Rules about reserved seats

kristiang85 · 5 Mar 2019

I definitely think for long-distance journeys seat reservations should be honoured; yes it might be annoying for non-reservees to move when asked, but if the problem is announced at every stop, or indeed on the platforms when people are waiting, that will be helped. Those of us who go to the effort to a) book seats and b) make sure we get the trains we booked them for (which I'm very diligent with, even when not on advanced tickets) should not have an uncomfortable journey because the TOC yet again had a failing system (Yes Virgin and GWR I'm looking at you. IMO paper cards are so much better).

In my experience people have been very understanding to move, as I would be if asked myself in that position.

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_toommm_ · 5 Mar 2019

kristiang85 said:
I definitely think for long-distance journeys seat reservations should be honoured; yes it might be annoying for non-reservees to move when asked, but if the problem is announced at every stop, or indeed on the platforms when people are waiting, that will be helped. Those of us who go to the effort to a) book seats and b) make sure we get the trains we booked them for (which I'm very diligent with, even when not on advanced tickets) should not have an uncomfortable journey because the TOC yet again had a failing system (Yes Virgin and GWR I'm looking at you. IMO paper cards are so much better).

In my experience people have been very understanding to move, as I would be if asked myself in that position.

But surely that isn't fair for the passenger who needs to sit in what they think is an unreserved seat, potentially having to move at every stop...

ejstubbs · 5 Mar 2019

yorkie said:
As there were no reservations, you had no right to ask them to move.

The OP had every right to ask them to move, same as he had every right to ask them to dance polka down the aisle, or perform any other action allowed by law. However, in the circumstance described they had no obligation to comply, and the OP had no right to insist. (Which, from his description of the exchange, he didn't.)

aifo · 5 Mar 2019

I had a First Advance ticket with reservation on Sunday between Doncaster and King's Cross and found that the previous train from Leeds had been cancelled and mine was packed. Did the "Excuse me, you're in my seat" thing and they claimed that First Class had been declassified. The box above the seat was displaying that the seat was reserved. In the end one of their companions gave his seat to them, so I could sit in my reserved seat.
I would have been happy just waiting for the next train if I'd known the situation but even with a full refund I would have been out of pocket.
The guard did make an announcement about letting passengers take their reserved seats, so I guess they hadn't been suspended.

Craig2601 · 5 Mar 2019

VTWC do occasionally suspend seat reservations, such as was the case when the first 2 trains of the day had been cancelled and everyone then proceeded to head for the 3rd to Euston from Glasgow.

Bletchleyite · 5 Mar 2019

Declassification does not automatically suspend reservations, of course. All it means is that a Standard passenger can occupy any available First Class seat; a reserved seat is not available, all it's done is changed from a First Class reserved seat to a Standard one.

kristiang85 · 5 Mar 2019

_toommm_ said:
But surely that isn't fair for the passenger who needs to sit in what they think is an unreserved seat, potentially having to move at every stop...

How is it unfair? If you want to guarantee a seat on your journey, then reserve one and be organised.

Obviously if it is someone with reduced mobility then decent people wouldn't ask them to move,but I would presume people who really need seats will have them reserved anyway, or at least there will always be priority seats available.

bramling · 5 Mar 2019

kristiang85 said:
How is it unfair? If you want to guarantee a seat on your journey, then reserve one and be organised.

Not everyone can tie down the exact time they will be travelling, and it's nothing to do with not being organised. Why should they always have to fit around those with reservations?

Parallel · 5 Mar 2019

CrossCountry are the worst for this. If there is no physical ticket or electric display showing a seat is reserved, then it is not really enforceable IMO. Last time I used XC the train had a fault which affected the displays and the guard was insisting people sat in their reserved seats. It lead to multiple squabbles at every stop, and on 4 car Voyagers there is no unreserved carriage so it’s not possible for those who couldn’t or didn’t reserve seats to know which seats were free. IMO if the screens are broken and there are no cards, it should be a case of find a seat and sit in it. Usually on XC if the train is full, you only have to wait one stop before seats become available.

al78 · 5 Mar 2019

kristiang85 said:
How is it unfair? If you want to guarantee a seat on your journey, then reserve one and be organised.

Obviously if it is someone with reduced mobility then decent people wouldn't ask them to move,but I would presume people who really need seats will have them reserved anyway, or at least there will always be priority seats available.

