Wallsendmag
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I see that Northern are introducing Penalty Fares in the North East from 18th March has anyone seen any details?
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Northern Penalty Fares Areas
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They have updated the Penalty Fares section of the website with the updated areas from 18th March. The additions in North East seem to be the Durham Coast line, Darlington to Newcastle (ECML) and Darlington to Bishop Auckland.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares
They've had Penalty Fares down this end of the Saltburn line since December and also down the Durham Coast.
I've yet to see a single RPI or PF being issued though!
The map shown at the link in #2 shows no Penalty Fares on the Saltburn line...
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Strangely enough the announcement was on the departure boards on every Northern service. Make sure you buy your ticket before you travel etc.....
Huh. Well there were posters up at Middlesbrough and I could have sworn it was to extend the scheme to Saltburn!
Ahh it was Middlesbrough to Whitby that went over to Penalty Fares. Got my wires crossed.
Lytham Local
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Just had a look at the map. Areas in red are now penalty fare areas. I don't see any 'red'. There's plenty of pinky purple though.
Surely in this day and age of disbaility discrimination, colour coding a map is breaching every rule under the sun.
Also, why is Moss Side (next station to Lytham, Lancs) in the pinky purple zone when it doesn't have ticket purchasing facilities at the station? I'm sure that there are many stations in that boat.
Surely in this day and age of disbaility discrimination, colour coding a map is breaching every rule under the sun.
Also, why is Moss Side (next station to Lytham, Lancs) in the pinky purple zone when it doesn't have ticket purchasing facilities at the station? I'm sure that there are many stations in that boat.
I wonder if an extension to Saltburn would see a TVM dumped at British Steel Redcar 
Which rules are these then that are being broken and has anyone told TfL yet?
mallard
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Apart from the text mentioning "red" and "green" while the map uses (two different shades of, for some unexplained reason) purple and teal, (and I completely agree that providing such information only in the form of a colour-coded map is actively hostile to people with accessibility needs; Northern are obviously aware of the need to provide information in an accessible format as they provide a video explaining the scheme at the bottom of he page) there are also plenty of places where the status is unclear from the map..
Penalty fares are supposed to be dependent only on the station and TOC, not train route (and a quick reading of the legislation seems to confirm this). That means that the odd bit of blue connecting the two Wakefield stations makes no sense, and nor is it at all clear how to interpret the map for stations that have both blue and purple lines emanating from them. Either the station is part of Northern's PF scheme or it isn't. A map like this is extremely misleading; it gives the impression that you could be PF'd if you board at a "blue" station if the train continues into a "red" route or that you couldn't be PF'd in the opposite situation.
Even the National Rail website, which claims:
Is mostly fiction. There is no information (that I can see) on the station information about penalty fares pages for most stations; only those in the South East seem to have such information. Another disappointing instance of the rail industry misleading and keeping secrets from their customers...
Penalty fares are supposed to be dependent only on the station and TOC, not train route (and a quick reading of the legislation seems to confirm this). That means that the odd bit of blue connecting the two Wakefield stations makes no sense, and nor is it at all clear how to interpret the map for stations that have both blue and purple lines emanating from them. Either the station is part of Northern's PF scheme or it isn't. A map like this is extremely misleading; it gives the impression that you could be PF'd if you board at a "blue" station if the train continues into a "red" route or that you couldn't be PF'd in the opposite situation.
Even the National Rail website, which claims:
Is mostly fiction. There is no information (that I can see) on the station information about penalty fares pages for most stations; only those in the South East seem to have such information. Another disappointing instance of the rail industry misleading and keeping secrets from their customers...
ForTheLoveOf
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The requirement in the Regulations is that Penalty Fare signage is displayed either at, or before, the entrance to the platform on your origin station, or at, or before, the entrance to the platform if changing en-route. In other words, you must have passed Regulations-compliant signage before you can be issued with a Penalty Fare, and the concept of route-based schemes no longer exists.
mallard
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Yes, I know... I'm not sure how that's relevant. As we all know, PF signage is usually non-compliant anyway.
Signage at stations doesn't exempt TOCs from providing accurate and accessible information prior to travelling. National Rail Enquires seems to know nothing at all about any non-South East PF schemes (apart from putting some TOC logos on one page) and Northern's information is unclear (is Goole a PF station? what about Skipton?) and misleading (a customer may very legitimately believe that the PF scheme doesn't apply to intra-Wakefield journeys). All it would take to vastly improve the information available would to provide a simple, alphabetical list of PF stations, yet for some reason Northern (and NRE) don't do this and choose to provide information that is objectively worse even though it takes more effort to do so.
ForTheLoveOf
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Agreed, it's not very helpful and I fear we will see some threads where people get charged in objectively questionable circumstances.
Wallsendmag
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The signs are displayed at the station entrance and on pillars around the station, strangely though we don't seem to have had any notification.
Was the ‘strangely’ meant sarcastically ?
Fawkes Cat
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I don't know Wakefield in the slightest, but are there many/significant numbers of/a few/no journeys between the Wakefield stations? Because this affects whether the poor graphics will actually cause a problem, or just demonstrate sloppy thinking by the railway company.
Wallsendmag
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I’ve had notification from Northern when previous Penalty Fares schemes have gone live.
Email for this one sent out 12th February.
swt class 450
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I imagine that Northern Rail are probably planning on making their entire network a Penalty Fare zone in the near future. We have seen TVMs (normally card only unfortunately) installed at tiny rural stations on the Southern Rail network such as - Pevensey Bay / Normans Bay / Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea / Appledore - and many others so i wouldn't be surprised if Northern Rail do the same even at their tiny rural stations.
ForTheLoveOf
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I wouldn't object to it, if the facilities are truly good enough. But unfortunately Northern's stock ticket machine is an awful piece of junk.
And what would you suggest as an alternative?
ForTheLoveOf
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I'm not the person you replied to, but a text-based list of the stations that are, and are to become, Penalty Fares stations might help.
Kite159
Veteran Member
There were staff at Thornaby yesterday handing out what appeared to be penalty fare information leaflets for passengers leaving a Saltburn - Darlington service.
Although no TVM has been installed at British Steel Redcar yet which must be an oversight
Although no TVM has been installed at British Steel Redcar yet which must be an oversight
Paul Duck
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Penalty fares will be in force on Middlesbrough to Newcastle services that run via Hartlepool along with Darlington to Bishop Auckland line. Northern services (4 a day) that call at Durham & Chester le Street will also be subject to being in the penalty fare zone. No penalty fares for Darlington to Saltburn services as we still haven't got any installed at Eaglescliffe. They are to heavy to come across the bridge so a re think is needed. Also no machines at Allen's West yet.
Lytham Local
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Not have penalty fares. Not hide behind rules and regulations. Have pro-active staff who do go up and down trains collecting fares. Simply fares so that you don't have to be Barry Doe to understand the system.
Some understanding that people don't actually read every sign and notice that is pinned up on every station, bus stop or notice board.
At the very least, if the poster says "red zone" just make sure that it is red and not 2 difference shades of purple.
Puffing Devil
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How do you deal with those who won't pay/refuse to pay?
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