Trivia: Trains that do not call at the county town/city but call at other stationsin the same county

adrock1976 · 4 Mar 2019

Following on from a post in the Rotherham Masborough reopening thread (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-rotherham-masborough-reopen.178887/page-2#post-3905632) regarding Crosscountry Intercity trains not calling at Gloucester, but do call at Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway (Stoke Gifford), it has made me think if there are other trains that do not call at any other county town/city that has given its name to the county, but calls at others.

A few I can think of are as follows:

Clwyd - Mold (obviously, as the line got lifted), but trains call at other stations towards Holyhead, the Borderlands line, and Chester towards Shrewsbury has trains calling at those stations (I believe Clwyd no longer functions as an actual county in terms of being an administrative centre, but still exists in some form, hence how I have included it here)

Gwynedd - Caernarfon (obviously, as the line got lifted).

Lincolnshire - (Lincoln) No Intercity East Coast services normally call on the way to or from Leeds, Newcastle, and Edinburgh, but calls at Grantham and Retford

Cleveland/Teesside - Middlesbrough has no Intercity trains, but Grand Central calls at Eaglescliffe, Stockton-on-Tees, and Hartlepool

County Durham - Durham has mainly the London Kings Cross - Edinburgh Waverley/Inverness/Aberdeen that omit calling, but calls at Darlington (Bank Top)

Warwickshire - Warwick (Town) is omitted on the Birmingham Moor Street - London Marylebone, but calls at Warwick Parkway and Leamington Spa (for those born before 1974, this could also additionally include Birmingham Moor Street and Solihull)

West Glamorgan - the Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour boat train omits Swansea/Abertawe, but calls at Llanelli and points west to and from Fishguard

One south of the mighty Thames that could be included even though borderline is Surrey as the county council governance is shared between Kingston upon Thames and Guildford, with it not being possible to travel on a direct train between those two towns.

Are there any others?

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sd0733 · 4 Mar 2019

A few TPE and Virgin services skip out Lancaster, also the Sleeper doesnt call.

fishquinn · 4 Mar 2019

adrock1976 said:
Warwickshire - Warwick (Town) is omitted on the Birmingham Moor Street - London Marylebone, but calls at Warwick Parkway and Leamington Spa (for those born before 1974, this could also additionally include Birmingham Moor Street and Solihull)

You can add the Manchester-Bournemouth services to that, which don't even pass through Warwick (instead calling at Leamington Spa and then going towards Coventry). The same for the hourly Leamington-Coventry service, calling at Kenilworth on the way. Oh, and the XC services that go via Solihull because they pass through non stop.

TVLUser · 4 Mar 2019

Northumberland - Alnwick is the county town.

Alnwick station itself does not exist on the National Rail network, but even taking Alnmouth (for Alnwick) as the station for the town:

Tyne Valley Line - With the exception of the Southbound Evening service from Chathill, no services go from Alnmouth/Alnwick to the Tyne Valley.
East Coast Main Line - Loads of examples here of LNER/XC trains that stop at Morpeth/Berwick-upon-Tweed, but don't stop at Alnmouth.
Similarly on the ECML - There is a regular Northern service from Morpeth and Cramlington (in Northumberland) to Newcastle: only the 2tpd Chathill services make it to Alnmouth.

306024 · 4 Mar 2019

Quite a few trains don’t stop at the fine city that is Chelmsford.

Ianno87 · 4 Mar 2019

Loads of stuff calls at Peterborough that does not call at Cambridge (LNER etc.)

Tomnick · 4 Mar 2019

There must be loads and loads of examples, if I’ve understood the question correctly. Just off the top of my head...

No trains that call at Bottesford (Leics) also call at Leicester. Some trains call at Loughborough and/or Melton but not Leicester.

No trains that call at Retford or Shireoaks, and only a handful that call at Newark Northgate, also call at Nottingham.

No trains that call at Whitwell, Creswell, Langwith, Shirebrook, Alfreton, Langley Mill or Ilkeston also call at Derby. Many trains call at Chesterfield but not Derby.

