What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?

whhistle · 28 Feb 2019

I know there seems a few obvious answers here but I'm not too sure what the point is.

Guards still check tickets, many barrier staff allow people through to "help someone on the train" too.

I draw on experience from abroad where if a station has barriers, it has no tickets checks en route (or perhaps I have been lucky every time!).

If a station has barriers, I never see any squabble or people coming back through without tickets.

Don't get me wrong, I was told revenue from Coventry increased by nearly £80k a week when the barriers were installed so there are obvious merits but I wonder if it's more for local journeys.

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221129 · 28 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
I know there seems a few obvious answers here but I'm not too sure what the point is.

Guards still check tickets, many barrier staff allow people through to "help someone on the train" too.

I draw on experience from abroad where if a station has barriers, it has no tickets checks en route (or perhaps I have been lucky every time!).

If a station has barriers, I never see any squabble or people coming back through without tickets.

Don't get me wrong, I was told revenue from Coventry increased by nearly £80k a week when the barriers were installed so there are obvious merits but I wonder if it's more for local journeys.

When the barriers went in at Newton Abbot they had paid for themselves in about 3 weeks...

They're also very good for keeping undesirables out as well.

Kite159 · 28 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
I know there seems a few obvious answers here but I'm not too sure what the point is.

Guards still check tickets, many barrier staff allow people through to "help someone on the train" too.

I draw on experience from abroad where if a station has barriers, it has no tickets checks en route (or perhaps I have been lucky every time!).

If a station has barriers, I never see any squabble or people coming back through without tickets.

Don't get me wrong, I was told revenue from Coventry increased by nearly £80k a week when the barriers were installed so there are obvious merits but I wonder if it's more for local journeys.

You've hit the nail on the head, before the barriers you would get a lot more passengers chancing their luck when travelling local journeys without buying a ticket before hand, in the hope they wouldn't get gripped.

Although barriers have their limitations (can tell if a ticket is valid at that station not if its valid on that train, i.e. Single to Edge Hill).

DelW · 28 Feb 2019

There are plenty of areas that are either DOO, or where guards don't have time / aren't required / can't be bothered to check tickets (delete according to personal view).

My local line has a number of un-barriered stations, yet I only get an on-board check about 1 in every 5 to 10 journeys (length varying between 10 and 50 minutes, almost never get a check on the 10 minute short hop).

wildcard · 28 Feb 2019

What's the point of barriers …….. if they are going to be left open for significant periods of time . Barriers are proven method of increasing fare revenue - and probably pay for themselves and the staffing costs within weeks . Yet why are stations left so undermanned even during peak periods . Birmingham New Street this means you . In my view it should be a franchise requirement to man the barrier not just the station at all times when trains are calling.

Kneedown · 28 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
I

I draw on experience from abroad where if a station has barriers, it has no tickets checks en route (or perhaps I have been lucky every time!).

Had my first experience of the New Jersey Transit system last week. Barriers at entrance and exit, along with an on board check.

LowLevel · 28 Feb 2019

Since my trains started running from the unbarriered platforms at Liverpool Lime Street post resignalling there has been a marked increase in the number of scummers who know this and therefore won't pay. Before we had the odd 'buy a ticket to Edge Hill' idiot but we came to know them and deal with them inventively.

The mentality in this country is unfortunately if you're not prevented from doing something physically then it's OK.

ijmad · 28 Feb 2019

For the major London stations, and other cities, many stations have the same gateline for local and regional/intercity services.

The local services are often DOO, are too heavily loaded for a ticket inspector to move through, and journeys would be too short for comprehensive checks on board anyway. The other end of such a journey is probably another station with barriers.

The regional/intercity services are a different kettle of fish. The other end may not have barriers, but there's plenty of time for checks.

However, for the compromise to work, you at least need a gateline to be on operation.

There is not as much of a benefit for long distance services in having a gateline at just one end, but having them at both ends does stop people evading ticket inspectors by hiding in the toilets or shifting seats.

