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Video shows possibly homeless man having dirty water poured around him outside Sutton Station

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Wolfie

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A minor assualt possibly but hardly in the league as per kicking a child down the station stairs as someone quoted earlier.

The London Evening Standard pointed out that temperatures that night were 1C and the man's clothes would not be dry by night time. Potentially giving someone hypothermia is "minor" huh.
 
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king_walnut

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Southern have sent out an email to all staff members acknowledging the incident and confirming that both people have been suspended pending investigation.
 

Bletchleyite

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The London Evening Standard pointed out that temperatures that night were 1C and the man's clothes would not be dry by night time. Potentially giving someone hypothermia is "minor" huh.

Quite. In that context it's quite serious, as it could well cause death by hypothermia. (If it was midday in August it would be much less so).

"Reasonable force" would have been for the two members of staff to take one arm each and move him as gently as possible (dependent on resistance he put up) to a suitable location. But I'm not sure it is even on railway property, so they might actually have no right to move him at all.
 

DarloRich

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I am genuinely stunned that people are trying to justify what happened here.

I cant see anyone trying to justify anything. Some people are saying that context and detail are required before jumping to conclusions. Personally I think that is quite sensible. Each to their own mind.

( BTW that would be my view with anything of this nature - regardless of those involved)
 

Master29

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The London Evening Standard pointed out that temperatures that night were 1C and the man's clothes would not be dry by night time. Potentially giving someone hypothermia is "minor" huh.
But it wasn`t filmed at night was it and the title says possible homeless man. Whilst I can agree they may have behaved wrongly as per the post above speaking of their suspension that still doesn`t mean they should be necessarily sacked on the basis of that short clip as we still don`t know the full facts.
 

king_walnut

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Nobody is trying to justify anything. Just explore other explanations as to what appears (OP`s original title) to be the case.

There is no explanation that justifies what is shown in the video.

As a frontline member of rail staff myself, I have come up against some pretty horrendous people. I have had people take grudges against me, and there are several people who when I see them, I think "Oh for god sake, here we go again". It's part of working on the railway. What I have never done is take matters into my own hands. The company is very clear on the fact that bringing their name into disrepute constitutes gross misconduct. Pouring dirty water all around a homeless man despite knowing there are people watching and filming is just bewildering to me, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY HE DID IT.

I could come across a holocaust denying convicted paedophile who thinks vaccines cause autism and that gay people aren't human beings, and I would still show him due regard if I was in my uniform and was dealing with him as a part of my job.


What about this do you struggle to understand?
 

Bletchleyite

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But it wasn`t filmed at night was it and the title says possible homeless man. Whilst I can agree they may have behaved wrongly as per the post above speaking of their suspension that still doesn`t mean they should be necessarily sacked on the basis of that short clip as we still don`t know the full facts.

They should be dealt with via the disciplinary process, as well as the Police, for allegedly committing assault while on duty. That may or may not involve them being sacked, nor will we find out if it does or not. However I'd suspect there is a high chance that it will.

However, there is absolutely no possible circumstance whatsoever, other than his clothing being on fire[1] (which is clearly not the case), where chucking water on someone or by them such that it would wet their clothes would be even vaguely acceptable. So the investigation is not required to know that they have done wrong, it is required to establish what sanctions will be taken. It is clear Southern have already started this.

[1] A better way of dealing with that is to wrap in something to starve the fire of oxygen, but given how quickly serious injury would occur, if you had a bucket of water in your hands and nothing to wrap them in that would be worth trying.
 

al78

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I am genuinely stunned that people are trying to justify what happened here.

I'm not. I've lurked on many themed forums and newsgroups, and one thing they have in common is a subset of militants who leap to the defence of anyone who might, in however a tenuous way, be classed as part of their in-group.

There are a subset of people who look down on those in situations of desperation such as extreme poverty, as though they must have done something to deserve it (i.e. the just world fallacy), to the point where they will look down on such people as sub-human and undeserving of the respect/etiquette that civilised people tend to display to each other. Humans are not rational thinkers, no matter how much they like to believe otherwise.

