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Did Beeching wante to retain track beds on all the lines recommended for closure?

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tom73

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Is it true that Beeching wanted to keep the track beds intact on all the lines recommended for closure? Marples rejected Beeching's request apparently wanting the closed lines completely gone. Could it be surmised that Beeching was much less of a railway villain than Marples himself?
Much like a WW2 German soldier, Beeching was only following orders.
 
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yorksrob

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On the first point, I doubt this very much as land sales were supposed to contribute towards removing the railway's deficit.

On the second point, most definitely not. Before being appointed Chairman of BR, Dr Beeching served on a Government committee chaired by Sir Ivan Stedeford to look at ways of reducing the cost of running the railway. Accounts suggest that he was one of the more hawkish members of this committee in proposing route closures, and it was this shared outlook with Marples that led to his appointment as Chairman of BR.

I would recommend reading 'Holding the Line, How Britains Railways Were Won' by Chris Austin and Richard Faulkner for more information.
 

Taunton

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I don't think Marples was a villain either. Just because he was a significant shareholder in a civil engineering company didn't mean he was pro-roads either; civils companies build railways and non-transport structures just as much. And Britain was doing no more than all other principal countries, rebuilding their roads structure as road vehicles had rapidly developed to become a very mainstream transport medium.

However, the government was seriously hacked at the inability of the rail industry to advance, instead of sticking with the approaches of past generations, at the considerable amount of the system serving little or no useful purpose, and the poor investment decisions such as the modernisation plan that, while some was straightforward, had also spent considerable amounts of capital on nonsense schemes. You don't even have to read Beeching - Gerry Fiennes' books have plenty of examples of this squandering of resources. Fiennes, Beeching, and the others of their generation could all see it, but were swamped by traditional inertia. You only have to look at the overbuilding of the initial stages of the WCML electrification, wiring every road in yards where all the work was done by diesel shunters, and many other similar aspects.

Marples signed off a lot of expenditure for proper Inter-City stock, Diesels that finally worked and had sufficient power, Merry-go-Round coal, the first Freightliners, cwr, power signalling, and such like. The railways were not generating any cash of their own - that was all government money. All the revenue was pretty much spent on half a million staff.
 

Dr Hoo

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Hmm... Not often that I agree with yorksrob on Beeching threads but he is quite right on the land sale point. As I have often pointed out, there was a desperate shortage of cash for British Railways in the early 1960s. There was no proper statutory basis for losses or subsidies and cost were increasing rapidly, not least because of the Guillebaud Report recommending a significant increase in railway staff's chronically low pay. Any surplus assets - track-beds, rails, rolling stock - were sold off as quickly as possible to generate funds.

Although he has received little historical credit for it Marples was a genuinely progressive thinker (and actor). He was an early adopter of cost-benefit analysis (which justified the Victoria Line), commissioned the Buchanan Report into 'Traffic in Towns' and started to work up plans for multi-modal transport authorities in metropolitan areas. These were picked up by Barbara Castle in particular and worked into Passenger Transport Executives under the Transport Act 1968. Gradually people became aware of the importance of land use planning and protecting corridors for various transport modes.

The 1960s are a fascinating period for transport and political historians to study but sadly few make the effort.
 

exile

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Looking at the Railways objectively in 1963 it would be hard to avoid the conclusions
1. Car ownership was increasing rapidly and reducing the potential market for passenger rail travel
2. Most freight traffic lost money (very much so in the case of the much missed pickup goods pottering along branch lines once a week or so)
3. Rural train services were far more expensive to run than bus services, thus if rural transport had to be subsidised it would
make more sense to subsidise buses.

There was no reason at the time to think these were going to change in the foreseeable future.

Beeching was told to make the railways profitable, or at least to break even. The only profitable or potentially profitable
traffic was - bulk freight; express passenger.

Given the above, the 1963 report more or less wrote itself.