Grossly oversimplistic, and basically reduces the flexibilty of rail travel down to that of aircraft, which will result in a migration of rail passengers to road. Is that really optimal? It is not always possible to know exactly what train you wish to use when going on an outing. That is the good thing about advance tickets, they allow cheaper travel for the price of giving up flexibility, for those who can nail down particular services they want to use.

snail · 5 Mar 2019

I'm surprised no one has referenced Byelaw 19

Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

I would interpret 'notice' to be the reservation card or electronic display.So no notice = no offence committed. It doesn't explicitly say that the absence of a notice renders any reservation invalid but I can't see any conditions that would compel someone to move in those circumstances. I would not regard a ticket as a notice.

trainophile · 6 Mar 2019

Guard on a 2-car 150 on Monday on the Marches line was apologising to a lady for the lack of seat reservations, due apparently to a train having to be substituted for some reason.

gazzaa2 · 7 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Not everyone can tie down the exact time they will be travelling, and it's nothing to do with not being organised. Why should they always have to fit around those with reservations?

The person with a reservation has often got the ticket very cheap in advance (which is often why they've booked it in advance) and without reservation you've probably paid full fare.

People are entitled to the seat they've reserved ordinarily, but if there's a problem with the booking system then don't take it out on the person sat there.

embers25 · 7 Mar 2019

Last week I was on a London to Edinburgh via Brum VTWC pendo with no reservations showing and with no seats left, someone came with a reservation for my seat. I pointed out there were no reservations today as the system was down and so you could sit where you liked and reservations didn't apply. Several people immediately yelled I was wrong and to move. I refused and requested they show me any byelaw that stated I should move as reservations apply when not shown and of course they couldn't. They all stated that it was always the case and how could I be so stupid. I just responded that it wasn't and if they wished to complain to the guard feel free and I would happily offer him the same byelaw challenge. They chose not to and I stayed put. Someone else also then refused to move at Milton Keynes so I wasn't alone. I agree the XC situation however is nuts and causes nothing but chaos when their guards try in vain to enforce it.

Bletchleyite · 7 Mar 2019

embers25 said:
Last week I was on a London to Edinburgh via Brum VTWC pendo with no reservations showing and with no seats left, someone came with a reservation for my seat. I pointed out there were no reservations today as the system was down and so you could sit where you liked and reservations didn't apply. Several people immediately yelled I was wrong and to move. I refused and requested they show me any byelaw that stated I should move as reservations apply when not shown and of course they couldn't. They all stated that it was always the case and how could I be so stupid. I just responded that it wasn't and if they wished to complain to the guard feel free and I would happily offer him the same byelaw challenge. They chose not to and I stayed put. Someone else also then refused to move at Milton Keynes so I wasn't alone. I agree the XC situation however is nuts and causes nothing but chaos when their guards try in vain to enforce it.

It is VTWC policy that reservations apply whether showing or not, and the guard may well have made an announcement, hence the view of other passengers (they often do). However, there is no legal basis for this as such, as the Byelaw specifies (as noted above) that the reservations have to be marked to apply, so no Byelaw offence has been committed.

The only other TOC I know of enforcing such a policy is XC.

Bletchleyite · 7 Mar 2019

6Gman said:
Well, exactly. They are inappropriate. Except where they are appropriate.

Let's put it this way - trains on which they are appropriate are the kind of trains where there are always tons of seats.

Any 2-car DMU that regularly carries standing passengers (thus necessitating reservations) should not be a 2-car DMU.

_toommm_ · 7 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Let's put it this way - trains on which they are appropriate are the kind of trains where there are always tons of seats.

Any 2-car DMU that regularly carries standing passengers (thus necessitating reservations) should not be a 2-car DMU.

A single 142 on the 16:29 Leeds to York via Harrogate yesterday. Awful decision.

embers25 · 8 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
It might well be that you don't commit a Byelaws offence in originally refusing to move to the passenger's request, but if the TM got involved and you continued to refuse, there could be legal consequences.

Personally, I don't know why some people (not holding a reservation) have the view that they are entitled to whichever seat they plonk themselves in as soon as the reservation displays fail (or cards aren't put out), and that the passenger who has reserved the seat they are sat in, has to stand - but that is rather by the by.

Why should I move in this situation and the TM would not be able to assist me in finding another seat as they'd have no clue what seats are available. I appreciate the frustration of the reserved person but you can't possibly enforce reserved seats in this situation without total chaos. I am curious as to what basis legally the TM would have to move me where I could get into trouble legally, apart from possibly refusing to follow the instructions of railway staff, but that would be a joke in this situation, just like it is when they instruct us to pay extra fares incorrectly, when they don't know the correct ticket restrictions.

embers25 · 8 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It is VTWC policy that reservations apply whether showing or not, and the guard may well have made an announcement, hence the view of other passengers (they often do). However, there is no legal basis for this as such, as the Byelaw specifies (as noted above) that the reservations have to be marked to apply, so no Byelaw offence has been committed.