LowLevel · 28 Feb 2019

ijmad said:
For the major London stations, and other cities, many stations have the same gateline for local and regional/intercity services.

The local services are often DOO, are too heavily loaded for a ticket inspector to move through, and journeys would be too short for comprehensive checks on board anyway. The other end of such a journey is probably another station with barriers.

The regional/intercity services are a different kettle of fish. The other end may not have barriers, but there's plenty of time for checks.

However, for the compromise to work, you at least need a gateline to be on operation.

There is not as much of a benefit for long distance services in having a gateline at just one end, but having them at both ends does stop people evading ticket inspectors by hiding in the toilets or shifting seats.

The problem with on board checks is what you do with miscreants when you find them. It's OK if you happen to have police on tap to remove them but the old approach of the more handy guards or revenue protection having a blind eye turned to dragging the more belligerent 'what are you going to do about it?' types out of the door, preferably in the middle of nowhere, is no longer deemed to be acceptable.

Otherwise if you refuse to pay, give you their details or get off unless you manage to get the police out (sitting waiting for them is deemed unacceptable) there's nothing to be done.

Consequently the best approach with hot spots (particularly big city terminals) is to physically prevent the more low level miscreants from gaining access to the platform in the first place.

Consistent on board checks are best for dealing with the pay when challenged brigade particularly on lines that have no station staffing.

DanTrain · 28 Feb 2019

wildcard said:
What's the point of barriers …….. if they are going to be left open for significant periods of time . Barriers are proven method of increasing fare revenue - and probably pay for themselves and the staffing costs within weeks . Yet why are stations left so undermanned even during peak periods . Birmingham New Street this means you . In my view it should be a franchise requirement to man the barrier not just the station at all times when trains are calling.

This would be less of a problem if they worked as intended but the amount of tickets to which they just ‘say no’ is unbelievable. I nearly missed my train recently because New Street’s barriers weren’t scanning e-tickets and the only member of staff was busy helping someone else! Barriers seem to have e-ticket readers now but I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen them working, they always seem to either be out of order or just not accepting the tickets. If the barriers worked then maybe staffihg wouldn’t be such of an issue.

thenorthern · 28 Feb 2019

Revenue protection is the simple answer, before the barriers came in on the morning Virgin train from Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester that I used to catch in Coach A (the one I normally traveled in) if the guard came and checked tickets he would normally collect more than £200 in otherwise lost revenue. Bear in mind this was one coach on an 11 coach train.

If there are ticket barriers in place it essentially stops free riders from traveling.

sarahj · 28 Feb 2019

On the coastway west service here on Southern, people chancing between Lancing and Shoreham was just silly. 3-4 mins between stations and most folks when caught were of the view 'well I'm getting of here anyway'. RPO blocks were/are only effective for a half hour or so before the word gets out and suddenly folks are coming up to you to buy a ticket. The barriers going in at Shoreham made a massive difference. Even the ones at lancing have made a difference, but TBH, the barrier person at Lancing has no back up, no place of safety and folks even walk down the ramp to the level crossing, thus trespassing, to avoid them. But they help. Of course nothing is going to stop some. Last week some kids ran across the closed level crossing barriers at Southbourne (driver told me at PMS), and then when they got off the train 7 mins later at Havant climbed over a quite high fence to escape the station.

gazzaa2 · 28 Feb 2019

Drives me mad when the (valid) ticket doesn't work.

Happened to me a London tube station recently and it was unstaffed so I'm stood there like an idiot. Had to double click in the end just to get out.

trainmania100 · 28 Feb 2019

Many stations do not have barriers, and where you do have barriers, you often also have staff to assist passengers, I wonder what's cheaper...
Not having barriers, and expecting people to buy a ticket, or
Installing barriers along with gateline staff costs
Thameslink trains are often driver only operated, and the majority of my journeys, my ticket isn't even checked and I get on at a station with no gateline or staff

I think costs should be put towards onboard ticket staff rather than gateline which can easily be jumped if no one is looking

Jonfun · 28 Feb 2019

The biggest trigger of rail staff assault and abuse is revenue protection, so by preventing the fare dodgers from even getting into the system in the first place it results in a massive decrease in such incidents with knock on effects such as better staff morale, increased revenue taken, reduced delay minutes when crew get assaulted and frees police time up to better investigate the other incidents.