Currently, the government accepts that it must subsidise rail services (curiously, it no longer accepts the case for subsidising bus services, which are now rapidly disappearing in rural areas). This was not the case in the early 60s.
 

edwin_m

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Looking at the Railways objectively in 1963 it would be hard to avoid the conclusions
1. Car ownership was increasing rapidly and reducing the potential market for passenger rail travel
2. Most freight traffic lost money (very much so in the case of the much missed pickup goods pottering along branch lines once a week or so)
3. Rural train services were far more expensive to run than bus services, thus if rural transport had to be subsidised it would
make more sense to subsidise buses.

There was no reason at the time to think these were going to change in the foreseeable future.
I think it was foreseeable in the 1960s that the development of cheap and reliable cars would soon start giving rise to mass car ownership and traffic congestion which would soon cripple the buses (equally cheap and reliable at the time) in urban areas. The "Traffic in Towns" report said as much in 1963. So I believe a focus on integration of the rail and bus networks, with rail providing trunk links into congested towns and cities and buses feeding in to serve areas where traffic congestion was unlikely, would have achieved a better result. This would of course have cost money and wasn't done. Instead there were some half-hearted attempts at integration, but little in the way of integrated timetabling and even less in integrated ticketing.
 

yorksrob

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When considering the modernisation plan, one shouldn't forget the actions of the Government of the day, which had been in power since 1951, and had done nothing to retract policies such as the common carrier obligation, and no doubt approved of going out to different companies for loco designs etc to support industry.

In these circumstances it seems entirely justified for BR to accept this as policy and invest in marshalling yards etc, rather than more Kent electrification type schemes (which in hindsight would have been much more useful). Marples was effectively punishing the railway (and its passengers) for his own Government's poor policy decisions.
 

Gwenllian2001

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Is it true that Beeching wanted to keep the track beds intact on all the lines recommended for closure? Marples rejected Beeching's request apparently wanting the closed lines completely gone. Could it be surmised that Beeching was much less of a railway villain than Marples himself?
Much like a WW2 German soldier, Beeching was only following orders.
I don't think that Beeching had anything to do with it but there was a clause in the 1962 Transport Act that required that certain rail formations be retained for strategic reasons. One such was The Riverside Branch in Cardiff. This seems to have been ignored because the line was obstructed by a factory building after a few years, which is particularly irritating since the old Clarence Road Station was replaced by a smart new building in the late Fifties. The subsequent redevelopment of the area has seen the Senedd Building and Millennium Centre placed within a stone's throw of the of the old terminus. Had the right of way been maintained it would have become a very busy branch. It was, by no stretch of the imagination, a 'dead duck' even at the time closure with through services to Penarth, Barry and the Vale of Glamorgan.
 

coppercapped

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I don't think that Beeching had anything to do with it but there was a clause in the 1962 Transport Act that required that certain rail formations be retained for strategic reasons. One such was The Riverside Branch in Cardiff. This seems to have been ignored because the line was obstructed by a factory building after a few years, which is particularly irritating since the old Clarence Road Station was replaced by a smart new building in the late Fifties. The subsequent redevelopment of the area has seen the Senedd Building and Millennium Centre placed within a stone's throw of the of the old terminus. Had the right of way been maintained it would have become a very busy branch. It was, by no stretch of the imagination, a 'dead duck' even at the time closure with through services to Penarth, Barry and the Vale of Glamorgan.
Are you sure that there was such a provision in the 1962 Act? The closest I can find is in Clause 11, Development of Land

(2) Each Board may, in particular, and subject to this section,-
(a)retain any part of their land which is not required for the purposes of their business and develop it for use by other persons, and
(b)where the use of their land for the purposes of their business can be combined with its use for other purposes, develop the land by constructing or adapting buildings thereon for use wholly or partly by other persons,

with a view to selling or otherwise disposing of any right or interest in the land or, as the case may be, the buildings or any part of the buildings, after the development is carried out.

The constraint was that the Boards could not use their own money for such developments if the development was not connected with their main business. So the railways could not spend their money on building an office block on their land, even if it wasn't used for railways any more.

