First Group: General Discussion

overthewater said:

Well we see a news report at 7am tomorrow, or has everything been a lie?

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When QS was sold on there was a notification and news story on the staff app around this time (4am). Nothing at the moment. The QS sale did go through on the Tuesday though - don't know if that makes a difference...

K

The Merseyside forum sees to be throwing out alot of stuff yesterday including the fact the information had leaked on Enthusiast facebook page, and its Oldham were most of the loses have been made because of the tram.

Surreyman said:

Just for balance, I am hoping that Lothian will erode Firsts profitability to the point where they have to pull out of West Lothian completely, may take a few of years but Lothian have deep pockets and can play the long game.

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I guess it's the same in Essex. Go-Ahead, independents Ensign and Stephensons are chipping away and playing a waiting game whilst First run themselves into the ground from a lack of resources. (It might be helpful if Arriva would come to the party too - and Essex CC tilted the balance by coming down off the fence and make clear they'd rather be rid of First, who make a mockery of their efforts to promote bus use and the need to transfer travel away from the car with local towns which are coming to a full stop being often jammed solid for over half the day). They could afford to run either Eastern Counties, or Essex, but not both. They've chosen the former (hardly surprising with the MD a lifelong EC man), but may be it also makes commercial sense having seen off both Stagecoach and, it seems, Go Ahead from their East Anglian territory. And it's an easier job. It is a terrible prospect for the Essex passengers though, but nobody at First cares about them! I'm not specifically talking about the fleet - though that is a symptom - but the attitude within the Company that it "ain't bovvered" - if any company is interested it can try to do the best job it can with the resources it has, or it can effectively just give up and do as little as it can get away with, blaming "the circumstances" all the time. If it's someone or something else's fault you don't have to do anything, do you? The difference between the efforts in Stagecoach East, and First Essex, both in a hole, are instructive. One is still trying and making sure it gives the job its best shot, the other has all but given up. It can't do anything, and won't make the effort beyond the minimum facile excuse.

I do wonder if First aren't good at Met style areas - Manchester and South Yorkshire as examples, except where effectively the Local Authorities tell them what to do, and pay for it: as in Leeds/Bristol/Glasgow, or the Heathrow Services around Slough. They are better away from competition and the challenge of congestion where resources (which they don't have) are less of an issue, witness the rest of West of England, and East Anglia, and probably their smaller bits in the Midlands/South, and scottish lowlands too. It really seems to me that First Bus (corporately) don't actually much like buses which they are lumbered with, as a burden. (EDIT of course there are exceptions at some OpCos, very notably one top manager at Eastern Counties who if we want to identify the big difference with Essex, he is "it"). The competition actually often seem to like running buses, and the enthusiasm shows - even if sometimes it's nauseating. I prefer it to First's robospeak any day! It's the difference between any of us; doing a job we want to, and one which we have to, reluctantly, just because we can't get out of it.

Arguably it does seem to me that whilst First say they concentrate investment where there is local authority support, the reverse is true too - criticise them, and they will run away; they don't have the fight.

Of all the major bus operators I find that First are the worst at advertising or selling multi operator tickets.

Next month I am spending a few days in the Colchester area of Essex, and as was the case last time I was there about 4 years ago, I intend to mainly use the Essex Saver Day Ticket. Although now priced at £10 it is worth paying the extra £1.50 rather than getting a First Day at £8.50. With Hedingham, Stephensons, Arriva etc also operating in the area it’s worth the extra money to be able to use any operator on a day out. Nowhere on the First Essex Website is this ticket advertised and last time I found their drivers all too quick to sell you a First Essex Day instead. Hedingham and especially Stephensons clearly promote these tickets.

I had the same problem with First in Bristol trying to sell me a First West of England Ticket when I wanted an Avon Rider. One day in Bristol I never did get one as no First drivers could find it on their machine. Also I don’t think that First Kernow advertise the Ride Cornwall Ticket in their website.