Having said that in the interests of balance it would be desirable to hear what the perpetrators have to say. Either they have a logical justifcation or they don't. If they don't then deal with them in whatever manner is appropriate.
 

Antman

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Southern have sent out an email to all staff members acknowledging the incident and confirming that both people have been suspended pending investigation.

Good to see the matter is being dealt with appropriately, why didn't staff just call BTP?

I witnessed an incident at Catford Bridge on Saturday where a dishevelled man was being abusive to passengers and staff who were very professional and BTP were quickly on scene to deal with him.
 
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DarloRich

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There is no explanation that justifies what is shown in the video.

As a frontline member of rail staff myself, I have come up against some pretty horrendous people. I have had people take grudges against me, and there are several people who when I see them, I think "Oh for god sake, here we go again". It's part of working on the railway. What I have never done is take matters into my own hands. The company is very clear on the fact that bringing their name into disrepute constitutes gross misconduct. Pouring dirty water all around a homeless man despite knowing there are people watching and filming is just bewildering to me, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY HE DID IT.

I could come across a holocaust denying convicted paedophile who thinks vaccines cause autism and that gay people aren't human beings, and I would still show him due regard if I was in my uniform and was dealing with him as a part of my job.


What about this do you struggle to understand?

But the point it is DOES matter. It matters very much. I am not seeking to excuse anyone simply that we try to understand WHY things happened and what we can do to prevent a repeat. For instance is there some failing in management or training? Why did this man think this was a good thing to do? What led to him doing it? What was the issue he was trying to fix? What should he have done?

if we don't find out why things happen how can we stop them? Sacking one man wont fix a systemic problem if one exists nor will it stop others doing something similar. That is happened is beyond doubt. I hope we might try to stop something similar happening again. You may feel he should be strung up but as I said previously each to their own.
 

Wombat

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I'm not sure what sort of management or training failure could lead to these events. Do we train people in basic decency or do we expect by default that they have acquired it during their upbringing? I think it's the latter.

I'm certainly curious to know the man's rationale for this behaviour, but I genuinely can't imagine anything that would justify it. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the obvious explanation is correct - the member of staff was having a bad day, the homeless man was in the way and being uncooperative and perhaps verbally abusive. Something along those general lines. The member of staff snapped and did something that he no doubt regrets. Armed with this hypothetical explanation, what do we do with it? What lessons can be learned?
 

RichardKing

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Just to add some context to this:
 

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Esker-pades

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Just to add some context to this:
Text to comply with the forum rules:

As this is about to be on the national news[:] Regarding the rail workers suspending for puring water over the "homeless" man, I just thought I would share some first hand experience of this man. I used to live opposite him and he had a perfectly decent flat. He was abusive to everyone. Shouting and swearing at people[,] including kids[;] he set fire to his flat once and had fights[,] often outside in the communal gardens[;] he had a dog that was taken off him as he used to mistreat it[,] including physically[,] so anyone who thinks this is black and white[,] it's probably not. [H]ave also just seen a guy say that he tried to assault a female paramedic for not allowing him to take beer in the ambulance. I don't think he's homeless either[,] but that's probably beside the point. I don't agree with them pouring water near him, but I think suspending them for trying to get him to move on [(]after it now turns out he was abusing women and kids at the station and getting complaints[)] is not fair either.
I have altered the SPaG (spelling, punctuation and grammar) to what I think is more correct.
 
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Ethano92

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Just to add some context to this:
In my opinion this doesn't change much. We know it was outside the station which I highly doubt staff have to mop therefore there was no need to pretend to. If he was being difficult, you call BTP whether he's a bad person or not. Also without meaning to sound petty, do we know how reliable this source is and if other people have had problems with this man? Not saying it is but this could easily have been faked.
 

Antman

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I'm not sure what sort of management or training failure could lead to these events. Do we train people in basic decency or do we expect by default that they have acquired it during their upbringing? I think it's the latter.