The only other TOC I know of enforcing such a policy is XC.

The guard had made no such announcement and it's unenforceable anyway, just the usual issue of VTWC and XC guards interpreting the rules completely incorrectly to suit their whims and insisting they are right even when they are patently wrong. I've lost count of the number of times I've been challenged by Euston staff and on train VTWC crew when travelling the quite valid route from Euston-Crewe via Stoke, as it's barely slower than direct and often easier to get a seat than on the Chester/Holyhead Voyager. EMT guards never have an issue.

Deafdoggie · 8 Mar 2019

I find it easy to get a double seat to myself. If you see someone eyeing up the seat next to you, make eye contact, smile sweetly & gently pat the seat next to you. Get a double seat alone every time!

Bletchleyite · 8 Mar 2019

embers25 said:
The guard had made no such announcement

How do you know he didn't before you boarded?

Qwertychops · 8 Mar 2019

Another example where what ‘should’ be a reasonably simple and straightforward process gets overly complicated by the lack of open, transparent and consistent rules.
To me it’s appears simple, if a seat is reserved and you don’t hold the reservation you don’t sit in it, if you do you move if someone presents the ticket - There will be an occasion where someone takes the seat late, but that’s a rarity.
If the reservation system fails, then surely the default should be no reservations apply, if not you’d run the risk of having multiple empty seats as travellers don’t always turn up, it would be musical chairs for those without reservations as they would not know where to sit.

Personally it would be an issue for me if the rule was applied the other way, as potentially on a longish , you could potentially be up and moving 4 to 5 times, which is ridiculous. It would also be unfair to those ticket holders who are not able to make reservations prior to the journey starting

ValleyLines142 · 8 Mar 2019

extendedpaul said:
On three of my last four journeys on Great Western Railway, all off peak, there were no displayed seat reservations. On two of the trains the conductor announced this and apologised, one gave a reason of it being a different carriage formation than intended, the other just apologised. Both said there was plenty of room for all passengers or words to that effect.

On my journey last week, certainly from Newport where I boarded, there was no mention at all of the absence of reservations, just the usual welcome on board and the calling pattern which did not include Didcot Parkway. At Bristol Parkway a couple of ladies boarded who spoke to the two men sitting near me in airline seats and showed their reservations. They were most insistent that they HAD to sit there or would "get into trouble". The two men just got up immediately moved to the two identical seats immediately in front and everybody was happy.

While I found the incident mildly amusing it does show how passengers, especially occasional travellers, can be unsettled by the lack of marked reservations. There was no ticket check or sight of the conductor at all.

GWR are terrible for this at the moment, especially on their IETs where the electronic reservation system only seems to work on the 802s. Yesterday I caught the 1025 Cardiff to Paddington, always a busy one as it's the first Off Peak/Railcard holders ticket. At Cardiff I sat in what I believed was a free seat. Someone said they had that seat reserved seat so I moved. Then two ladies came up to me (one of them on a walking stick) saying they had reserved these seats too. By this point I was really cross but I thought it would have been inconsiderate to make them go elsewhere, therefore I stood in the vestibule until Newport where I got off at swapped to the front set.

extendedpaul · 9 Mar 2019

DanTrainMan185 said:
GWR are terrible for this at the moment, especially on their IETs where the electronic reservation system only seems to work on the 802s. Yesterday I caught the 1025 Cardiff to Paddington, always a busy one as it's the first Off Peak/Railcard holders ticket. At Cardiff I sat in what I believed was a free seat. Someone said they had that seat reserved seat so I moved. Then two ladies came up to me (one of them on a walking stick) saying they had reserved these seats too. By this point I was really cross but I thought it would have been inconsiderate to make them go elsewhere, therefore I stood in the vestibule until Newport where I got off at swapped to the front set.

Yup, that's the same train I have encountered the problem twice and the one I also catch most often, though from Newport.

Latest journey, at Newport the platform information display identified four numbered carriages as first class but reservations refer to letters, not numbers, for carriages. Result - passenger confusion. Just before the train arrived the numbers changed completely. Result - more passenger confusion. When the train pulled in there was a mass movement of passengers along the platform from front to back and vice versa to board as it was a double 5 carriage set and in reverse formation than most people still expected. Result - yet more passenger confusion and a fair degree of annoyance with people walking through carrying heavy cases.