DragonEast said:

I do wonder if First aren't good at Met style areas - Manchester and South Yorkshire as examples, except where effectively the Local Authorities tell them what to do, and pay for it: as in Leeds/Bristol/Glasgow, or the Heathrow Services around Slough. They are better away from competition and the challenge of congestion where resources (which they don't have) are less of an issue, witness the rest of West of England, and East Anglia, and probably their smaller bits in the Midlands/South, and scottish lowlands too. It really seems to me that First Bus don't actually much like buses which they are lumbered with, as a burden. The competition actually often seem to like running buses, and the enthusiasm shows - even if sometimes it's nauseating. I prefer it to First's robospeak any day! It's the difference between any of us; doing a job we want to, and one which we have to, reluctantly, just because we can't get out of it.

Arguably it does seem to me that whilst First say they concentrate investment where there is local authority support, the reverse is true too - criticise them, and they will run away; they don't have the fight.

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Interesting argument - and I don't necessarily disagree.

A few years ago I'd have said that First were better at running "municipal" operations (Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc) whilst Stagecoach were better at the "commuter" market of linking towns to the nearest big city (looking at how they transformed the services from Ayrshire into Glasgow, from Fife into Edinburgh etc) and dealing with the "honeypot" operations in tourist traps where people must use buses because there are insufficient car parking spaces in Oxford/ Cambridge etc.

Look at how First scale back coach/express operations (Swansea - Cardiff, West Lothian - Glasgow etc) as a contrast. But also how Stagecoach didn't get on with the prescriptive London market (where they didn't get the opportunity to be entrepreneurial).

For those reasons, you could argue that it would have been more "natural" for First to run Busways in Newcastle/ Sunderland whilst Stagecoach ran the Northumbria/Northern General operations into these cities (for example). Similarly, Stagecoach seem a natural fit for York. Stagecoach to run East Yorkshire whilst First ran the main "city" stuff in Hull, that kind of thing.

But now, there's a clear hierarchy within First - they've got good relationships with authorities in Glasgow/ Leeds/ Bristol, so most investment goes through them. Previous "high profile" operations like Manchester and Sheffield are unwanted.

The problem is that I can only see the disparities getting worse, with some areas insisting on "clean air" zones and therefore other places having to put up with older vehicles (than they would otherwise have received, if it wasn't for the urgency to put the investment into flagship operations like Leeds.

Maybe there should be a separate thread - Fantasy Operator League - where you could nominate who would have been better to get which bit of the NBC/ SBG/ Municipals. For example, I would have thought PMT would have done a lot better under Stagecoach, given the potential inter-urban work and the poor local trains (until relatively recently).

(this begs the question, however, of "what are Arriva best at", and I'm not really sure!)

ashworth said:

Of all the major bus operators I find that First are the worst at advertising or selling multi operator tickets...

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FSY get a lot of stick on here, but I've never had a problem buying the multi-operator Connect and Connect Plus tickets. I use them a lot and the drivers have invariably found the ticket on the machine in a few seconds. On Saturday I found they are actually for sale as an m-ticket on First's website.

back in 2010 up here in Manchester there was a small firm that took on first manchester in Tameside on one of the busy routes with lower fares and friendly drivers and loads used this new service sadly the firm folded some months later

mic said:

back in 2010 up here in Manchester there was a small firm that took on first manchester in Tameside on one of the busy routes with lower fares and friendly drivers and loads used this new service sadly the firm folded some months later

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Not Speedwell?

tbtc said:

Interesting argument - and I don't necessarily disagree.

A few years ago I'd have said that First were better at running "municipal" operations (Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc) whilst Stagecoach were better at the "commuter" market of linking towns to the nearest big city (looking at how they transformed the services from Ayrshire into Glasgow, from Fife into Edinburgh etc) and dealing with the "honeypot" operations in tourist traps where people must use buses because there are insufficient car parking spaces in Oxford/ Cambridge etc.

Look at how First scale back coach/express operations (Swansea - Cardiff, West Lothian - Glasgow etc) as a contrast. But also how Stagecoach didn't get on with the prescriptive London market (where they didn't get the opportunity to be entrepreneurial).

