Trivia: Longest possible journey entirely on 25kV without reversing?

InOban · 5 Mar 2019

See my post #24!

RailUK Forums

Doomotron · 5 Mar 2019

I'd just like to say that HS1 uses a different OHE system so most trains couldn't actually use it, let alone change to it. The wires are at a different height.

deltic08 · 5 Mar 2019

InOban said:
See my post #24!

So you did. Too much detail to take in.

SHD · 5 Mar 2019

The longest possible journey on 25 kV only is probably somewhere in the Russian far East or in China.

In Europe, without complicated detours, St Pancras - Aix en Provence TGV. (The last kilometers between the LGV and Marseille St Charles, as well as the Blancarde junction, are 1.5 kV DC).

Note : with the opening of the CNM (Contournement Nîmes Montpellier), Montpellier Sud de France will indeed be the furthest point.

higthomas · 5 Mar 2019

Also, given we're on a forum, I feel duty bound to say that the London-Scotland loop can be done twice in different directions!
Different track going north and south.

e.g. Kings Cross - Scotland- Willseden-NLL-GOBLIN-South Tottenham-Lea Bridge-Stratford-NLL-South Hampstead-Scotland-Kings Cross

AM9 · 5 Mar 2019

Doomotron said:
I'd just like to say that HS1 uses a different OHE system so most trains couldn't actually use it, let alone change to it. The wires are at a different height.

That's not a problem if you use a class 319 because two of them had their pantograph limit switches adjusted so that they didn't drop when they rose under the much higher conductor wire in the Channel Tunnel.

SHD · 5 Mar 2019

AM9 said:
That's not a problem if you use a class 319 because two of them had their pantograph limit switches adjusted so that they didn't drop when they rose under the much higher conductor wire in the Channel Tunnel.

I had no idea that these robust and very British workhorses had been under the Channel tunnel!
I wonder what speed they travelled to within the Tunnel. Surely they could not have been fitted with TVM?...

edwin_m · 5 Mar 2019

SHD said:
I had no idea that these robust and very British workhorses had been under the Channel tunnel!
I wonder what speed they travelled to within the Tunnel. Surely they could not have been fitted with TVM?...

I think it was on a "one engine in steam" basis.

Class 92s use the Tunnel routinely so pantographs must be compatible (and the Tunnel must surely be the highest OLE in Europe?).

HowardGWR · 5 Mar 2019

Steve Harris said:
Don't you mean LGV ? (Line Grand Vitesse).

Pedants' corner. Ligne à Grande Vitesse.

urpert · 5 Mar 2019

SHD said:
I had no idea that these robust and very British workhorses had been under the Channel tunnel!
I wonder what speed they travelled to within the Tunnel. Surely they could not have been fitted with TVM?...

Until very recently they carried special cast nameplates and were named ‘Cheriton’ and ‘Coquelles’. I think they only lost them when repainted into GTR grey undercoat livery and I assume (hope) they are now in the NRM collection.

Ken H · 5 Mar 2019

rower40 said:
Newcastle Central, High Level Bridge Junction, Greensfield Junction, King Edward Bridge East Junction, King Edward Bridge North Junction, Newcastle Central. And repeat.
Electrified to provide a diversionary route, and a means to turn an electric train round.

I wondered is something like that was possible round Glasgow. cathcart area maybe?

krus_aragon · 5 Mar 2019

edwin_m said:
Class 92s use the Tunnel routinely so pantographs must be compatible (and the Tunnel must surely be the highest OLE in Europe?).

In a literal sense, it's probably also the lowest OLE in Europe.

E759 · 5 Mar 2019

AM9 said:
That's not a problem if you use a class 319 because two of them had their pantograph limit switches adjusted so that they didn't drop when they rose under the much higher conductor wire in the Channel Tunnel.

I was on the public 319 trip from Sandling a short way into the Tunnel and back (i.e. not the royal trip right through). We failed in the tunnel and there was much head-scratching. Eventually we headed back and I think that was the last run of the day? No idea if the units were the ones used for the official opening? If not, I probably finally now know why we failed!

Edit:
Public trip mentioned here and say same units
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-319s-through-the-channel-tunnel-photos.172804/

Edit2:
A nice picture here on Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319
[Scroll down to notable units.]

AM9 · 5 Mar 2019

SHD said:
I had no idea that these robust and very British workhorses had been under the Channel tunnel!
I wonder what speed they travelled to within the Tunnel. Surely they could not have been fitted with TVM?...