Ken H · 28 Feb 2019

Jonfun said:
The biggest trigger of rail staff assault and abuse is revenue protection, so by preventing the fare dodgers from even getting into the system in the first place it results in a massive decrease in such incidents with knock on effects such as better staff morale, increased revenue taken, reduced delay minutes when crew get assaulted and frees police time up to better investigate the other incidents.

They just jump over, or push hard and the gate gives way. See it all the time at brum Moor St. The staff just ignore it.

cuccir · 28 Feb 2019

Barriers aren't going to prevent all fare evasion, but they will prevent some. It will probably prevent the chancer rather than the determined evader, but still that's a good chunk of fare evasion stopped.

Ken H said:
They just jump over, or push hard and the gate gives way. See it all the time at brum Moor St. The staff just ignore it.

I don't blame them. I wouldn't intervene with someone who I'd just seen use physical violence in this way.

train_lover · 28 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
Don't get me wrong, I was told revenue from Coventry increased by nearly £80k a week when the barriers were installed so there are obvious merits but I wonder if it's more for local journeys.

Surely this answers your own question?

dk1 · 28 Feb 2019

whhistle said:
Don't get me wrong, I was told revenue from Coventry increased by nearly £80k a week when the barriers were installed so there are obvious merits but I wonder if it's more for local journeys.

That is music to my ears.

Jonfun · 28 Feb 2019

Ken H said:
They just jump over, or push hard and the gate gives way. See it all the time at brum Moor St. The staff just ignore it.

Having that at a station, particularly at a big city, is easier to manage though as police are often nearby and even if the staff don't intervene there and then, revenue teams can build up a picture of regular fare evaders who do things like that and be there with a welcome party of their team and police. The gatelines dramatically cut down the numbers as comparatively few undesirables will physically break through the ticket gate so more revenue/police time can be focussed on those who do.

Starmill · 28 Feb 2019

The majority of gateline staff are given clear instructions not to physically aprehend anyone who misuses the gates or tries to avoid paying, for fairly obvious liability and practicality reasons. Some specially trained security staff or the police are needed for this.

LowLevel said:
Since my trains started running from the unbarriered platforms at Liverpool Lime Street post resignalling there has been a marked increase in the number of scummers who know this and therefore won't pay. Before we had the odd 'buy a ticket to Edge Hill' idiot but we came to know them and deal with them inventively.

The mentality in this country is unfortunately if you're not prevented from doing something physically then it's OK.

Interesting point.

Did taking away the ticket gates at Grantham or Newark Northgate have a noticeable impact? What about Durham, if anyone is familliar there?

By the same token, has the installation of gates at Warrington Central made any difference (even though personally I think they should be removed and replaced within a larger new station building if Northern wish to gate this station, as they cause ridiculous queues only having three gates at such a busy station)?

Bletchleyite · 28 Feb 2019

Ken H said:
They just jump over, or push hard and the gate gives way. See it all the time at brum Moor St. The staff just ignore it.

What they do do, though, is deter casual evasion - the "pay when challenged" mob (which is a very large number) consider the barrier to be a challenge, particularly if a member of staff is sat there watching it.

Starmill · 28 Feb 2019

sarahj said:
On the coastway west service here on Southern, people chancing between Lancing and Shoreham was just silly. 3-4 mins between stations and most folks when caught were of the view 'well I'm getting of here anyway'. RPO blocks were/are only effective for a half hour or so before the word gets out and suddenly folks are coming up to you to buy a ticket. The barriers going in at Shoreham made a massive difference. Even the ones at lancing have made a difference, but TBH, the barrier person at Lancing has no back up, no place of safety and folks even walk down the ramp to the level crossing, thus trespassing, to avoid them. But they help. Of course nothing is going to stop some. Last week some kids ran across the closed level crossing barriers at Southbourne (driver told me at PMS), and then when they got off the train 7 mins later at Havant climbed over a quite high fence to escape the station.

