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"£100m" claim launched against TOCS re: Boundary zone tickets

cjohnson

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From the Evening Standard:
A massive legal claim for almost £100 million was launched today against three commuter train operators accused of forcing passengers to “pay double” for their journeys.

The rail companies that run the Southeastern and South Western networks are alleged to have overcharged millions of customers who bought tickets for travel beyond the zones covered by their Travelcards.

The claim, lodged with the Competition Appeal Tribunal this morning, argues that they should have been offered the chance to pay “boundary fares” for the “gap” between the outer limit of their Travelcard zone coverage and their final destination.

But in reality these fares were not promoted or made available for sale online, over the phone or at platform machines and were rarely offered at ticket counters. This left passengers with “little option” other than to pay twice, according to the claim.

It is being led by the former head of research at Citizens Advice, Justin Gutmann, who also spent eight years working for London Underground.

He has commissioned research from analysts Alix Partners estimating that 168 million journeys have been affected by the “unfair” overcharging since October 2015, with UK rail passengers owed £93 million and passengers from outside the UK a further £4.5 million.

For example, a passenger holding a zones one to six Travelcard who wanted to travel from Victoria to Rochester would be entitled to pay just £8.70 for a boundary fare from the outer limit of zone six to the end destination.

But in reality the vast majority of passengers buying the ticket on the day are charged the full fare of £18.70, an overpayment of £10.

Similarly a trip from Waterloo to Addlestone in Surrey should cost only a £5.10 boundary fare for the holder of a zones 1 to 6 Travelcard. However, the normally charged full fare is £10.40, an overpayment of £5.30.

Mr Gutmann said: “Passengers in London already pay a lot of money for trains that are often delayed or not even running. Now,following extensive research, we have found that some passengers are paying twice for parts of their rail journeys. We are launching this legal action to ensure that the money that South Western and Southeastern have made from this is returned to those train users.

“Millions of rail passengers could be eligible for compensation. Let’s put this right and stop train companies taking passengers for a ride.”

The tribunal will be asked to decide whether the claim can proceed as a “collective proceeding order” similar to a class action under Chapter II of the 1998 Competition Act and Article 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

If it is allowed to go forward any passenger who had a Travelcard at any time from October 1, 2015 and also purchased a rail fare from a station within the zones of their Travelcard to a destination outside the zones may be eligible for compensation. Affected passengers who do not live in the UK will also be eligible to join the claim but must opt in.

The companies involved are Stagecoach South Western Trains, which ran the South Western franchise up to August 2017, and the current operator First MTR South Western Trains, as well as London and South Eastern Railway, which holds the Southeastern train franchise.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...er-making-passengers-pay-double-a4077796.html
 
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Clip

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This is bound to fail surely - I mean why haven't they gone after every other TOC within the South East who do the same?

How are they ever going to find out how many people are eligible - and sift out the many fraudulent claims?

How are they going to get any money from companies that dont exist anymore?
 

swt_passenger

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I agree, just can’t see how the historic problem journeys can ever be substantiated one way or another.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Perhaps a claim like this will wake the TOCs up to the fact that overcharging can result in massive bills, years later, and that it's therefore not just a matter of courtesy, or of individual cases.
 

Kite159

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Yet SWR are one of the few TOCs which have options on the TVMs to buy from the Boundary Zones without needing to queue at the ticket office.
 

Clip

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Perhaps a claim like this will wake the TOCs up to the fact that overcharging can result in massive bills, years later, and that it's therefore not just a matter of courtesy, or of individual cases.
TOCs are only liable to sell what the customer asks for - nothing more nor less - so how can they be held responsible for alleged overcharging?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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This is bound to fail surely - I mean why haven't they gone after every other TOC within the South East who do the same?
The mere fact that they haven't proposed action against all other TOCs that might be liable doesn't mean that the claim is going to fail. It's not as if they are taking action against these three TOCs for the failings of all London area TOCs.

How are they ever going to find out how many people are eligible - and sift out the many fraudulent claims?
This is quite a common problem for class-action lawsuits. Proof can often be the hardest part, but that again, by no means undermines the legal case. The TOCs will be expected to cooperate in providing all possible records they hold.

