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Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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SWRtrain_fan

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On Twitter, I asked South Western Railway when the 442s are expected to enter passenger service, and unfortunately they are expected to be fully introduced by December 2020☹️
 

SWRtrain_fan

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I asked SWR again to double check they weren't referring to the 701s, and they said "Hi, they have started to be introduced, however it is scheduled that they will be fully introduced, therefore complete, by December 2020".
 

theironroad

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I asked SWR again to double check they weren't referring to the 701s, and they said "Hi, they have started to be introduced, however it is scheduled that they will be fully introduced, therefore complete, by December 2020".

The reply sounds vague. '"they have started to be introduced " sounds like they're saying they're in passenger service which is what people want, but is anyone aware of any having run with passengers on yet?
 

Bletchleyite

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Not sure I’ve heard the Pompey Line complaining about the door positions. If the 450s has 2+2 like the 350s then the problem would’ve not arisen.

Indeed, I doubt Pompey Direct passengers would have an issue with a Class 350/1. We certainly like them on the south WCML, they are the ideal unit for middle distance regional express operation having 2+2 seating (with decent seats) and doors at quarters (roughly) for quick boarding and alighting. I see no great difference between the Pompey Direct and Euston-Birmingham which would suggest that the units should differ. (I know 350/2s appear on those, but they are not popular when they do!)

What's ironic about SWR is that the Class 455s, while they don't have armrests, do have the 2+2 type Grammer E3000 seats and (most notably) they are spaced to a 2+2 layout with space between the seat and the window, even if actual armrests are absent - so a bit like Merseyrail. Not at all like the Class 70x people might think! So the suburban passengers get a more comfortable unit.
 

theironroad

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Indeed, I doubt Pompey Direct passengers would have an issue with a Class 350/1. We certainly like them on the south WCML, they are the ideal unit for middle distance regional express operation having 2+2 seating (with decent seats) and doors at quarters (roughly) for quick boarding and alighting. I see no great difference between the Pompey Direct and Euston-Birmingham which would suggest that the units should differ. (I know 350/2s appear on those, but they are not popular when they do!)

What's ironic about SWR is that the Class 455s, while they don't have armrests, do have the 2+2 type Grammer E3000 seats and (most notably) they are spaced to a 2+2 layout with space between the seat and the window, even if actual armrests are absent - so a bit like Merseyrail. Not at all like the Class 70x people might think! So the suburban passengers get a more comfortable unit.

I think that the Pompey line users would be happy with any stock that was 2+2 with an armrest and a small drop down table like the current 444s. Power and WiFi would also be good.

When 450s replaced the 444/442 over a decade ago, the issue was overwhelmingly 3+2. The trains are busy and while a 12-450 may provide more seats than a 10-444/442, they were pretty much deemed very unconformable, especially the middle of the 3 seater for over an hour travel.

I don't think most commuters would necessarily care where the doors are located.

If the 442s ever resurface, while they may be 2+2 I think newer commuters may be disappointed if they think they're going to be the same spec and reliability as 444s.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that the Pompey line users would be happy with any stock that was 2+2 with an armrest and a small drop down table like the current 444s

I suppose to be fair a 350/1 and a 444 are basically the same thing, other than the latter having slightly longer vehicles, end doors and no pantograph.

The 350/1s, of course, were a diverted order - they were going to be for SWT originally! Though I expect had they been they'd have been delivered as conventional 450s with the 3+2 interior.
 

TEW

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The reply sounds vague. '"they have started to be introduced " sounds like they're saying they're in passenger service which is what people want, but is anyone aware of any having run with passengers on yet?
None in service yet, although things do appear to be moving slowly towards that finally.
 

pigs bay

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I see the obvious solution to all the Pompey line disatisfaction to whether they want 442's or 450's is to put the 444's back on the Pompey direct and via Eastleigh, and put the 442's back where they rightfully belong on the SWML.... to Poole and Weymouth. Problem solved!!!
 

hwl

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I see the obvious solution to all the Pompey line disatisfaction to whether they want 442's or 450's is to put the 444's back on the Pompey direct and via Eastleigh, and put the 442's back where they rightfully belong on the SWML.... to Poole and Weymouth. Problem solved!!!
Or bigger problem created...
 

theironroad

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I see the obvious solution to all the Pompey line disatisfaction to whether they want 442's or 450's is to put the 444's back on the Pompey direct and via Eastleigh, and put the 442's back where they rightfully belong on the SWML.... to Poole and Weymouth. Problem solved!!!
While many suggest that might be the solution, the inherent problem is that the power supply west of Poole cannot sustain 10-442 operation as regular working.

The alternative is that the the 10-442 detaches at Bournemouth , the next issue is then that station staff /shunters would have to be fully trained on attaching/detaching and all the staffing issues that brings in in.

Additionally, something swr have recognised is that there is some safety/capacity in running 10-442 as opposed to 5-442 as if the motors fail on a 5-442 the unit is failed and requires assistance, something that trains of their age will inevitably succumb to. running a 10-442 allows the formation to be cleared off the line to a place of refuge rather than blocking the line.

