Is there a right to free water on long distance trains?

leytongabriel · 4 Mar 2019

In the buffet car of a Eurostar recently and a woman came up asking if she could have a glass of water. This used to be available with the milk, sugar etc. in the corner.
Before the barrista could reply, a catering manager-type person cut in and said no they only sell bottles of water. He continued, justifying this by saying that Eurostar was a commercial operation and needed to make a profit.
So apart from his attitude ( which was rather ott 'I'm the boss') what does this mean for water rights on trains? In normal cafes and bars I believe there is a right to ask for water. Does this apply to trains or not? Has there been any consensus or standard working practice? Aside from the question
of water for medicinal / health purposes, it's quite standard in France to have water with your coffee. What does the panel think?

RailUK Forums

gazthomas · 4 Mar 2019

I think they should have provided a glass of water. Yes, Eurostar is a commercial operation but it should not be an unethical operation

cf111 · 4 Mar 2019

I don't think that there is any requirement to provide free drinking water on trains. I don't think that there will be potable water from a tap on many units.

I have been on heavily delayed East Coast (as they were) and ScotRail trains where free bottles of water, tea, coffee and soft drinks were provided from the trolley. You also get a free bottle of water on ScotRail if you buy a whisky miniature from the trolley, I particularly like the Auchentoshan!

Chris Butler · 4 Mar 2019

Legally, you're not correct. Unlicensed premises in the UK do not have to supply free drinking water. Licensed premises do, but they can charge for use of a glass and for service (!!!).

In the real world though, I have never been refused tap water if I am purchasing something else.

Bletchleyite · 4 Mar 2019

Chris Butler said:
Legally, you're not correct. Unlicensed premises in the UK do not have to supply free drinking water. Licensed premises do, but they can charge for use of a glass and for service (!!!).

In the real world though, I have never been refused tap water if I am purchasing something else.

With trains there is the complexity that they may not actually be carrying drinkable cold tap water at all.

They also aren't licensed premises even though they sell alcohol - they are exempt because alcohol licensing in the UK is a local authority matter and a train obviously doesn't spend its whole time in one authority area. So they would not be obligated on that basis either.

I've never known a pub in the UK charge, though, many these days just put a water container out on the bar with glasses to help yourself. It's miuch more common outside of the UK to charge or refuse.

Bletchleyite · 4 Mar 2019

leytongabriel said:
So apart from his attitude ( which was rather ott 'I'm the boss')

That's the typical SNCF "cheminot" attitude (or its Belgian equivalent) and is very much the norm with the French and Belgian E* staff. It's one of the many reasons for E* not being a nice way to travel these days.

The UK based staff are much better, as the attitude is rather different.

BucksBones · 5 Mar 2019

cf111 said:
I don't think that there is any requirement to provide free drinking water on trains. I don't think that there will be potable water from a tap on many units.

!

Exactly - I’ve never known drinking water available on any UK train other than in bottles. You could hardly expect a trolley service to be able to dish out free drinking water and the buffet cars are scarcely better equipped. I don’t even think it would occur to many people to ask as it’s obviously not available.

It’s clearly a service that has been routinely offered on Eurostar so I suppose their passengers have got used to it; it’s certainly not a right though.

DarloRich · 5 Mar 2019

leytongabriel said:
In the buffet car of a Eurostar recently and a woman came up asking if she could have a glass of water. This used to be available with the milk, sugar etc. in the corner.
Before the barrista could reply, a catering manager-type person cut in and said no they only sell bottles of water. He continued, justifying this by saying that Eurostar was a commercial operation and needed to make a profit.
So apart from his attitude ( which was rather ott 'I'm the boss') what does this mean for water rights on trains? In normal cafes and bars I believe there is a right to ask for water. Does this apply to trains or not? Has there been any consensus or standard working practice? Aside from the question
of water for medicinal / health purposes, it's quite standard in France to have water with your coffee. What does the panel think?

In this situation if you want water you pay for it. Surely that is obvious?