Do a suspiciously large number of people who boarded a busy train at ungated stations still get off at Aldrington?

cjp · 28 Feb 2019

For next time if I am ever caught again how hard should I push when stuck?

Other passengers assisted before a member of staff wandered over from I know not where (no one was in sight as used the barrier). I have just posted a letter to LT

LowLevel · 28 Feb 2019

Starmill said:
The majority of gateline staff are given clear instructions not to physically aprehend anyone who misuses the gates or tries to avoid paying, for fairly obvious liability and practicality reasons. Some specially trained security staff or the police are needed for this.

Interesting point.

Did taking away the ticket gates at Grantham or Newark Northgate have a noticeable impact? What about Durham, if anyone is familliar there?

By the same token, has the installation of gates at Warrington Central made any difference (even though personally I think they should be removed and replaced within a larger new station building if Northern wish to gate this station, as they cause ridiculous queues only having three gates at such a busy station)?

The gates at Grantham and Newark (and also Peterborough which remains the case to this day despite the number of DOO trains from the station - the issue with having an intercity operator in charge with no interest in local travel) were regularly open regardless. I don't go to Northgate very often but I've never really noted many issues with fare evaders from there as the main town station is Castle (which has plenty of them!) and most people are just interchanging.

The thing I note with Grantham now is the number of people who board, cash in hand, perfectly happy to pay having just wandered through the booking hall without a second thought. Particularly prevalent on a Saturday with big groups who can't get their Groupsave tickets from the TVMs. It's rare to work a train towards Nottingham from Grantham without selling something.

Warrington Central does help to a degree but you can gain access to and from the Manchester bound platform if you really want to.

Short of banning aggressive fare evaders from the network for life and having them arrested on sight for returning it's hard to know what to do.

As it is people who assault railway staff and get convicted are generally not prevented from travelling about afterwards.

sarahj · 28 Feb 2019

Starmill said:
Do a suspiciously large number of people who boarded a busy train at ungated stations still get off at Aldrington?

Yes, esp coming away from Brighton. Which is odd as the station has no car park, no close bus stops and is hardly a min from Hove. Funny that.

12guard4 · 28 Feb 2019

wildcard said:
What's the point of barriers …….. if they are going to be left open for significant periods of time . Barriers are proven method of increasing fare revenue - and probably pay for themselves and the staffing costs within weeks . Yet why are stations left so undermanned even during peak periods . Birmingham New Street this means you . In my view it should be a franchise requirement to man the barrier not just the station at all times when trains are calling.

Virgin trains staff have their break around 6pm. Ridiculous.

sheff1 · 28 Feb 2019

thenorthern said:
If there are ticket barriers in place it essentially stops free riders from traveling.

A short time observing matters at some stations would quickly dispel that belief.

What I find strange is that when installation of barriers is announced it usually includes a line about keeping anti-social types out yet, after installation, the barriers are left wide open after the evening peak i.e. the very time much anti-social behaviour is likely to occur.

DH1Commuter · 28 Feb 2019

To answer the question about Durham, there appear to be a significant number of people now who will pay when challenged en route to Newcastle, where there are barriers, but they're often open in the morning peak. They are not challenged often, unless on the early morning Northern services, where the conductor/guard is generally switched-on and wills eel from Durham and (unstaffed) Chester-Le-Street).

If you want to evade a fare on this route, your chances on XC or LNER are excellent, sadly.

duncanp · 28 Feb 2019

Had my first experience of the New Jersey Transit system last week. Barriers at entrance and exit, along with an on board check.

Not every station on the New Jersey Transit system has barriers - there are several rural stations that are completely unmanned.

However each New Jersey Transit train has at least one conductor, quite often two, and my ticket was checked on every journey that I made when I was over there last year.

In contrast, the light rail systems in New Jersey do not have barriers or conductors, and a lot of people must get away without buying a ticket because my ticket was never checked once.

What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?

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