I thought all LU stations were staffed? And don't barriers have to be staffed or left open?
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What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?
- Thread starter whhistle
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I thought all LU stations were staffed? And don't barriers have to be staffed or left open?
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221129
Established Member
No. They can be remotely operated from elsewhere on the station.
I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that there had to be at least one member of staff present in case of an emergency or the barriers are left open, I assumed the same rule applied everywhere? I think it's side gates that only see occasional use that are monitored remotely?
I envisage the calculation on whether to install barriers is made by the accountants on a financial basis rather than with any overlying instinct about improving the travelling experience or protecting staff from the unruly. With so many stations now being gated there must be heaps of anecdotal evidence to prove that barriers increase revenues and pay for themselves very quickly. if you think about the journeys that are made now the vast majority must pass through at least one station that is barriered and i would think much more than half will both start and end at barriered stations.
TOC's always moan about how much is lost in fare evasion but never comment about the extra revenue they get from unused advances or people paying more than they should or not using split ticketing. Pus the fines and PF's and recharges that occur for people on the wrong trains.
TOC's always moan about how much is lost in fare evasion but never comment about the extra revenue they get from unused advances or people paying more than they should or not using split ticketing. Pus the fines and PF's and recharges that occur for people on the wrong trains.
When I worked on the SR, back the late 70's early 80's there was either a college or Uni along the South Coast, (cant recall where now) that had a big chart where the students hung out, it listed where all the unmanned barrier stations were, and also the lightly manned stations too.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Probably a lot higher on LNER than on XC.
At least the barriers at Newcastle seemed to be in operation longer than expected last Saturday/Sunday.
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
Or are just left open with fare evaders walking straight through them turned a blind eye to. This happens at London Kings Cross for example.
thenorthern
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Fair point although a lot of the people traveling without a ticket are professionals in smart clothing at peak time when the ticket barriers pay for themselves. I know that in the United Kingdom if ticket barriers are in operation they have to have a member of staff at them at all times otherwise they have to be left open. At off peak times the cost of keeping the ticket barriers manned probably isn't justified as the amount they get in otherwise lost revenue is more than the cost of employing staff.
In Barcelona there is no requirement to keep ticket barriers manned and I remember being a rural station at night and my ticket wouldn't let me out and it was not a nice experience.
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
To function as a visual deterent to casual fare evaders who will see them and give up when they would otherwise travel for free. Determined fare evaders can simply do the following: 1) Jump over the barriers. 2) Slide under the barriers. 3) Forcefully push the barriers until they give way. 4) Insist on being allowed to leave the station, if arriving at a barriered station. This is known to work at some TOCs. 5) Enter/leave the station via a side exit which either lacks barriers or has them open at all times e.g. London Kings Cross. 6) Short fare or buy a platform ticket to get through the barriers. 7) Enter the railway network from a station which lacks barriers, then change onto another train.
I have learnt (and have used) some of these methods from when I used to fare evade on the railway in the past but I have now reformed and no longer do that. Please note that this information is for educational purposes only and is not meant to in any way endorse, encourage or recommend fare evasion in any way shape or form.
I have learnt (and have used) some of these methods from when I used to fare evade on the railway in the past but I have now reformed and no longer do that. Please note that this information is for educational purposes only and is not meant to in any way endorse, encourage or recommend fare evasion in any way shape or form.
221129
Established Member
Again... this isn't the case.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
A significant issue these days comes from the DfT. Many franchise agreements include a DfT insistence on the installation of ticket barriers but this is not accompanied by any useful ruling on their staffing. Perhaps this should not come as a surprise given the decades-long preference of the DfT to see rail staff numbers reduced wherever possible.
A much underestimated benefit. Where's that like button?
Warrington Central is an embarrassment of a station considering the size of the town. But of course Warrington is not in a PTE area. Pay attention please TfN!
It does however *reflect* the fundamental basic principle of law in this country that we are free to do as we please provided there is no specific prohibition from doing so. In many other countries it is the other way round ie you may only do that which you are permitted to do.
A much underestimated benefit. Where's that like button?
Warrington Central is an embarrassment of a station considering the size of the town. But of course Warrington is not in a PTE area. Pay attention please TfN!
It does however *reflect* the fundamental basic principle of law in this country that we are free to do as we please provided there is no specific prohibition from doing so. In many other countries it is the other way round ie you may only do that which you are permitted to do.
What happens if someone gets stuck?
Kite159
Veteran Member
You have stations with secondary entrances with barriers but not manned, with the staff at the main barriers. If you have issues you talk with the staff via a camera.
For example Cheltenham Spa.
I also commute Durham - Newcastle and I'd say the barriers are only operational at msot Newcastle 3 mornings out 5 during the peak.
DH1Commuter is right: all 3 main operators check tickets rarely, I'd say I tend to show my season ticket once, maybe twice a week. LNER and TPE seem to sell tickets on-board with no questions asked; XC also do but tend to admonish people a bit more. Northern (4 trains a day currently) are the only operator who almost always check, but they still sell tickets on board; I don't know if this will genuinely change when they bring in penalty fares.