For those reasons, you could argue that it would have been more "natural" for First to run Busways in Newcastle/ Sunderland whilst Stagecoach ran the Northumbria/Northern General operations into these cities (for example). Similarly, Stagecoach seem a natural fit for York. Stagecoach to run East Yorkshire whilst First ran the main "city" stuff in Hull, that kind of thing.

But now, there's a clear hierarchy within First - they've got good relationships with authorities in Glasgow/ Leeds/ Bristol, so most investment goes through them. Previous "high profile" operations like Manchester and Sheffield are unwanted.

The problem is that I can only see the disparities getting worse, with some areas insisting on "clean air" zones and therefore other places having to put up with older vehicles (than they would otherwise have received, if it wasn't for the urgency to put the investment into flagship operations like Leeds.

Maybe there should be a separate thread - Fantasy Operator League - where you could nominate who would have been better to get which bit of the NBC/ SBG/ Municipals. For example, I would have thought PMT would have done a lot better under Stagecoach, given the potential inter-urban work and the poor local trains (until relatively recently).

(this begs the question, however, of "what are Arriva best at", and I'm not really sure!)

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I think a lot of it comes down to local management, the more profitable First areas, seem to have more pro-active management, than the poorly performing areas.
There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule; as urban areas like Leicester, Bristol, Leeds are the better performing areas, and Sheffield and Greater Manchester are badly performing, are also urban areas.
Similarly West Lothian, Eastern Counties, Cornwall seem to be doing quite well, these are more interurban 'commuter' areas.

NorthernSpirit said:

In regards with York, I recall the whole operation is/was registered as First West Yorkshire & York Ltd which is based on Donisthorpe Street in Leeds. The fleet in York (the last time I checked) had Donisthorpe Street on the legals which also suggests York is connected to the WY ops.

If Oldham is retained (for whatever reason) I do imagine seeing it being managed the same way as York is.

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York is registered to Donisthorpe Street, Leeds, but is separate - First York Ltd.

johnnychips said:

Not Speedwell?

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yes those where the ones

overthewater said:

The Merseyside forum sees to be throwing out alot of stuff yesterday including the fact the information had leaked on Enthusiast facebook page, and its Oldham were most of the loses have been made because of the tram.

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No it's not just Oldham where most of the losses have been made.

It's unlikely Go-Ahead will be in the frame for buying anymore

cactustwirly said:

I think a lot of it comes down to local management, the more profitable First areas, seem to have more pro-active management, than the poorly performing areas.
There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule; as urban areas like Leicester, Bristol, Leeds are the better performing areas, and Sheffield and Greater Manchester are badly performing, are also urban areas.
Similarly West Lothian, Eastern Counties, Cornwall seem to be doing quite well, these are more interurban 'commuter' areas.

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Some good points. Also, Leicester and Bristol don’t have too many distractions such as Trams or Local rail networks of any size.

Surreyman said:

Just for balance, I am hoping that Lothian will erode Firsts profitability to the point where they have to pull out of West Lothian completely, may take a few of years but Lothian have deep pockets and can play the long game.

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So can First though , in terms of size and pockets will be interesting to see whose are indeed deepest.

ashworth said:

Of all the major bus operators I find that First are the worst at advertising or selling multi operator tickets.

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They're all quite bad as they try to guide you to buy only their ticket, not the multi operator option. First are bad but Stagecoach seem to be the worst. First West of England at least do mention the TravelWest tickets on the website - I have had problems buying one when they moved to Ticketer but seems ok now and was never a problem before. However, not a mention of the Wiltshire Day Rover that they issue and accept on their services across the border from Bath.

https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/Fares Guide 11 Nov 2018_2.pdf

First Kernow mention PlusBus but nothing about Ride Cornwall, and you can find Connecta on First Worcester so it's mixed.

Go South Coast/Plymouth do mention tickets like Wiltshire Day Rover, the Devon day ticket and Ride Cornwall.

However, checking Stagecoach Wales, West and South West, there's no reference to multi operator tickets at all.