Trains between Grantham and Skegness call at many stations in Lincolnshire but not Lincoln.

And so on.

higthomas · 4 Mar 2019

adrock1976 said:
if there are other trains that do not call at any other county town/city that has given its name to the county, but calls at others.

If we take this quote literally, it includes every train that stops at a single station in a county, but not the county town.
Therefore it would include:

Every train that calls in Birmingham but not Warwick
Every train that calls in Manchester or Liverpool but not Lancaster
Every train that calls at Leeds but not York
Every train that calls at Bristol but not Gloucester
Every train that calls at Waterloo or London Bridge but not Guildford/Kingston
etc.

This would obviously be a massive list and quite boring to compile. More interesting is those which pass through, but don't stop at, the county town.

Thebaz · 4 Mar 2019

Bedford

adrock1976 · 4 Mar 2019

higthomas said:
If we take this quote literally, it includes every train that stops at a single station in a county, but not the county town.
Therefore it would include:

Every train that calls in Birmingham but not Warwick

Every train that calls in Manchester or Liverpool but not Lancaster

Every train that calls at Leeds but not York

Every train that calls at Bristol but not Gloucester

Every train that calls at Waterloo or London Bridge but not Guildford/Kingston

etc.

This would obviously be a massive list and quite boring to compile. More interesting is those which pass through, but don't stop at, the county town.

This was what I was referring to in the opening post, such as with the Warwickshire (Warwick) example.

dgl · 4 Mar 2019

West of England main line stops at Sherborne, and Gillingham in Dorset but goes no where near Dorchester.

SwindonBert · 4 Mar 2019

Bristol was historically a county on it's own, except when it was part of Avon.

TheGrew · 4 Mar 2019

Stafford would also be good solid example, loads of trains fly through despite it being the county town for Staffordshire (though Stoke is by far the larger settlement). Specifically I am thinking the 2TPH Euston-Manchester that go via Weston but there may be other outliers.

Cheshire would also have loads as the Chester is on a diverging route rather than the main WCML so most services would stop at Crewe (and a few would stop at WBQ) but not Chester.

The_Train · 4 Mar 2019

TheGrew said:
Stafford would also be good solid example, loads of trains fly through despite it being the county town for Staffordshire (though Stoke is by far the larger settlement). Specifically I am thinking the 2TPH Euston-Manchester that go via Weston but there may be other outliers.

Can also add some of the VTWC services that call at Tamworth in the evening but then fly through Stafford along with anything that calls at Burton. Also there is the Crewe-Derby stopper that calls at plenty of Staffordshire stations without going near to Stafford along with the Manchester-Stoke stopper which calls at Kidsgrove along the way

talltim · 4 Mar 2019

Tomnick said:
No trains that call at Whitwell, Creswell, Langwith, Shirebrook, Alfreton, Langley Mill or Ilkeston also call at Derby. Many trains call at Chesterfield but not Derby.

The county town of Derbyshire is Matlock. Very few trains stop there, although the ones that do also stop at Derby!

talltim · 4 Mar 2019

Only Hertford loop trains stop at Hertford, but the WCML, ECML, MML and WAML pass through Hertfordshire.

Kite159 · 4 Mar 2019

So for Wiltshire (county town of Trowbridge)

London Paddington - South Wales (Swindon)
London Paddington - Bristol Temple Meads & beyond (Swindon/Chippenham)
London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa (Swindon)
London Paddington - West Country (Pewsey/Westbury)
London Waterloo - Salisbury & beyond [other than those services which continue towards Bristol Temple Meads]
Salisbury - Romsey

For Hampshire (country city of Winchester)

London Waterloo - Salisbury & beyond
London Waterloo - Basingstoke (stoppers)
London Waterloo - Alton
Southampton Central - Portsmouth & Southsea
Southampton Central - Brighton/London Victoria
Portsmouth - Brighton/Victoria/Littlehampton
Cardiff Central - Portsmouth Harbour (plus those GWR short workings to Southampton & services to Brighton)
Salisbury - Romsey
Brockenhurst - Lymington
London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour (via Petersfield)
Reading - Basingstoke
Reading - Redhill/Gatwick

FGW_DID · 4 Mar 2019

Assume you mean by “do not call at” the trains have to pass through the station but don’t stop?

