Whats happened to some advanced fares?

VT 390 · 7 Mar 2019

I have just been looking on the national rail website for dates in may and noticed that a lot of the GWR Advanced fares have gone up a lot in price.
This can not be because of the may timetable change as fares before this date are affected as well. Does anyone know the reason for this and if it is just a temporary problem with the website and if any other TOC's are affected by this?

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JonathanH · 7 Mar 2019

It will just be removal of the cheapest level of fares. There has been a general move in this direction across the InterCity TOCs in the last few years.

Best thing to do is compare the available advance fares against the possible list of fares shown on the BRFares website (ignoring any promotional ones).

VT 390 · 7 Mar 2019

JonathanH said:
It will just be removal of the cheapest level of fares. There has been a general move in this direction across the InterCity TOCs in the last few years.

Do you know why it just seams to be GWR affected by this currently and only on standard class fares?

Hadders · 7 Mar 2019

An example of what would happen with all fares if regulation is removed.

VT 390 · 7 Mar 2019

Hadders said:
An example of what would happen with all fares if regulation is removed.

Are GWR fares not regulated then?

Tetchytyke · 7 Mar 2019

Advances aren't. They can offer as many, or as few, tiers as they want.

It'll be that the chespest tiers have either been deleted or the quotas reduced (possibly down to nil) on many trains.

VT 390 · 7 Mar 2019

Is it likely that any other TOC's will reduce the quantity of or increase the price of advanced fares anytime soon?

Tetchytyke · 7 Mar 2019

Very likely.

Hadders · 7 Mar 2019

VT 390 said:
Is it likely that any other TOC's will reduce the quantity of or increase the price of advanced fares anytime soon?

Quite possibly. It’s a well known way of increasing fares via the back door.

Say the TOC has the following tiers:

£10
£15
£20

The advertise the fare as ‘from £10’ and have 50 tickets at every tier - a bargain thinks everyone.

The TOC then becomes a bit strapped for cash so the adjust things and make only 10 tickets available at £10 and 90 at £20. They still claim fares are ‘from £10’ but their revenue potentially increases significantly.

The TOC gets even more strapped for cash. They remove all the £10 fares except for 5 on the very last train of the day (a time very few people want to travel) and increase the number of the most expensive tickets again. They still claim, quite legitimately that fares are ‘from £10’.

Do you see what’s happening? Fares regulation applies to many ‘walk on’ tickets (eg Off Peak Returns) and means they can only increase by a set amount every year. The TOCs do not like this and want it regulation removed and claim they will sell more cheap Advance tickets instead.

I’ll let you decide which is best.

Deerfold · 8 Mar 2019

VT 390 said:
Do you know why it just seams to be GWR affected by this currently and only on standard class fares?

They might be the only ones you've noticed. Similar things have happened to the East Coast over the last 10 years - travel on some trains with advance tickets bought as soon as they go on sale has gone up by at least 300%.

Mag_seven · 8 Mar 2019

Some people seem think that there is some sort of contractual right to advanced fares at pre-specified levels. As has been stated they are entirety unregulated so the TOC can do what they like with them. I suspect in this case GWR have calculated that there is sufficient demand such that they can increase the prices of any advanced fares offered.

LNW-GW Joint · 8 Mar 2019

It can't be a surprise that Advance prices go up in the summer and during peak travel periods (eg school hols).
There are many, many routes where there are no Advance fares at all, so you have to pay the walk-up price.

Ianno87 · 8 Mar 2019

Mag_seven said:
Some people seem think that there is some sort of contractual right to advanced fares at pre-specified levels. As has been stated they are entirety unregulated so the TOC can do what they like with them. I suspect in this case GWR have calculated that there is sufficient demand such that they can increase the prices of any advanced fares offered.

^^^^
This.

Advance fares should be seen as a bonus reduction of the normal fare to fill spare capacity, not a given right to always travel for a bargain (as much I love a bargain myself)

Wallsendmag · 8 Mar 2019

Deerfold said:
They might be the only ones you've noticed. Similar things have happened to the East Coast over the last 10 years - travel on some trains with advance tickets bought as soon as they go on sale has gone up by at least 300%.

You should have seen the spike in web sales this morning after the reservation release. I think it’s also true that more people know due to the alerting service so what cheap tickets there are vanish very very quickly.

ForTheLoveOf · 8 Mar 2019

Ianno87 said:
^^^^
This.

Advance fares should be seen as a bonus reduction of the normal fare to fill spare capacity, not a given right to always travel for a bargain (as much I love a bargain myself)

They aren't even there to fill spare capacity. They are a demand and revenue management tool, nothing more.

If a TOC thinks it can get more revenue by stopping the sale of Advances then it is highly likely they will indeed do so.

ForTheLoveOf · 8 Mar 2019

Wallsendmag said:
You should have seen the spike in web sales this morning after the reservation release. I think it’s also true that more people know due to the alerting service so what cheap tickets there are vanish very very quickly.