TheGrandWazoo said:

However, checking Stagecoach Wales, West and South West, there's no reference to multi operator tickets at all.

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I haven't checked West and South West, but Stagecoach Wales do mention the Day Network Rider multi-operator ticket (and sell it for the same fare as the Stagecoach-only ticket covering the same area!)
https://www.stagecoachbus.com/regionaltickets/south-wales/cardiff/daytickets

Dai Corner said:

I haven't checked West and South West, but Stagecoach Wales do mention the Day Network Rider multi-operator ticket (and sell it for the same fare as the Stagecoach-only ticket covering the same area!)
https://www.stagecoachbus.com/regionaltickets/south-wales/cardiff/daytickets

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My mistake and TBF, Devon does have the multi operator ones. However, the West one doesn’t (except Swindon DayRider) though Wiltshire Day Rover is mentioned on the Andover page!

You now need only the one first bus app, as the m tickets are now included in the other first bus app (android anyway )

Bwsbro said:

According to the DartSLF forum. Bolton Depot announcement expected Monday.

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Did they say which Monday.

No doubt someone who heard it off a mate who is mates with the night shunter at a completely different depot.

mic said:

back in 2010 up here in Manchester there was a small firm that took on first manchester in Tameside on one of the busy routes with lower fares and friendly drivers and loads used this new service. Sadly the firm folded some months later

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johnnychips said:

Not Speedwell?

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By the sounds of it, it was Speedwell as they created Speedwell Value - a cheapo fare solution that competed with First Greater Manchester. The project later folded when Speedwell collapsed.

^^
They weren’t the best of companies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedwellbus

Regarding the Manchester breakup, one of my sources (Don't want to say who or where as it'll get me in tonnes of trouble, plus the possibility of tea and biscuits with the boss! They are within middle management and privvy to meeting notes etc) but they believe it may be more of a slower process, where they complete and transfer one depot at a time. Something to do with easing the pressure on the legal team. But Bolton and Oldham have deals of some sort (probed for more info but no success!).

Also, the 'announcement' last Monday came from a rumour as you may had guessed. There was a notice up at depots regarding the recent telegraph article and basically didn't confirm or deny it. As with all notices First do, they have a start date (stick it on the noticeboard) and an end date (stick it in bin/suggestion box (same receptacle)). The end date correlated with Monday gone and hence the rumour mill turned it into an announcement on that date.

Gotta love that rumour mill!

K

If I was first I would want them off the books within the next 5 weeks I do still think the other two depots have some minor teething issues that need to be sorted out, before the buyers say yes. Its not all about the money.

overthewater said:

If I was first I would want them off the books within the next 5 weeks I do still think the other two depots have some minor teething issues that need to be sorted out, before the buyers say yes. Its not all about the money.

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I highly doubt that 5 weeks to complete any sales is realistic.

Then first will have it on its books for anther year then.

I was quite suprised at the timeframe, I thought First would want shot ASAP.

Something that was interesting though is about Go Ahead - I said something about potential firms and mentioned Go Ahead were out the running - my source said 'no-one is out the running, as long as it isn't Rotala!'

Watch this space I suppose!

Good.

Whilst First may want to offload during the current financial year, that just isn't going to happen. As an indication, the transfer of Wigan took about two months to complete, not least because you have to consult with the workforce with regard to TUPE.

overthewater said:

Then first will have it on its books for anther year then.

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It can take a good while to sell a house, let alone a business that comes with property / assetts / staff / pension liabilites etc. Unfortunately, First aren't really in the driving seat.

overthewater said:

If I was first I would want them off the books within the next 5 weeks

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This is not possible, for a number of reasons including that the new owners needs to apply for either a new operators licence or have an existing operator licence increased.

Then they need to register the services to be operated, which can take upto 8-weeks.

Also, as TGW as said

TheGrandWazoo said:

Whilst First may want to offload during the current financial year, that just isn't going to happen. As an indication, the transfer of Wigan took about two months to complete, not least because you have to consult with the workforce with regard to TUPE.

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