There is no explicit mention of the Riverside Branch - unless it is implicitly listed in the lists of repealed, or partially repealed, earlier Acts of Parliament. In fact I can find no mention whatsoever of the need to retain lines or formations. The Act is purely concerned with the setting up of the various Boards to replace the British Transport Commission, defining their responsibilities and financial framework and those of the Transport Consultative Committees and the legal framework in which they operated. Individual lines are not mentioned - except in passing in the list of earlier Acts which are affected by the 1962 Act
 

Dr Hoo

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I was always under the impression that 'protection' of closed lines would be pursuant to Section 56(11) of the Transport Act 1962 whereby: "the Minister may give consent [to a closure] subject to such conditions as he thinks fit and may from time to time vary those conditions..."

I seem to recall that certain service withdrawals were 'sweetened' by a promise that the track would remain open to freight or be left dormant for up to x years or that at least the alignment would be protected. Obviously any minister might change their mind or a successor could 'vary' the condition so it was no real protection subject to further statutory oversight.
 

coppercapped

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I was always under the impression that 'protection' of closed lines would be pursuant to Section 56(11) of the Transport Act 1962 whereby: "the Minister may give consent [to a closure] subject to such conditions as he thinks fit and may from time to time vary those conditions..."

I seem to recall that certain service withdrawals were 'sweetened' by a promise that the track would remain open to freight or be left dormant for up to x years or that at least the alignment would be protected. Obviously any minister might change their mind or a successor could 'vary' the condition so it was no real protection subject to further statutory oversight.
Oh, absolutely. I understood that Gwenllian2001 in post 8 was suggesting that there was a specific commitment made in the 1962 Act to retain the formation of the Riverside branch in Cardiff. My point was that there was no explicit statement to retain the formation of ANY closed route, but as you point out the Minister could make such a condition, just as he could require the supply of additional bus services. But this was very much on a case-to-case basis and not a general case in the 1962 Act.
Pedants, huh? Don'tcha love 'em? !
 

Gwenllian2001

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Oh, absolutely. I understood that Gwenllian2001 in post 8 was suggesting that there was a specific commitment made in the 1962 Act to retain the formation of the Riverside branch in Cardiff. My point was that there was no explicit statement to retain the formation of ANY closed route, but as you point out the Minister could make such a condition, just as he could require the supply of additional bus services. But this was very much on a case-to-case basis and not a general case in the 1962 Act.
Pedants, huh? Don'tcha love 'em? !
Oh, absolutely. I understood that Gwenllian2001 in post 8 was suggesting that there was a specific commitment made in the 1962 Act to retain the formation of the Riverside branch in Cardiff. My point was that there was no explicit statement to retain the formation of ANY closed route, but as you point out the Minister could make such a condition, just as he could require the supply of additional bus services. But this was very much on a case-to-case basis and not a general case in the 1962 Act.
Pedants, huh? Don'tcha love 'em? !
It was, of course, a long time ago but I have a memory of a list being published that detailed a few routes that would be protected for 'strategic purposes'. In the case of the Riverside Branch, which is the one I remember because it was served by trains from my local station. There could be more than one reason for wanting to protect the route. 1. Access to Cardiff Docks by an alternative route from the west or the Valleys via Penarth Curve. 2. Conversion of the Roath Branch into the Eastern Avenue road which cut off that approach to the docks. Whatever the intention was, it was certainly included in a published list of rights of way to be retained. I might still have that list somewhere. If I find it, I'll pass it on.
 

Taunton

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Contrary to the belief of many here, the various lines closed to passengers served an ever decreasing value to any passengers, and have continued to do so. Typically, they were built in the wrong place, with stations not convenient for passengers' actual origins and destinations. Notably, where they are convenient, services have been retained. But once buses became practical around 1930, driving right through the village and then down the High Street of the town every 15 minutes, half a dozen trains a day between remote-ish stations just did not cut it. Then came cars, which started when you, not somebody else, were ready to start, and went right to your ultimate destination by the most direct route.

It's a longstanding myth among many on here that just because a station has the name of a given place, it is somehow convenient for everyone travelling there. The Waterloo to Exeter line apparently serves Yeovil just because there is a station with the town's name, despite it being three miles out of town. The railway has had over 150 years to fix this sort of thing, but has never done so - they haven't even fixed in all that time the Circle Line of the London Underground passing right in front of Euston, the busiest long distance station in London, and yet not having a couple of platforms there.
 

yorksrob

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Contrary to the belief of many here, the various lines closed to passengers served an ever decreasing value to any passengers, and have continued to do so. Typically, they were built in the wrong place, with stations not convenient for passengers' actual origins and destinations. Notably, where they are convenient, services have been retained. But once buses became practical around 1930, driving right through the village and then down the High Street of the town every 15 minutes, half a dozen trains a day between remote-ish stations just did not cut it. Then came cars, which started when you, not somebody else, were ready to start, and went right to your ultimate destination by the most direct route.