I'm certainly curious to know the man's rationale for this behaviour, but I genuinely can't imagine anything that would justify it. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the obvious explanation is correct - the member of staff was having a bad day, the homeless man was in the way and being uncooperative and perhaps verbally abusive. Something along those general lines. The member of staff snapped and did something that he no doubt regrets. Armed with this hypothetical explanation, what do we do with it? What lessons can be learned?

Who knows, the staff in the video didn't appear to be in a state of rage or anything. It may well be that this man is a nuisance but that doesn't justify their actions.

On my train travels I've seen staff deal with far worse in a very calm and professional way. These two will obviously have to explain their actions to management and possibly BTP.
 
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From the BBC “Southern Railway said the two members of staff have since been suspended. British Transport Police said they are investigating the incident as common assault.”
But nah, I’m going to believe some railway enthusiasts on the internet who say that it was all staged and the man had pooed himself and/or vomited everywhere and this is how railway staff are trained to deal with situations like this.
Seriously I can’t think of any situation where this is the correct textbook way of dealing with anything, and for that reason alone this is why them involved should lose their jobs, whether he had pooed himself is completely irrelevant, as others have said if someone doesn’t cooperate you call the police.
 

muz379

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But the point it is DOES matter. It matters very much. I am not seeking to excuse anyone simply that we try to understand WHY things happened and what we can do to prevent a repeat. For instance is there some failing in management or training? Why did this man think this was a good thing to do? What led to him doing it? What was the issue he was trying to fix? What should he have done?

if we don't find out why things happen how can we stop them? Sacking one man wont fix a systemic problem if one exists nor will it stop others doing something similar. That is happened is beyond doubt. I hope we might try to stop something similar happening again. You may feel he should be strung up but as I said previously each to their own.

The only people who know why things happened are the staff members themselves . I presume with this happening in a public space there will be CCTV of the whole exchange and any possible earlier contact , but unless that records voice as well we will only really have the version of events that staff give , given that there are two of them it is not inconceivable that they could fabricate an elaborate story .

I dont really think it could be said to be a management failing , I mean I have never had any training to tell me not to pour dirty water and possibly chemicals on the ground in a way that it will end up soaking into the clothing of someone who is clearly experiencing difficulties . But I just know that it is wrong to do that in any circumstances . I dont think any retraining would fix the moral deficiencies of these members of staff .

As for "Sacking one man wont fix a systemic problem" That wholly depends on what the systematic problem is , if the systematic problem is a group of staff either in one station or one company who view people they deal with in their day to day work with contempt , sacking one who has clearly overstepped the mark might make other staff members stop and think about their interactions with the public . Some might argue this is the company using one staff member as a scapegoat to make an example of , but I personally dont see it like that . These members of staff have given the company more than enough reason to make them the example .
 

Chrisgr31

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Leaving aside the remarkably stupid actions of the staff here management must be seething. The Brighton Line has just reopened after a very successful replacement bus service operation, which whilst it was initially met with complaints had plenty of praise at the end. Instead of being able to big up the glory of that success they are trending on social media due to these idiots in Sutton!
 

infobleep

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How come when I did a search on the forum for the word Sutton, this didn't show up. I've just put a similar post up. Perhaps I didn't construct the search correctly.

I shall delete my post now.
 
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infobleep

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The only people who know why things happened are the staff members themselves . I presume with this happening in a public space there will be CCTV of the whole exchange and any possible earlier contact , but unless that records voice as well we will only really have the version of events that staff give , given that there are two of them it is not inconceivable that they could fabricate an elaborate story .

I dont really think it could be said to be a management failing , I mean I have never had any training to tell me not to pour dirty water and possibly chemicals on the ground in a way that it will end up soaking into the clothing of someone who is clearly experiencing difficulties . But I just know that it is wrong to do that in any circumstances . I dont think any retraining would fix the moral deficiencies of these members of staff .