Otherwise one example would be any service heading West towards Swindon ( S.Wales / Bristol TM etc etc ) stopping at Didcot (Oxfordshire), they obviously don’t go anywhere near at the county city of Oxford.

The_Train · 4 Mar 2019

FGW_DID said:
Assume you mean by “do not call at” the trains have to pass through the station but don’t stop?

I read it differently so if this is what the OP meant you can disregard most of my examples in my previous post (except the Tamworth one). I suppose what you've said would make more sense as counties cover large areas and I imagine every county has lines that don't run through it's county town/city

AM9 · 4 Mar 2019

adrock1976 said:
... One south of the mighty Thames that could be included even though borderline is Surrey as the county council governance is shared between Kingston upon Thames and Guildford, ...

I thought that Kingston is just a London Borough now. It's Surrey days ended in 1965 with the creation of Greater London.

DanTrain · 4 Mar 2019

talltim said:
The county town of Derbyshire is Matlock. Very few trains stop there, although the ones that do also stop at Derby!

How are we defining county town? I’d always considered the county town of Derbyshire to be Derby (in which case Hope Valley and Buxton services still qualify), but I can see the argument for Matlock.

Furthermore, surely the county town (city) of Yorkshire is York, in which case ECML Leeds services, MML Sheffield services, HT Hull services and GC Bradford services all call in Yorkshire without calling at York. Although Yorkshire is somewhat of an exception due to its sheet size!

gazthomas · 4 Mar 2019

I must admit to being a bit confused about the scope of this question. Does Hertford quailify? How about Conwy?

dazzler · 4 Mar 2019

DanTrain said:
How are we defining county town? I’d always considered the county town of Derbyshire to be Derby (in which case Hope Valley and Buxton services still qualify), but I can see the argument for Matlock.

Furthermore, surely the county town (city) of Yorkshire is York, in which case ECML Leeds services, MML Sheffield services, HT Hull services and GC Bradford services all call in Yorkshire without calling at York. Although Yorkshire is somewhat of an exception due to its sheet size!

Pre-1974, Yorkshire was 3 Ridings (North, East and West), each with their own county town (Northallerton, Beverley and Wakefield - in that order!) - plus the City of York, which was not in any of the Ridings as it was a separate County Borough.

Post 1974, the situation is as follows:

West and South Yorkshire both consist of several unitary authorities and their respective county towns are Wakefield and Barnsley
East Yorkshire's (and the old East Riding) county town is Beverley, as Kingston upon 'Ull is a unitary authority (and was a separate County Borough pre-1974).
North Yorkshire's (and the old North Riding) county town is Northallerton.
York is not the county town of any part of Yorkshire, and hasn't been since 1889, even when it was (temporarily) part of North Yorkshire (1974 - 1996).

DanTrain · 4 Mar 2019

dazzler said:
Pre-1974, Yorkshire was 3 Ridings (North, East and West), each with their own county town (Northallerton, Beverley and Wakefield - in that order!) - plus the City of York, which was not in any of the Ridings as it was a separate County Borough.

Post 1974, the situation is as follows:

West and South Yorkshire both consist of several unitary authorities and their respective county towns are Wakefield and Barnsley
East Yorkshire's (and the old East Riding) county town is Beverley, as Kingston upon 'Ull is a unitary authority (and was a separate County Borough pre-1974).
North Yorkshire's (and the old North Riding) county town is Northallerton.
York is not the county town of any part of Yorkshire, and hasn't been since 1889, even when it was (temporarily) part of North Yorkshire (1974 - 1996).