How are they going to get any money from companies that dont exist anymore?
Two of the three TOCs still exist and are franchise holders. The other still has a very much alive parent company, and is still listed as a trading company on Companies House. There is even the potential prospect of personal liability for various staff involved, so I wouldn't even rule out the claim against what was SWT could succeed. And even if there's no money to take, it could still succeed.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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TOCs are only liable to sell what the customer asks for - nothing more nor less - so how can they be held responsible for alleged overcharging?
Whilst that's perhaps an understandable opinion to some, it's a gross misunderstanding of the way that common law, let alone consumer law, works in this context.

I would be very surprised if this didn't get at least some level of success, as they are making a very valid complaint.
 

Kite159

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TOCs are only liable to sell what the customer asks for - nothing more nor less - so how can they be held responsible for alleged overcharging?

What next, TOCs being liable for not advertising that it can be cheaper to split and the person in the ticket office/TVM sold a requested ticket from A to F without saying "if you split at B & D it will bring the cost down"?
 

Clip

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Whilst that's perhaps an understandable opinion to some, it's a gross misunderstanding of the way that common law, let alone consumer law, works in this context.

I would be very surprised if this didn't get at least some level of success, as they are making a very valid complaint.

You seeming forget the Railways Act and all other applicable acts and laws that set out specifically what a TOC can and cannot do in all of this...
What next, TOCs being liable for not advertising that it can be cheaper to split and the person in the ticket office/TVM sold a requested ticket from A to F without saying "if you split at B & D it will bring the cost down"?

I'm off to file a class action on Sainsburys because they didn't inform me that Frosted Lucky Charms were on sale cheaper at Asda.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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What next, TOCs being liable for not advertising that it can be cheaper to split and the person in the ticket office/TVM sold a requested ticket from A to F without saying "if you split at B & D it will bring the cost down"?
No, that's different. The case here is that companies have been making customers pay more to get rights they already had. It would be like saying a season ticket holder from London to Reading needed a London to Bristol ticket to travel to Bristol, instead of just a Reading to Bristol ticket - and making the purchase of Reading to Bristol ticket as good as impossible.
 

sprunt

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TOCs are only liable to sell what the customer asks for - nothing more nor less - so how can they be held responsible for alleged overcharging?

Do all TVMs offer boundary zone tickets? If not, how is a customer supposed to ask for one at an unstaffed station where the TVM doesn't offer them?
 

bubieyehyeh

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It might end up with boundary tickets being sold online, rather than only from some TVM and ticket offices only on day of travel.

I think it would make sense to sell boundary season tickets so commuters into london could by a z1-6 on oyster and a boundary season.

I've had ticket office try to sell me a ticket from the last station in the zone to the destination, telling me it costs the same. I then have to point out I'd have to use the slow trains that stop at that last station.
 

yorkie

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What next, TOCs being liable for not advertising that it can be cheaper to split and the person in the ticket office/TVM sold a requested ticket from A to F without saying "if you split at B & D it will bring the cost down"?
I think this post demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about the issues involved.

A boundary zone ticket is an extension of a Travelcard; it is not comparable with "split ticketing" to save money.
You seeming forget the Railways Act and all other applicable acts and laws that set out specifically what a TOC can and cannot do in all of this...
Are you suggesting railway legislation overrides consumer, contract and competition laws? If so you'd be wrong.

I'm off to file a class action on Sainsburys because they didn't inform me that Frosted Lucky Charms were on sale cheaper at Asda.
The fact you are posting such a wildly inaccurate analogy demonstrates a lack of understanding.

A Travelcard holder who asks to extend their journey is entitled to be sold the Boundary Zone ticket, where applicable/appropriate.

The fact train companies make it difficult to purchase such tickets, and have been caught doing so, is in no way comparable to supermarket analogies.
This is bound to fail surely - I mean why haven't they gone after every other TOC within the South East who do the same?
They could, but there are various reasons why they might choose not to, such as the economics might not stack up.

I also predict this won't be the last case of its kind. Certain train companies are committing multiple breaches right now but it's not always economical to bring this sort of action against them.
 
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I've had ticket office try to sell me a ticket from the last station in the zone to the destination, telling me it costs the same. I then have to point out I'd have to use the slow trains that stop at that last station

You don't need to stop at that station (NRCoT 14.2) - so they may have a point if the boundary zone fare wouldn't have given you any other routes - but why they wouldn't just sell the thing is a mystery. I don't think all SWR machines sell them (last time I looked) but the fares exist and have been available for decades so this action seems doomed to fail. I agree it would be a big improvement to see them sold on-line, especially if e-tickets.
 

Kite159

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I think this post demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about the issues involved.