Here is the story as recorded on Wikipeadia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319

Notable units

319008 operating "Tunnel Explorer" excursions into the Channel Tunnel on 7 May 1994 from Sandling railway station; the first public-carrying passenger trains through the tunnel

Nameplate commemorating crossing on 10 December 1993
Units 319008 Cheriton and 319009 Coquelles are notable for two reasons:

On 10 December 1993, they travelled through the Channel Tunnel to Calais-Fréthun and back with a party of invited guests, after the construction consortium TransManche Link (who were responsible for the construction of the Tunnel) had transferred responsibility for operations and management over to Eurotunnel. Their pantographs were modified at Selhurst Depot beforehand to account for the higher OHL height at Cheriton and in the tunnel. For the subsequent "Folkestone 1994" event on 7 May 1994, which saw the first paying members of the public taken into the tunnel by train. On 26 March 1994 units 319008 and 319009 were named Cheriton and Coquelles respectively at Victoria and plaques adorned with the Union Flag and Tricolore were installed on their motor carriages.[11][21]

On 26 March 1994, they set a record for the shortest London to Brighton journey time, at 37 minutes 57 seconds. This record stood until 2005 when the "Speed Run" event, organised by Southern, using Class 377 units 377 472 and 377 474 set a slightly quicker record of 36 minutes 56 seconds.

Interesting to note that the 319s held the record for the fastest London to Brighton time, and even today, that time is only 61 seconds slower than much more powerful Electrostars. I don't know why so many here claim that they are slow.

vidal · 5 Mar 2019

Off topic, but what's the longest a diesel could travel given a very lenient signaler? Inverness to Poland on a pacer anyone?

James.

Steve Harris · 5 Mar 2019

HowardGWR said:
Pedants' corner. Ligne à Grande Vitesse.

Which translates into English exactly what i posted !! I don't expect everyone on this forum to be able to understand French. Besides, I posted it in English to keep within Forum Rules. :smile:

etr221 · 6 Mar 2019

SHD said:
The longest possible journey on 25 kV only is probably somewhere in the Russian far East or in China.

On Russian Railways from Mariinsk (AIUI, change point on the Trans-Siberian to 25kV) to Vladivostock is c5600km, to Mys Astafyeva (just beyond Nakhodka) c5720km, more or less direct. Don't know how much further you'd get by alternative routes.
Nor do I have any knowledge of the Chinese or Indian electrified networks, and how far you could get there by devious routings (you get the really long distances when you get from one end of a system to the other and back - and back again)

edwin_m · 6 Mar 2019

AM9 said:
Interesting to note that the 319s held the record for the fastest London to Brighton time, and even today, that time is only 61 seconds slower than much more powerful Electrostars. I don't know why so many here claim that they are slow.

The Electrostars are performance-limited when running on DC due to limitations on the amount of power available. They are also heavier and need more auxiliary power for HVAC. On AC I'd expect an Electrostar to beat a 319 by a significant margin every time.

laseandre · 6 Mar 2019

Steve Harris said:
Which translates into English exactly what i posted !! I don't expect everyone on this forum to be able to understand French. Besides, I posted it in English to keep within Forum Rules.

I would say it's acceptable to use other languages when referring to proper nouns like this. LGV specifically means the French "Ligne à Grande Vitesse". Also, "Line Grand Vitesse" is a half-cocked translation, Vitesse isn't a word in English. If you're really translating it into English, it's just "High Speed Line".

SHD · 6 Mar 2019

laseandre said:
I would say it's acceptable to use other languages when referring to proper nouns like this. LGV specifically means the French "Ligne à Grande Vitesse". Also, "Line Grand Vitesse" is a half-cocked translation, Vitesse isn't a word in English. If you're really translating it into English, it's just "High Speed Line".

It was a very British car, though, with an unmistakable and very loveable raised eyebrows "face" due to the headlights design!

urpert said:
Until very recently they carried special cast nameplates and were named ‘Cheriton’ and ‘Coquelles’. I think they only lost them when repainted into GTR grey undercoat livery and I assume (hope) they are now in the NRM collection.

A fool and his money could devise together a 319 London-Paris Nord stopper service!
The experience of the Channel Tunnel in a 319 must have been something.

jyte · 6 Mar 2019

vidal said:
Off topic, but what's the longest a diesel could travel given a very lenient signaler? Inverness to Poland on a pacer anyone?