The whole programme is rather a gamble however and proving to be more expensive than originally envisaged I believe.
 

pompeyfan

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In hindsight you get the impression that the best thing that could have and should have been done was to convert the 350/2s that are coming off lease into a 2+2 comfortable high spec unit. Fit ASDO to them and possibly brief the staff on any differences between the two types of Desiro and that would be that. For diagramming reasons they should be renumbered 451s to ensure they don’t routinely get mixed into a 450 diagram. If you had a 451 and a 444 coupled together you’d think most passengers wouldn’t really care.
 

swt_passenger

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In hindsight you get the impression that the best thing that could have and should have been done was to convert the 350/2s that are coming off lease into a 2+2 comfortable high spec unit. Fit ASDO to them and possibly brief the staff on any differences between the two types of Desiro and that would be that. For diagramming reasons they should be renumbered 451s to ensure they don’t routinely get mixed into a 450 diagram. If you had a 451 and a 444 coupled together you’d think most passengers wouldn’t really care.
The only way of maintaining sort of adequate seat numbers in the peaks (to DfT’s satisfaction) would be to run your proposed converted units in 12 car formation.
 

pompeyfan

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The only way of maintaining sort of adequate seat numbers in the peaks (to DfT’s satisfaction) would be to run your proposed converted units in 12 car formation.

That was my original plan. Would give 11 12 car formations plus 4 spare 4 car units for maintenance spares.
 

Monty

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Hopefully get to have look around a fully refurbished unit next week. Signed them back in December in their GatEx condition for test trains but haven't touched them since. :lol:

Will be interesting to see if they have completed all the door and traction interlock mods on the unit in question.
 

387star

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The 377s in coach 1 and 4 have a very generous layout with ten full size standard class tables aligning perfectly with Windows. A sad day if they lose that one day
I'd like to see that on a 442 as the Gatwick refurbishment saw very few tables and some seats next to plastic walls
 

Matt Taylor

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The first unit to arrive at Fratton for training in October was 2404 and it has today moved from Eastleigh back to Bournemouth so it should be fully refurbished. It's now in full SWR livery.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I see the obvious solution to all the Pompey line disatisfaction to whether they want 442's or 450's is to put the 444's back on the Pompey direct and via Eastleigh, and put the 442's back where they rightfully belong on the SWML.... to Poole and Weymouth. Problem solved!!!

May I ask how you think that would work? With the 442s being based at Bournemouth it was looked at using them nearer to home but; the 442s were built to provide enough units for an hourly Waterloo - Weymouth (10 cars Waterloo - Bournemouth) and an hourly Waterloo - Poole (10 cars throughout), this gave a fleet of around 21 diagrammed units from 24.

Move forward to 2019; Waterloo to Weymouth is now half-hourly with an increasing majority (and more from May 2019) running as 10 cars between London and Bournemouth. Turnarounds have also generally been increased at Waterloo to 45 minutes for performance reasons. This actually requires 25 x 5 car units for the Waterloo/Bournemouth/Weymouth circuits more than the actual number of 442s built let alone leaving an for exams/maintenance/traffic spares.

It’s no good having a mixed fleet as the unit detaching from a down service at Bournemouth re-attaches to the next London service returning from Bournemouth some two hours earlier than the unit from Weymouth meaning during the course of the day virtually all the units couple to a different unit.

Only way you could achieve this is half-hourly 10 cars Waterloo to Poole with 442s and a connecting shuttle to Weymouth, would like to see anyone try and sell this to the good folk of West Dorset or make 442s and 444s compatible which if even mechanically and electrically possible would likely cost a fortune.

That’s why the 442s are going on the Pompey Direct.
 

BlyRF

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Why do I always get the feeling this unit is not meant to be in service anymore? lol
 

Journeyman

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The 377s in coach 1 and 4 have a very generous layout with ten full size standard class tables aligning perfectly with Windows. A sad day if they lose that one day
I'd like to see that on a 442 as the Gatwick refurbishment saw very few tables and some seats next to plastic walls

The 377 driving car layout is one of the best and most comfortable you'll find anywhere. Not the ironing-board newer ones, of course.
 

D6975

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Class 166s have started operating the Cardiff to Portsmouth service since the Autumn as part of the Turbo transfer programme.
Just to make it clear, the majority were still 158s last week. I spent the day at Westbury and only 2 diagrams were turbos.
 

swt_passenger

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The 377 driving car layout is one of the best and most comfortable you'll find anywhere. Not the ironing-board newer ones, of course.
Aren’t some of them 2+3 (without tables) in all coaches? But not much relevance to 442s though.
 

Doomotron

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The 377 driving car layout is one of the best and most comfortable you'll find anywhere. Not the ironing-board newer ones, of course.
Going a bit off-topic, but the 375/6 and /7s have got more comfortable seating (some of the best in the country) in the whole train.
 

Doomotron

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The same seating that LNR seem to think constitutes First Class! :) It isn't bad though the armrests are a little high.
Yeah, they are high. Best way to use them is to put your elbow right to the back or perch it on the end.

Anyway, back on topic: I haven't been checking on this thread much recently so what's the general news with these?
 
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