It's a longstanding myth among many on here that just because a station has the name of a given place, it is somehow convenient for everyone travelling there. The Waterloo to Exeter line apparently serves Yeovil just because there is a station with the town's name, despite it being three miles out of town. The railway has had over 150 years to fix this sort of thing, but has never done so - they haven't even fixed in all that time the Circle Line of the London Underground passing right in front of Euston, the busiest long distance station in London, and yet not having a couple of platforms there.

Only true in limited cases. Thinking of Sussex as an example, a lot of stations which were closed - Hailsham, Heathfield, Steyning, Southwater, Henfield, as well as some which were proposed for closure, but which weren't - Uckfield, Crowborough, Edenbridge Town, Rye etc were very well sited for their settlements.

Of those closed, Steyning, Henfield and Southwater were on a line acknowledged to be 'marginal' at worst, whilst Hailsham had to be retained as a South facing branch until 1968.

The idea that all the stations closed were in the middle of nowhere is a self-comforting myth put forward by the closure programmes apologists.
 

RLBH

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It's a longstanding myth among many on here that just because a station has the name of a given place, it is somehow convenient for everyone travelling there. The Waterloo to Exeter line apparently serves Yeovil just because there is a station with the town's name, despite it being three miles out of town. The railway has had over 150 years to fix this sort of thing, but has never done so - they haven't even fixed in all that time the Circle Line of the London Underground passing right in front of Euston, the busiest long distance station in London, and yet not having a couple of platforms there.
One can't help but wonder how the railway network might have looked had there been a central plan from the outset. It would probably still have been deeply flawed in some way, but they'd be different flaws.
 

Lucan

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Typically, [stations] were built in the wrong place.... But once buses became practical around 1930, driving right through the village and then down the High Street of the town every 15 minutes, half a dozen trains a day between remote-ish stations just did not cut it.
Back in the mid 1800s, many towns resisted having stations conveniently near the centre (still do). The Cambridge University authorities for example though it would be too convenient for the undergrads to nip off to the sin city of London during term.

It's a longstanding myth among many on here that just because a station has the name of a given place, it is somehow convenient for everyone travelling there.
I doubt that anyone here thinks anything of the sort.

they haven't even fixed in all that time the Circle Line of the London Underground passing right in front of Euston ... and yet not having a couple of platforms there.
Being fixed right now I believe. The east end of the Circle platforms are close to Euston, but the exit from the Circle platforms are at the west end. A more convenient subway is being dug directly between the stations. Of course, the westward extension of Euston for HS2 brings it nearer to Euston Square anyway.

Ironically, it is now an advantage for a station not to be in the centre of town because it makes it easier to drive to and park. That's why Parkway stations have been created.
 

RLBH

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Ironically, it is now an advantage for a station not to be in the centre of town because it makes it easier to drive to and park. That's why Parkway stations have been created.
That depends very much on whether the town envisages people coming to it, or people leaving it. It would clearly be ludicrous to close all the Central London termini and replace them with Parkway stations on the M25, for example.
 

Lucan

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You need both. Like trains going to/from Bristol Temple Meads stop at Bristol Parkway too. HS2 will also have out-of-centre stops at each end. Out in the sticks a station can be in the middle of no-where, and get a lot of custom because it has a good car park, acting as a car-train transfer point for a wide area.

I'm sure that people living in eg the Cirencester area are happier for their nearest station to be in Kemble (and not even in the centre of that) rather than in the middle of Cirencester, unless they do themselves happen to live in the middle of Cirencester. But not a high proportion of people live in town or village centres these days like they did in 1850; they are mostly in suburbs or satellite housing estates, and expect to drive a car to the station and be able to park there, if they use trains at all.
 
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