I have 5 colleagues who do the same commute as me more or less regularly, and who I occaisionally see (our working hours are quite flexible so we wouldn't always be on the same trains). Of these 5, I've seen one buy on board an LNER and encountered another buying a ticket at the machines on the track-side TVMs at Newcastle when the barrier was closed. Frankly, I'd be surprised if either would have purchased a ticket if not challenged. They've certainly never stopped to buy one when I've bumped into them on occaisions when the barriers were open.
Personally, the removal of barriers has made my commute more pleasent but I'm sure it's increased the pay-when-challenged crowd significantly.
Andrew1395
Member
The gatelines channel people and slow them down (even when open) compared to an open platform so the cctv can get a better image of people as they pass through the station. Which helps the police and security services.
Kite159
Veteran Member
On LU stations gates are controlled by a SCU (Station Control Unit), these are located on the gateline (in a grey cabinet with a monitor / keyboard or touchscreen depending what type of SCU they have) or in control room that look out onto gateline. If a gateline is unmanned on LU it must always have at least one gate left in the open position, normally the WAG (Wide Aisle Gate).
Gates are designed for revenue collection, not crowd control, although this can be obviously done as well.
njamescouk
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nothing new here, in my youth you didn't get anywhere near a platform without a ticket.
njamescouk
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if the TOCs want to solve this "problem" they can do so. however, it's pretty obvious they don't think it's cost effective. taxpayers funds into directors and shareholders pockets is the name of the game.
annoyed at people not paying? then do as they do; personally I don't want the hassle and just pay up.
annoyed at people not paying? then do as they do; personally I don't want the hassle and just pay up.
njamescouk
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people buying tickets when challenged on the train? either ensure massive ticket selling capacity on the train (customer friendly but costly for the TOC) or don't sell tickets on the train (customer unfriendly but costly for the TOC).
so we are where we are.
so we are where we are.
To be fair on TOCs though, lost revenue is through people not paying - IE, doing something they shouldn't be doing.
The other things you mentioned are the rules.
If you don't use a cheap Advance ticket, that isn't the TOCs fault. The deal with getting it cheaper is that there's no refunds. Travel Lodge operates in the same way - cheaper room = no cancellation.
Using split tickting is just a technicality, a bit like tax avoidance.
But lost revenue is just that - a loss.
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
How about issuing PFs or reporting for prosecution routinely to people without tickets?
SteveP29
Member
I arrived in Newcastle at 09:39 from Edinburgh last Saturday and the barriers were open.
On my return for the 17:28 on Sunday, gates closed and staff on hand.
I does seem to be very random to me as to when barriers are in operation at Newcastle
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
It could be down to a lack of staff. Most (if not all) TOCs e.g. Greater Anglia require that the barrier must be manned or otherwise under the supervision and control of a member of railway staff. This is not a matter of simply keeping the customer happy (although this is important) but it has vital safety implications. If the station needs to be evacuated (or even if only one or some passengers need to leave) in an emergency e.g. pregnant woman, medical emergency, fire, bomb threat, derailment or collision then an unstaffed barrier will hinder that taking place (both to those who have tickets that the barrier will accept and those who don't) which can lead to bad situations ranging from emergency workers not having any space to get through to the emergency and do their job to a deadly stampede taking place and people being injured and/or killed. This also explains why gatelines at most (if not all) TOCs e.g. Greater Anglia have a red emergency button which automatically opens all of the barriers.
It seems to be very random at a lot of stations, probably largely dependant on staff availability.
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
That is true. One example is St Neots station, which is a Great Northern station. That station has at least some of its entrances/exits remotely supervised and controlled by an video intercom system where in order to enter or leave (if the barrier won't accept your ticket) you just press the intercom button, speak to a member of staff and they let you through. They could (in theory at least!) check your ticket beforehand using the video part of this system but in practice they will usually just let you straight through. This makes ticket barriers at St Neots rather pointless in my opinion given that they don't even do a good job serving as a visual deterent to a casual fare evader!
cjp
Member
Fixed times would make avoidance easier unless the fixed time was always. But as others have said it is all about.££££s.
The stations on the hounslow loop are not barriered or staffed but on train checks by ticket examiners (who can do what?) have been stepped up over the last few months.
LU doesn't remotely operate barriers like many train operating companies do; they are either operated by staff present adjacent to the gateline or by staff in an office next to or in front of the gateline. When the barriers are being left unattended (for example if staff have to attend to other duties on the station) they will normally leave at least one gate open.
All LU managed stations are rostered to have staff present 24 hours a day, although there may be two periods per day which staff are not present for meal reliefs at smaller, above ground, stations. Despite what people may say, there are only a tiny number of occasions where a duty is uncovered and a station is left unstaffed.
ForTheLoveOf
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I exited at Highgate station some months ago and the barriers certainly appeared unmanned but closed. No sign of any staff around. If they were there, I certainly didn't see them.
I think that is rather concerning, I've seen instances of people getting trapped and staff have been able to intervene quickly and what if there is some sort of emergency and the station has to be evacuated? Precious time could be lost.
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