A boundary zone ticket is an extension of a Travelcard; it is not comparable with "split ticketing" to save money.

Just how many 'Normal' travellers know about the existence of Boundary Zone tickets?

Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"? [Using the example given in the article?].

In a way it is like split ticketing as the informed traveller is splitting their travels at the boundary of zone 'X', and is like someone travelling from A to C where splitting at B is cheaper. The 'Normal' will pay over the odds for a ticket from A to C, but the informed traveller will pay the cheaper rate by splitting.
 

yorkie

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Just how many 'Normal' travellers know about the existence of Boundary Zone tickets?
Exactly. The train companies like to keep quiet about them.
Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"? [Using the example given in the article?].
If a customer makes it clear to the seller that they want a specific product, the seller is able to sell that product without further questions.

I wouldn't pick out one thing from the article and then suggest from that the entire claim has no merit. This is a topic I have had many discussions about and it does have merit. I am not surprised to see this action.
In a way it is like split ticketing as the traveller is splitting their travels at the boundary of zone 'X', and is like someone travelling from A to C where splitting at B is cheaper.
Not at all if you already have a Travelcard and wish to extend that product.

Some TOCs have chosen not to make them available through any retail channel except from ticket offices, and have chosen to staff those ticket offices in such a manner that long queues result in people paying more because if they paid the correct fare they would have missed their train. Some ticket office staff deny the existence of these products and/or sell different products, even when a customer asks for them by name.

I am aware of mystery shopping taking place that has caught TOCs out on multiple occasions. It's an abuse of a dominant position.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Just how many 'Normal' travellers know about the existence of Boundary Zone tickets?

Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"? [Using the example given in the article?].

In a way it is like split ticketing as the informed traveller is splitting their travels at the boundary of zone 'X', and is like someone travelling from A to C where splitting at B is cheaper. The 'Normal' will pay over the odds for a ticket from A to C, but the informed traveller will pay the cheaper rate by splitting.
It is not the passenger's concern that the railway seems unable to have come up with a system of keeping track which rights it has sold to whom.

In theory, all representatives of the company should know which passengers have been given which rights (e.g. who has a Travelcard) and therefore if someone with a Travelcard turns up to buy a ticket to Rochester they should be sold a ticket from Boundary Zone X. That the TOCs have decided not to have policies of asking passengers what ticket(s) they already have, and that they haven't developed the technology to, for example, tie tickets to fingerprints or other biometric data, is not the customer's fault.

In this situation, the very least the TOCs should be doing is to make Boundary Zone tickets as easy to obtain as any other ordinary point-to-point ticket - at all TVMs, online and at all ticket offices.
 

WelshBluebird

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Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"? [Using the example given in the article?].

No, but if someone does present to the staff member a travelcard and says "I already have this travelcard to zone x, I want a return to Rochester" then the member of staff should be selling them the correct ticket so they are not overcharged and effectively pay twice for the travelcard portion of the trip.

And in my opinion, especially in the London area where someone having a travelcard is not that rare, it should be made more obvious that the options are! In other areas where you have normal season tickets, it is obvious that you do not need an extra ticket to cover your season ticket area, so why not make it just as easy and obvious for travelcards?

And for those who already know, that still doesn't meant the ticket office / TVM / online site will be able to sell you the correct ticket!
 
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farleigh

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TOCs are only liable to sell what the customer asks for - nothing more nor less - so how can they be held responsible for alleged overcharging?
I am afraid that you have missed the point rather spectacularly here.
 

Clip

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Are you suggesting railway legislation overrides consumer, contract and competition laws? If so you'd be wrong.

Did I say that? I dont think I did.

The fact you are posting such a wildly inaccurate analogy demonstrates a lack of understanding.

I have a lot more understanding than you think yorkie.

Can you show me in both consumer contract law and the legislation that the railway has to abide by when retailing tickets - that they HAVE to sell all these various niche and cheaper tickets by default?

A Travelcard holder who asks to extend their journey is entitled to be sold the Boundary Zone ticket, where applicable/appropriate.

No one(especially me) has suggested that they are not entitled to them - unless you can point out where I have said that they are not then I will concede this point to you.

The fact train companies make it difficult to purchase such tickets, and have been caught doing so, is in no way comparable to supermarket analogies.

But thats not what this class action is about though - its not about the difficulty of purchasing them though so i think you may have read it and understood it wrong and in your haste have made the error of me saying things I didnt nor understanding the class action suit which, i shall get the direct quote from the story 'accused of forcing passengers to “pay double” for their journeys.'
 