After all that no displayed seat reservations anyway and again not a word from the conductor about it. I guess they're as fed up as passengers, as this has been going on for months.

embers25 · 9 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
How do you know he didn't before you boarded?

I was first one on and had forgotten Virgin has unreserved coaches. Another issue with Virgin is when they don't turn the reservation system on until 5 minutes before departure at Euston.

embers25 · 9 Mar 2019

extendedpaul said:
Yup, that's the same train I have encountered the problem twice and the one I also catch most often, though from Newport.

Latest journey, at Newport the platform information display identified four numbered carriages as first class but reservations refer to letters, not numbers, for carriages. Result - passenger confusion. Just before the train arrived the numbers changed completely. Result - more passenger confusion. When the train pulled in there was a mass movement of passengers along the platform from front to back and vice versa to board as it was a double 5 carriage set and in reverse formation than most people still expected. Result - yet more passenger confusion and a fair degree of annoyance with people walking through carrying heavy cases.

After all that no displayed seat reservations anyway and again not a word from the conductor about it. I guess they're as fed up as passengers, as this has been going on for months.

The lack of reservations on IEP's is a huge issue and if I moved each time a seat was claimed I'd be standing every time and for long periods. I appreciate people have made reservations but boarding at Penzance on a usually pretty empty train you could have to move every few minutes with the number of stops and, if unlucky, after all that moving still end up standing from Taunton to Reading.

route101 · 9 Mar 2019

embers25 said:
I was first one on and had forgotten Virgin has unreserved coaches. Another issue with Virgin is when they don't turn the reservation system on until 5 minutes before departure at Euston.

The 11 cars have C and U as unreserved in standard and the 9 carjust c .

Yeah had that problem a few times , sometimes it does not come on .

47271 · 9 Mar 2019

I travel around 70k miles a year by rail with work, so here are my tips to avoid the aggravation of reservations chat. I'm not saying that all of this is necessarily in the best interests of the majority of other passengers, it just keeps me sane on a day to day basis. I'm travelling on my own 95% of the time, which does make things a lot simpler.

If I know that a type of train has an unreserved coach or coaches then I'll always try to sit there regardless of whether I have a reservation myself.

If that coach is full or crowded and reservations are functioning then I'll look for my reserved seat and, if there is misuse, remove the person sat there if there's no obvious alternative, but only if there's no obvious alternative. Noone has ever refused to move for me, but that's because I take time to weigh up the alternatives first.

Cases or bags in seats get short shrift, especially on Scotrail. I don't speak to the owner but just point silently at the item, it's only once that this didn't get the desired result, so I moved it for them. I still wouldn't move a bag if there's an obvious alternative seat for me though.

If no reservations are displayed then it's a free for all but I'd always give way to anyone who I believed to have special needs or travelling in a legitimate group such as with young children.

Even if I know a service has no functioning reservations I'll always go to the section that I know to be unreserved as a first choice.

Mitchell Hurd · 9 Mar 2019

Well I know many people will disagree with this but I'm sorry - if you reserve a seat that means you've reserved it. I could be offered a lot of money and I still wouldn't accept no seat reservations. Obviously if you're booked train is a replacement train then that's different.

With CrossCountry, LNER and Virgin Trains, you've the option of choosing a specific seat from their train layout plan (haven't used Virgin Trains for a few years). So if I could get to that seat and the train isn't crowded then I'll be sitting in it and ignoring the 'no seat reservations' rubbish. I'll only accept it if the person can't physically move.

Not putting tickets out just to reduce a delay / or get it out on time in most cases would be very inconvenient to me - unless it's an occasion where I need the train to be on time or not too late.

For the 21/07/19 from Totnes back to Didcot, my only concern with opting for an IET via Reading is that if it's quite busy and I'm faced with having to move a family from a table seat (obviously not physically), then I'm kind of done for. Which is why the XC HST is probably the better choice of train to get - isn't a London service, 7 coaches if not a Voyager substitution, and starts at Plymouth.

So as far as I'm concerned, if you hold a reservation ticket then your seat reservation is valid if you're on the train type you're booked onto. The 'no seat reservations' information and announcements are just words to me - doesn't mean a thing.

221129 · 9 Mar 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
So as far as I'm concerned, if you hold a reservation ticket then your seat reservation is valid if you're on the train type you're booked onto. The 'no seat reservations' information and announcements are just words to me - doesn't mean a thing.

And if the train crew announce there are no reservations? what then? And if someone refuses to move from your non reserved seat, what would you do then?

Rules about reserved seats

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