Oh yes so it would seem, although according to Wikipedia Barnsley and Wakefield are no longer county towns.

dazzler · 4 Mar 2019

DanTrain said:
Oh yes so it would seem, although according to Wikipedia Barnsley and Wakefield are no longer county towns.

That probably ties in with the 1990's split of West Yorkshire into Kirklees, Calderdale, Bradford, Leeds and Wakefield unitary authorities and South Yorkshire into Doncaster, Barnsley, Rotherham and Sheffield. Not much need for a county town there!

IanD · 4 Mar 2019

Trains which call at King's Sutton don't generally head to Northampton.

Ditto for those calling at Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby.

urpert · 4 Mar 2019

Maidstone is effectively a railway backwater so loads of services in Kent would meet this requirement.

Ianno87 · 4 Mar 2019

talltim said:
The county town of Derbyshire is Matlock. Very few trains stop there, although the ones that do also stop at Derby!

DanTrain said:
How are we defining county town? I’d always considered the county town of Derbyshire to be Derby (in which case Hope Valley and Buxton services still qualify), but I can see the argument for Matlock.

Furthermore, surely the county town (city) of Yorkshire is York, in which case ECML Leeds services, MML Sheffield services, HT Hull services and GC Bradford services all call in Yorkshire without calling at York. Although Yorkshire is somewhat of an exception due to its sheet size!

"County Town" and "Administrative Centre" are different things, surely?

Fluclo · 4 Mar 2019

adrock1976 said:
West Glamorgan - the Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour boat train omits Swansea/Abertawe, but calls at Llanelli and points west to and from Fishguard

Llanelli is in the country of Carmarthenshire, not West Glamorgan (or as its now called, the City and County of Swansea). However, for West Glamorgan, you have the following calling at Port Talbot but not Swansea:
16.31 SO Manchester Piccadilly to Milford Haven
12.05 SuO Cardiff Central to Milford Haven
05.03 SX (05.04 SO) Carmarthen to Milford Haven
12.50 SX (12.43 SO, 1240 SuO) Fishguard Harbour to Cardiff Central

The 08.14 SX and 11.00 Swansea to Fishguard Harbour calls at the Carmarthenshire towns of Llanelli and Whitland, but not at the principle town Carmarthen

And if you're including services not necessarily passing the principle town, but stop somewhere else in the county, every Pembroke Dock and Fishguard train doesn't call at Haverfordwest, there are trains that turn around at Llanelli that don't call at Carmarthen, and there is a Heart of Wales train that calls at Pontarddulais but not Swansea

Springs Branch · 5 Mar 2019

Ianno87 said:
"County Town" and "Administrative Centre" are different things, surely?

I vaguely recall we had a similar thread in the past (but couldn’t find it with a quick search) and IIRC that one ended up in arguments about county towns, unitary authorities and administrative centres. For example, the administrative centre of Derbyshire is Matlock, not Derby (as already mentioned) and the administrative centre of Lancashire is Preston, not Lancaster.

While Wikipedia helpfully states “the concept of a county town is ill-defined and unofficial”, at least the OP made this thread clear as “county town / city that has given its name to the county”.

For Lancashire, the majority of trains serving stations in the modern-day county do not pass through Lancaster, but a good fraction will pass through or terminate at Preston.

There is a handful of regular routes which pass through neither the county town (Lancaster) nor the administrative HQ (Preston):-

Clitheroe – Blackburn – Bolton – Manchester Vic – Rochdale.
Buckshaw Parkway – Manchester Vic.
Southport – Manchester – Leeds (Burscough Bridge and Parbold in Lancs)
Blackburn – Todmorden – Manchester – Wigan – Southport (two sections in Lancashire).
Kirkby – Wigan - Manchester Victoria (one stop in Lancashire at Upholland, between Merseyside and "Greater Manchester").
Ormskirk - Liverpool Central (Town Green, Aughton Park & Ormskirk are in Lancs.)

Trivia: Trains that do not call at the county town/city but call at other stationsin the same county

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