That is true. I can't find those images on a quick Google search, but from memory, it was the TfW "capital T' above "Cymru a'r Gororau/Transport for Wales".
Apologies if wrong.
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Transport For Wales Livery
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Cardiff123
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I've edited the post now to include screenshots of the KA franchise award presentation.
anamyd
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Cymru a Gororau = Wales and Borders
Trafnidiaeth Cymru = Transport for Wales
It's "a'r", not "a". The Welsh word for "the" contracts to "'r" in this context.
anamyd
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I was right the very first time then damnit! Thanks
No worriesI was right the very first time then damnit! Thanks
tomos dafis
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You are correct but if it is to be "Cymru a'r Gororau" that translates directly as "Wales and the Borders" whereas the franchise title is Wales and Borders I thought.
More significantly, I was under the impression, as is Arriva 175 in post #175 above, that any units that potentially work acoss thd border into the Borders were required to carry "Wales and Borders" (with Welsh translation as well) included within the branding. I am Welsh living in Wales but I thought that rebranding of station signs in places like Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester and elsewhere in the Borders with stickers saying "Transport for Wales" only was rather surprising and insensitive to the residents served in these places - similarly with the cross-border working 175's branded in the same way.
TFW only branding is fine on stations within Wales and on trains working only within Wales (but any of the current units can work cross border so maybe TFW are having to pause and rethink?).
anamyd
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It was the same with Arriva Trains Wales though...?
tomos dafis
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Absolutely right, of course. But apparently some passengers in the Borders were unhappy with the lack of "and Borders" in the branding in English stations and cross border trains under the previous ATW franchise and had made representations during consultations on the new franchise to the effect that new branding should fully reflect all areas served.
anamyd
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i suppose it's a fair point. i can just imagine young people with small local stations on the Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton line telling their friends "the trains run in late evenings and at the weekends but they're run by Wales Trains"!
anamyd
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I don't usually like your third, fourth and fifth words, but assuming they were in response to tomos dafis, you might actually have a point! I don't get the last bit though, please explain...?
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craigybagel
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I'm being very careful what I say here because I really don't want to reopen the very tiresome debate about the rights and wrongs of a "Welsh" based company running services in England, but it's worth pointing out that our own opinions on the matter are irrelevant.
What does matter however, is this:
This is from the Government of Wales Act 2006/Railways Act 2005 (Page 36)
What does matter however, is this:
This is from the Government of Wales Act 2006/Railways Act 2005 (Page 36)
Dai Corner
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Discussion on TfW's English and cross-border services is in the following thread
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...branded-differently-e-g-wales-borders.171828/
Let's keep this one for liveries as the OP intended.
Ahh, I was being facetious.... long running rivalry between the two places
krus_aragon
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You're right in that would be the literal translation, but the difference arises because of a lack of the singular(?) word "a" (e.g. "a train") in Welsh, it doesn't use one at all. ("a train" = "trên" )
In English you can skip using "a" or "the" if the meaning is clear from context. You can't in Welsh, because by not saying "the" ("y" or "yr" ) you're implying that you mean "a".
As a result, " Cymru a Gororau" literally means "Wales and (some) Borders" , but we're not being specific about which Borders they are.
Language is fun!
craigybagel
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My post was relevant to this thread in my opinion; the latest unit to get reliveried hasn't been done in full because of the issue of Wales/Wales and borders - probably for the reason that I posted.
Dai Corner
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I wasn't criticising your post, just directing anyone interested in the 'and borders' issue in general rather than the liveries in particular to the other thread. Apologies if it came across like that.
craigybagel
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No problem, and my apologies in turn for my own reply!
Lot of work going on along the coast to the stations. Even some of the tiny Angelsey stops are getting new lights and a tidy up. Are the stations getting the same scheme too? (Seem a lot more proactive than Northern and LNR at getting their stations rebranded)
And to @anamyd 's point about getting mixed up, oh yes... They definitely do mix up their trains. As you're probably aware .The 1810 London Wrexham/Holyhead splits at Chester. Despite numerous times of telling people, you will still get someone for Wrexham ending up at Rhyl and Vice versa.
And to @anamyd 's point about getting mixed up, oh yes... They definitely do mix up their trains. As you're probably aware .The 1810 London Wrexham/Holyhead splits at Chester. Despite numerous times of telling people, you will still get someone for Wrexham ending up at Rhyl and Vice versa.
tomos dafis
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This is exactly what I was referring to. In both the consultation before the renewal of the W and B franchise and now in written evidence by Transport Focus to the Assembly Economy and Transport committee on Tuesday last reference is made to feedback from passengers in the Welsh borders to the lack of the words "and Borders" in the original ATW branding and the new TFW version. Most people are not worried as long as clean, reliable, punctual trains with available seats turn up. The fact remains that feedback to consultations shows SOME people consider this an issue and they can point to the wording of legislation and the Agency Agreement and the Order transferring powers over the franchise to WG to support their case. This MAY mean TFW have been left to consider further their branding of trains. So still relevant to livery and branding of TFW trains.
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tomos dafis
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Absolutely correct of course. Thank you for that very clear and useful reminder to someone who is re-learning Welsh ! Absolutely spot on !You're right in that would be the literal translation, but the difference arises because of a lack of the singular(?) word "a" (e.g. "a train") in Welsh, it doesn't use one at all. ("a train" = "trên" )
In English you can skip using "a" or "the" if the meaning is clear from context. You can't in Welsh, because by not saying "the" ("y" or "yr" ) you're implying that you mean "a".
As a result, " Cymru a Gororau" literally means "Wales and (some) Borders" , but we're not being specific about which Borders they are.
Language is fun!
anamyd
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Like, that actually happens...? Amazing
Like, that actually happens...? Amazing
Yes, it does, a lot!! However, I do think the public in this country are so conditioned into thinking that the railway is a complete disaster zone that they genuinely can't accept that it works normally a lot of the time. So need constant reassurance that it is working normally. I think whether you are staff, enthusiast, (or both) we can all agree on here that we look for the best in the railway, and want it to do well. The general public who commute or use it as an occasional thing just don't see it that way. (I hate the phrase 'Normals' and refuse to use it!!)
krus_aragon
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I expect it also happens with Aberystwyth/Cambrian Coast passengers too, but they've got the excuse that their train reverses at Shrewsbury: "is it front portion before Shrewsbury for the Coast, or front portion after Shrewsbury?"Like, that actually happens...? Amazing
Thankfully, with a shorter train, and through corridors, the guard can walk the length of the train and put people right, long before Dovey Jn.
Edit: in the short term, they'll be able to announce certain services as "red and white carriages for Aberystwyth, Green for Pwllheli" !
anamyd
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Maybe they should leave some in ATW for this reasonEdit: in the short term, they'll be able to announce certain services as "red and white carriages for Aberystwyth, Green for Pwllheli" !
TT-ONR-NRN
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I really think the 175s in the new livery look really impressive, it makes them look more like a long distance mainline train!
Y Ddraig Coch
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You would think one of the cheapest and easiest things before the full livery to change would be the coach letters......
Apparently not ....
Apparently not ....
I’ve noticed the ticket reservations still have Arriva too. Very simple and quick fix that’s somehow been overlooked. Unless of corse, they have a few million to get rid of first?
Y Ddraig Coch
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Then if they do, the purchasing manager should be one of the first to go. The contract end date was well known.
As someone who purchases into 6 figures. I wouldn't have a job if I bought figures way past a definite end date
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