James.

Don't think you'd be allowed a diesel train through the tunnel.

Now a bi-mode where most of the focus is on diesel but with a pantograph and transformer for the tunnel bit might work...
Just don't give Chris Grayling any ideas...

edwin_m · 6 Mar 2019

jyte said:
Just don't give Chris Grayling any ideas...

DfT has already approached a three reputable railway operators to provide extra services through the Tunnel:

Ffestiniog Railway
Talyllyn Railway
Vale of Rheidol Railway

urpert · 6 Mar 2019

jyte said:
Don't think you'd be allowed a diesel train through the tunnel.

Now a bi-mode where most of the focus is on diesel but with a pantograph and transformer for the tunnel bit might work...
Just don't give Chris Grayling any ideas...

It could be hauled by one of the Eurotunnel rescue locos with exhaust scrubbers.

SHD · 6 Mar 2019

jyte said:
Don't think you'd be allowed a diesel train through the tunnel.

Now a bi-mode where most of the focus is on diesel but with a pantograph and transformer for the tunnel bit might work...
Just don't give Chris Grayling any ideas...

A Porterbrook Class 719!

Steve Harris · 6 Mar 2019

laseandre said:
I would say it's acceptable to use other languages when referring to proper nouns like this. LGV specifically means the French "Ligne à Grande Vitesse". Also, "Line Grand Vitesse" is a half-cocked translation, Vitesse isn't a word in English. If you're really translating it into English, it's just "High Speed Line".

Vitesse isn't a word in English ??

I think you need to research that before making a statement like you have.

Rover, that great failed car builder made such a thing as a Vitesse model. I should know, I owned one !! And yes, it was a crap car !

If you don't believe me, google it.

SHD · 6 Mar 2019

Steve Harris said:
Vitesse isn't a word in English ??

I think you need to research that before making a statement like you have.

Rover, that great failed car builder made such a thing as a Vitesse model. I should know, I owned one !! And yes, it was a crap car !

If you don't believe me, google it.

Oh yes the beautiful but failed SD1 was also called Vitesse!

But I was thinking about the Triumph of the same name. So cute. And a convertible too! What could be a Britisher form of motoring?

laseandre · 6 Mar 2019

SHD said:
It was a very British car, though, with an unmistakable and very loveable raised eyebrows "face" due to the headlights design!

Steve Harris said:
Vitesse isn't a word in English ??

I think you need to research that before making a statement like you have.

Rover, that great failed car builder made such a thing as a Vitesse model. I should know, I owned one !! And yes, it was a crap car !

If you don't believe me, google it.

I know there's a car called the Vitesse but it's not in the dictionary! My point was that "Line Grand Vitesse" is a nonsensical non-translation of what LGV actually means.

Steve Harris · 6 Mar 2019

laseandre said:
I know there's a car called the Vitesse but it's not in the dictionary! My point was that "Line Grand Vitesse" is a nonsensical non-translation of what LGV actually means.

Really depends on what dictionary you are using. Because, it is in the Collins English Dictionary.

As a side note, most of so called "English" words are not English in nature, as we have nicked them from other languages... French & Latin to name but two.
I will stop there as we are going wildly off topic an't we bruv ??

Shall we agree to disagree ? Or we going to carry on playing football with moving goal posts !

E759 · 7 Mar 2019

SHD said:
It was a very British car, though, with an unmistakable and very loveable raised eyebrows "face" due to the headlights design!

A fool and his money could devise together a 319 London-Paris Nord stopper service!
The experience of the Channel Tunnel in a 319 must have been something.

Certainly was a memorable experience and the more so for breaking down in the Tunnel itself. I would have been 33 years of age at the time so long past my days of carrying an ABC and Thermos. The trip would have been arranged by my father who remained keenly interested in Railways to his dying days. We found decades of RCTS journals and magazines, tickets and shed logs back to 1940s in his loft a few months ago. I don't recall the tickets being booked in advance though, turn-up-and-go I thought. May be bad memory though. There is not a lot about 1994 I remember apart from this one trip! Was ages before I took a real trip through (on business).

AlastairFraser · 7 Mar 2019

Steve Harris said:
Don't you mean LGV ? (Line Grand Vitesse).

Yep,sorry,forgot the difference

Trivia: Longest possible journey entirely on 25kV without reversing?

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