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Clip

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I am afraid that you have missed the point rather spectacularly here.

Nope - show me where I have missed the point - then show me where train operating companiues are compelled in both consumer contract law and the railway legislation that they HAVE to seel the cheapest ticket for any journey AND must also first ask if they have a travelcard in order to sell them the correct fare.

I will await your answer
 

sprunt

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You don't need to stop at that station (NRCoT 14.2) - so they may have a point if the boundary zone fare wouldn't have given you any other routes - but why they wouldn't just sell the thing is a mystery.

Does a zonal travelcard on Oyster count as a season ticket for the purposes of NRCoT? The definition given in NRCoT is

“Season Ticket” means a Ticket sold as such which allows you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer;

suggests not - it isn't sold as a Season Ticket, it's sold as a Travelcard. Also, section 36.3 says:

A Season Ticket must be supported by a photocard which bears a true likeness of the user. Photocards may be obtained free of charge at staffed station Ticket offices on production of a passport sized photograph.

which certainly doesn't apply to Oyster travelcards. Common sense suggests that it should count, but...
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Does a zonal travelcard on Oyster count as a season ticket for the purposes of NRCoT? The definition given in NRCoT is



suggests not - it isn't sold as a Season Ticket, it's sold as a Travelcard. Also, section 36.3 says:



which certainly doesn't apply to Oyster travelcards. Common sense suggests that it should count, but...
It's definitely a season ticket and it would be ludicrous of any TOC to try and suggest otherwise.
 

Silverdale

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In theory, all representatives of the company should know which passengers have been given which rights (e.g. who has a Travelcard) and therefore if someone with a Travelcard turns up to buy a ticket to Rochester they should be sold a ticket from Boundary Zone X.

It's quite a reach to suggest that there is an obligation on ticket retailers to maintain records of all potential customers and their Travelcard (and other discount card?) status so that they can be prevented from purchasing the "wrong" ticket. I don't believe any such obligation exists.

That the TOCs have decided not to have policies of asking passengers what ticket(s) they already have, and that they haven't developed the technology to, for example, tie tickets to fingerprints or other biometric data, is not the customer's fault.

Of course. It's quite a different thing for a retailer to simply ask; "Will you be using a Travelcard/railcard?" in order to offer the appropriate ticket and I'm sure the policies of the TOCs involved in this claim will be very relevant. As for fingerprints/biometrics, as a customer I would regard it as a severe imposition to be required to provide a fingerprint, iris scan, or whatever at a ticket office. I am not seeking entry to the launch control of a nuclear submarine. A photocard, or passport/driving license, where even that is necessary, is sufficient to prove ID in order purchase a travel ticket.

In this situation, the very least the TOCs should be doing is to make Boundary Zone tickets as easy to obtain as any other ordinary point-to-point ticket - at all TVMs, online and at all ticket offices.

Exactly that. The claim against these 3 TOCs is that they have not fulfilled those bare minimum requirements and by not making boundary fares available or sufficiently available, have acted in breach of competition laws.

Not only does this claim have serious merit, it seems quite likely to be allowed to go to the Tribunal and to succeed. If the TOCs have any sense, they should be seeking to settle.

A website exists which has much more detail than is covered in the ES article.
 

big all

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you would have thought it would be easy enough to have a scanner at the machine or till to say when scanned what your ticket validity is and when journey details entered either added to the card as a credit for a one off journey
or print a specific new ticket saying only valid with ticket xxx for journey between x and y
 

Haywain

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Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"?
Well, during my years selling tickets at a major London terminal, we regularly asked people if they had any Travelcards or Railcards, just to try and improve the chances of people buying the right ticket. It wasn't foolproof, but dealing with the travelling public rarely is.
 

district

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If someone comes to my window and tells me about them having a travelcard or a freedom pass of course I will sell them the boundary zone ticket (without being specifically asked and without question) and unless I am being very naive (which I accept is a fair possibility as I have history of having mixed successes at ticket offices when a passenger), I’m sure most other clerks would as well?

Many passengers are confused by the difference between a travelcard and a railcard and use the names interchangeably, it would be even more difficult and time consuming to ask every passenger if they have any other ticket contributing towards the journey they intend to make. I think the onus should be on the passenger to make the clerk aware, but then the clerk should sell the correct ticket. There’s no real reason why they can’t be made available on TVMs or online either.
 
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