Mag_seven · 5 Mar 2019

Is there a right to free water on long distance trains?

Whatever made you think that there was? You can always ask of course but if water is being sold then the only way to get some is to purchase it!

i4n · 5 Mar 2019

leytongabriel said:
...In normal cafes and bars I believe there is a right to ask for water

You're only entitled to free tap water if the establishment you're in has an 'in' license to sell alcohol. If they don't, the establishment is within their rights to charge you for tap water.

Surprised me when I first found that one out.

tiptoptaff · 5 Mar 2019

Conversely, I've never seen anyone refused free water on a train who genuinely needed it.

stut · 5 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's the typical SNCF "cheminot" attitude (or its Belgian equivalent) and is very much the norm with the French and Belgian E* staff. It's one of the many reasons for E* not being a nice way to travel these days.

The UK based staff are much better, as the attitude is rather different.

Unfortunately, I have to agree that this is my experience. Even as a French speaker, trying to get French buffet crew to heat up baby food for you is pretty much impossible (even though this is a service the website tells you is available).

OTOH, I'm a big fan of the SNCF-branded baby changing mats in the old trainsets!

Spartacus · 5 Mar 2019

leytongabriel said:
In normal cafes and bars I believe there is a right to ask for water.

You've a right to ask for a free elephant should you so wish

underbank · 5 Mar 2019

Surely it was the response that is wrong, i.e. going on about it being a commercial operation. If they didn't have drinkable tap water, why not just say that?

Journeyman · 5 Mar 2019

Spartacus said:
You've a right to ask for a free elephant should you so wish

Absolutely! Asking for something and getting it are two entirely different things!

al78 · 5 Mar 2019

In Horsham we have a scheme where some businesses supply free drinking water if someone brings their own bottle. The objective is to encourage people to re-use plastic bottles, rather than buying a new bottle of water, then throwing it away, contributing to the plastic pollution that we have all been informed is a major problem in the worlds oceans.

More difficult to do that on a train, since it is not connected to the mains, and in the case of many businesses, doing the objectively right thing takes second place to making money, unless doing the right thing and making money are aligned. This is at least partly why we have pollution problems in the first place.

anme · 5 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's the typical SNCF "cheminot" attitude (or its Belgian equivalent) and is very much the norm with the French and Belgian E* staff. It's one of the many reasons for E* not being a nice way to travel these days.

The UK based staff are much better, as the attitude is rather different.

I am a regular Eurostar traveller and this is nonsense.

bunnahabhain · 5 Mar 2019

anme said:
I am a regular Eurostar traveller and this is nonsense.

Same, I've always been looked after very well by Eurostar staff of all nationalities.

kristiang85 · 5 Mar 2019

I think there should be free water if there is a long delay (e.g. an incident on the line), but generally I wouldn't expect free tap water on a train (mainly because I wouldn't exactly trust it).

I would have more issue with the way the manager rejected the request to be honest - why not say "sorry, this train doesn't have drinking water available from the tap, but you're welcome to purchase a bottle"?

ivanhoe · 5 Mar 2019

I would argue that an extremely high % of passengers would not expect to get free water on a train , unless there were extreme circumstances. I'm sorry, but a c'est non possible Monsieur , with a gallic shrug is not grounds for hurt.

SHD · 5 Mar 2019

stut said:
Unfortunately, I have to agree that this is my experience. Even as a French speaker, trying to get French buffet crew to heat up baby food for you is pretty much impossible (even though this is a service the website tells you is available).

OTOH, I'm a big fan of the SNCF-branded baby changing mats in the old trainsets!

There's a chauffe-biberon in the nursery space in coach 7 of Duplex TGVs

Darandio · 5 Mar 2019

Never mind free water, try asking for hot water on CrossCountry. Just saw a tweet with a complaint that they were charged £2.30 for a cup of hot water. :lol:

Bletchleyite · 5 Mar 2019

Darandio said:
Never mind free water, try asking for hot water on CrossCountry. Just saw a tweet with a complaint that they were charged £2.30 for a cup of hot water.