Do you have a morning where no reservations were released, to compare this to? It could be that an underlying factor is that more people tend to book at that time, though no doubt the release of Advances has a bearing on it.

Deerfold · 8 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Do you have a morning where no reservations were released, to compare this to? It could be that an underlying factor is that more people tend to book at that time, though no doubt the release of Advances has a bearing on it.

They're typically released a week at a time (though weekends are sometimes released separately), so yes. If you look on a day when they're released you can see the fares going up.

VT 390 · 8 Mar 2019

Deerfold said:
They're typically released a week at a time (though weekends are sometimes released separately), so yes. If you look on a day when they're released you can see the fares going up.

I don't think there all released weekly as the week beginning 20th May Virgin trains advanced fares only seam to be released until Thursday.

Deerfold · 8 Mar 2019

VT 390 said:
I don't think there all released weekly as the week beginning 20th May Virgin trains advanced fares only seam to be released until Thursday.

I did say typically, not always - and we were talking about East Coast advances.

Wallsendmag · 9 Mar 2019

VT 390 said:
I don't think there all released weekly as the week beginning 20th May Virgin trains advanced fares only seam to be released until Thursday.

I can guarantee that the LNER booking horizon only changes once a week.

yorkie · 9 Mar 2019

VT 390 said:
I don't think there all released weekly as the week beginning 20th May Virgin trains advanced fares only seam to be released until Thursday.

Each company can do it's its own thing. If @Wallsendmag gives an example it will refer to LNER, and you can be assured it's a trusted source.

ForTheLoveOf said:
Do you have a morning where no reservations were released, to compare this to?

Yes, all the other days of the week..

Envoy · 9 Mar 2019

You would think that with GWR having all those extra seats on their new Hitachi trains that more rather than less cheap advance tickets would be available.

EastCoastway · 9 Mar 2019

To be honest, we've just had a 1/3 off Advance fares promotion and it was quite successful. Other than those complaining that Advance fares should be return...

anme · 9 Mar 2019

Envoy said:
You would think that with GWR having all those extra seats on their new Hitachi trains that more rather than less cheap advance tickets would be available.

But that might just result in people who would have travelled anyway paying less. That's a terrible result for the TOC.

The railways try to maximise profit, not maximise passenger numbers.

MikeWM · 9 Mar 2019

Happened on Virgin West Coast a year or two ago, at least for some fares. Was quite easy to get a Cambridge to Liverpool advance for about £19, but now the cheapest tier is over £40

JonathanH · 9 Mar 2019

MikeWM said:
Happened on Virgin West Coast a year or two ago, at least for some fares. Was quite easy to get a Cambridge to Liverpool advance for about £19, but now the cheapest tier is over £40

That kind of brought them into line with the other Intercity operators - who didn't price through advance fares to destinations beyond London at just a little more than the fare from northern destinations to the London Terminal. It is a bit annoying because there are times now when it is cheaper not to have a through fare.

Envoy · 10 Mar 2019

anme said:
But that might just result in people who would have travelled anyway paying less. That's a terrible result for the TOC.

The railways try to maximise profit, not maximise passenger numbers.

The cheap airlines try to do both! Every empty seat on a train means loss of potential income. I know of many people who will willingly buy cheap tickets on Megabus and National Express for journeys that take twice as long as using the trains. So, if seats are likely to be available, does it make sense to hold prices on the high side and see then empty when they could be pinching business from Megabus and National Express? I also note that with these coach lines, you don’t have to book 11 weeks ahead to get low prices or go through all the split ticket nonsense to avoid getting ripped off.

Wallsendmag · 10 Mar 2019

But who's to say that those people that want to pay £1 will get the £1 tickets and they won't be snapped up by someone willing to pay the full fare? Leaving the people only willing to pay £1 (plus 50p booking fee) to go by bus and the railways yield management in tatters.

JonathanH · 10 Mar 2019

Envoy said:
I also note that with these coach lines, you don’t have to book 11 weeks ahead to get low prices or go through all the split ticket nonsense to avoid getting ripped off.

All companies charge what the market will bear. That means that you do get 'split ticket nonsense' on National Express and to a lesser extent on Megabus.

Compare prices for South Shields to London and Sunderland to London on the 436 coach as an example. I'm sure there are many more examples where the National Express fares to the main destinations are cheaper than they are to other places where the coach stops.

Train companies know that people will pay the fares they charge. They don't have to offer the super cheap fares we might have seen in the past because people are paying the higher fares they are now charging.

JonathanH · 10 Mar 2019

Wallsendmag said:
But who's to say that those people that want to pay £1 will get the £1 tickets and they won't be snapped up by someone willing to pay the full fare? Leaving the people only willing to pay £1 (plus 50p booking fee) to go by bus and the railways yield management in tatters.

Both National Express and Megabus now charge a £1 booking fee, not 50p. National Express set up their website so you can only buy one single or return ticket at a time.

They know that their market will accept this charge even if that market doesn't like it.

Whats happened to some advanced fares?

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