As for "Sacking one man wont fix a systemic problem" That wholly depends on what the systematic problem is , if the systematic problem is a group of staff either in one station or one company who view people they deal with in their day to day work with contempt , sacking one who has clearly overstepped the mark might make other staff members stop and think about their interactions with the public . Some might argue this is the company using one staff member as a scapegoat to make an example of , but I personally dont see it like that . These members of staff have given the company more than enough reason to make them the example .
You forgot one person in your comments, the man on the ground.

He also knows what happened. I appricate the versions of events may differ between them all but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point of view.

Also if there was CCTV without sound, perhaps someone could lip read what they are saying.

I know media organisations have made use of lip readers in the past.
 
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Termy

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I have altered the SPaG (spelling, punctuation and grammar) to what I think is more correct.

The spelling of "assault" in the original text was correct. :) Your corrected version sadly isn't! (Not making fun. Just wanted to point it out.)
 

jfowkes

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But the point it is DOES matter. It matters very much. I am not seeking to excuse anyone simply that we try to understand WHY things happened and what we can do to prevent a repeat. For instance is there some failing in management or training? Why did this man think this was a good thing to do? What led to him doing it? What was the issue he was trying to fix? What should he have done?

if we don't find out why things happen how can we stop them? Sacking one man wont fix a systemic problem if one exists nor will it stop others doing something similar. That is happened is beyond doubt. I hope we might try to stop something similar happening again. You may feel he should be strung up but as I said previously each to their own.

Agreed. Wanting to find out why <thing> happened is not the same as wanting to justify <thing> happening. This should be a fairly simple concept to grasp.

If wanting to know "why stuff happened" is tantamount to "wanting to find justify that stuff" then we should probably sack all the historians because wow those people have some explaining to do...
 

sw1ller

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Not defending their actions at all... nor am I having a got at the over stretched services the BTP offer, but....

How many times had they called the BTP before the staff had had enough of him abusing women and children?

I agree the WHY is very VERY important here. It’s not the approach I’d take, but if someone was sat outside my local station abusing anyone and everyone, and the police hadn’t turned up after a couple of hours (speculation, I know) then I think I’d be at my wits end too

My point is, the WHY is very important here. Their actions were wrong, but I feel the person filming this might be after a bit of twitter fame. The original story was posted by someone who’d seen it on a friends Facebook with no substance to their claims that the staff were aggressive to the person recording.

It just feels like we need more information before we start calling for the staffs heads.
 

infobleep

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Not defending their actions at all... nor am I having a got at the over stretched services the BTP offer, but....

How many times had they called the BTP before the staff had had enough of him abusing women and children?

I agree the WHY is very VERY important here. It’s not the approach I’d take, but if someone was sat outside my local station abusing anyone and everyone, and the police hadn’t turned up after a couple of hours (speculation, I know) then I think I’d be at my wits end too

My point is, the WHY is very important here. Their actions were wrong, but I feel the person filming this might be after a bit of twitter fame. The original story was posted by someone who’d seen it on a friends Facebook with no substance to their claims that the staff were aggressive to the person recording.

It just feels like we need more information before we start calling for the staffs heads.
How do you know it was on a friends Facebook Post?

The twitter post doesn't even reference the source and just states they saw it on Facebook and decided to share it on Twitter. The voices have been modified either by Twitter or the person posting it, making them unrecognisable. The original Facebook post doesn't have this.

The original Facebook post is avilanle for anyone to view and has been linked to on here.
 

king_walnut

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But the point it is DOES matter. It matters very much. I am not seeking to excuse anyone simply that we try to understand WHY things happened and what we can do to prevent a repeat. For instance is there some failing in management or training? Why did this man think this was a good thing to do? What led to him doing it? What was the issue he was trying to fix? What should he have done?

if we don't find out why things happen how can we stop them? Sacking one man wont fix a systemic problem if one exists nor will it stop others doing something similar. That is happened is beyond doubt. I hope we might try to stop something similar happening again. You may feel he should be strung up but as I said previously each to their own.

There is absolutely no possible circumstance whatsoever where chucking water on someone or by them such that it would wet their clothes would be even vaguely acceptable.
 
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