Given that a tea bag costs about 5p, I don't see an issue with charging for a cup of tea (which tends to be the cheapest hot drink) - after all, the cup and heating the water and the equipment to do so cost money. It does surprise me that in most places hot water is given out free, and that people expect it to be so.

Master29 · 5 Mar 2019

I once asked for tap water on a GWR HST, knowing they don`t have this on HST`s (not drinking anyway) I wondered what his response would be. To my surprise he said no we don`t have drinking water but if you have a medical condition and need to take tablets (nudge, nudge, wink wink is exactly what he said and did) you can have one. He knew I knew what he meant and he gave me a free bottle of water when I said yep, I have a really serious one jokingly. I wonder if this is a company policy rather than a rule and added to the fact we were almost at the conclusion of our journey it may just be discretionary. P.S I was willing to buy one as I was very thirsty.
Back to the thread though I was under the impression licensed premises were under obligation to serve tap water if asked?

Master29 · 5 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Given that a tea bag costs about 5p, I don't see an issue with charging for a cup of tea (which tends to be the cheapest hot drink) - after all, the cup and heating the water and the equipment to do so cost money. It does surprise me that in most places hot water is given out free, and that people expect it to be so.

Ah but isn`t that because of nursing mothers? I`m not sure whether this is necessarily a requirement though.

Spartacus · 6 Mar 2019

Master29 said:
Back to the thread though I was under the impression licensed premises were under obligation to serve tap water if asked?

They are (well, drinking water anyway, it needent be from a tap in England and Wales, though Scotland does specify tap water), but trains aren’t licenced to sell alcohol, they don’t need one so it doesn’t apply here. You can charge for it’s supply though, by charging for what it’s served in or for the service itself, such as a waiter, though I’d expect that would have to be on line with the premises normal policy. I dread to think what the logistics would be if trains had to be able to provide free drinking water on demand all things considered. Probably only free at the point of use as it might be quite costly, and might even in extreme cases lead to either loss of seats or abandoning of on-train alcohol sales.
I think there’s a ‘reasonably available’ clause too, which I suspect would apply trains with no piped supply, uncertainty of supply etc too.

Bletchleyite · 6 Mar 2019

Spartacus said:
They are (well, drinking water anyway, it needent be from a tap in England and Wales, though Scotland does specify tap water), but trains aren’t licenced to sell alcohol, they don’t need one so it doesn’t apply here. You can charge for it’s supply though, by charging for what it’s served in or for the service itself, such as a waiter, though I’d expect that would have to be on line with the premises normal policy. I dread to think what the logistics would be if trains had to be able to provide free drinking water on demand all things considered. Probably only free at the point of use as it might be quite costly, and might even in extreme cases lead to either loss of seats or abandoning of on-train alcohol sales.
I think there’s a ‘reasonably available’ clause too, which I suspect would apply trains with no piped supply, uncertainty of supply etc too.

As a slight aside, Russian or Chinese trains (or some former USSR countries) supply free hot water from a samovar, often coal-fired, at the end of each coach.

BucksBones · 6 Mar 2019

I’m amazed this thread is still going, given that the answer to the original question posed is a simple ‘no!’

richw · 6 Mar 2019

Impossible really as well! How much water capacity would a train need for enough free tap water to go around. Would add a lot of weight too, and not sure I trust the hygiene of such water holding tanks having seen some elsewhere away from the rails

Master29 · 6 Mar 2019

BucksBones said:
I’m amazed this thread is still going, given that the answer to the original question posed is a simple ‘no!’

But it isn`t just simply "no" though is it. Granted as a blanket statement that may be true but there are many different factors and variables needing to be taken into account and quite frankly the customer host was petty on this occasion sounding off about commercial operations. That may be so but there is still a service aspect here too. That`s one example.

Is there a right to free water on long distance trains?

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member