in an earthquake-prone part of the world as well).

Bakersfield-LA is the real 'missing link' in the current California passenger rail system (and using the existing Tehachapi Pass line would be much too slow and roundabout, even if the capacity was available), but building a new line instead is almost in the 'act of faith' category due to the costs.
 

philabos

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Unfortunately most station stops do not have passing tracks, although there is some multi track, not nearly enough. Caltrain also has plans to add even more trains. Too much show for the tent.

There are so many crossings that you would have to elevate the railroad for long distances. Local authorities have zero interest in closing. If you think HSR upset the locals, just try an elevated railroad. Remember that was Plan A. Even Brown could not sell it at the time, Newsome would not even try to exhume that cadaver.

Although I support rail where practical and necessary, there are many flights between SFO and LAX daily which don't seem to have issues. This has always been a solution in search of a problem.
California could have purchased the coast line for a tiny fraction of this cost. It would not ever by HSR but would be useful for intermediate points. It also has the the great advantage of already being in existence.
 

philabos

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We will not know the final bill until or if they even construct the mini line.
The consultants and lawyers sure made a pile though. The old saying "the longer it takes, the more we make" applies. "Shovel ready" in 2009.
Now the federal government wants its money back. Guess that will depend on the grant language, but doubt it will ever happen anyway.
The really sad thing is we will never see any large scale rail project for at least a generation.
The well has been poisoned.
 

WatcherZero

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Trumps specifically said hes punishing California by asking for the money back in retaliation for the 14 states filing the legal challenge to his Wall national emergency declaration diversion in the Northern Californian court. He does partially have a case in that the grant is for environmental mitigation measures along the full length of the line though they could counter argue that the measures are still being deployed along the vast majority of the route.
 

SemaphoreSam

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Trumps specifically said hes punishing California by asking for the money back in retaliation for the 14 states filing the legal challenge to his Wall national emergency declaration diversion in the Northern Californian court. He does partially have a case in that the grant is for environmental mitigation measures along the full length of the line though they could counter argue that the measures are still being deployed along the vast majority of the route.

Legal precedent sez, "Complete the project, or return the money." Sam
 

philabos

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Trumps specifically said hes punishing California by asking for the money back in retaliation for the 14 states filing the legal challenge to his Wall national emergency declaration diversion in the Northern Californian court. He does partially have a case in that the grant is for environmental mitigation measures along the full length of the line though they could counter argue that the measures are still being deployed along the vast majority of the route.
I can not find a source where Trump said that, but he says so many things ,I may have overlooked.
Newsom has certainly accused him of that.
In the end, it really doesn't matter what Trump said.
The money already spent is gone. Ron Batory, Federal Railroad Administration, has said California failed to fulfill the agreement on many fronts, but that really doesn't matter either. Even if Batory is right, and he probably is, California will simply tie up the issue in court to delay until a friendly administration appears appears and all will be forgiven.
There is about a billion dollars left that has not been dispersed from Washington. California can probably kiss that goodbye.
This has been a fiasco of the first order.
 

WatcherZero

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As I understand its theres two separate grants in question. One for $2bn for land acquisition which they have spent and one for $1bn for the environmental mitigation that they received in 2010 that's still sitting in the bank unspent. That's the one hes asking California to return.
 
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