GN Class 717

petersi · 9 Mar 2019

Interesting response from their social media team in this twitter thread
https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/1104291743019732992

to quote
"
We have been running tests and found that the trains are not fit for service just yet. Unfortunately, we have not been provided too much of the behind-the-scenes and can only apologise in the mean time. ^Alex.M "

Also passengers seam to be fed up with the reliability of the 313's

RailUK Forums

jon0844 · 9 Mar 2019

daniel1234321 said:
Person on WNXX now says no introdiintro next week.

I spoke to a driver I know who was mentioning June or even July, and saying they won't be put through their big exam - so they'll have to just axe trains as and when (first by short forming, then by cancelling). No idea what to believe these days.

petersi · 9 Mar 2019

There nothing wrong with butting project on hold until after the May time table as there is limited resource.
if they are not going to pay for the 313’s to maintained in a serviceable state that just wrong for the fiaire paying passenger

Failed Unit · 9 Mar 2019

petersi said:
There nothing wrong with butting project on hold until after the May time table as there is limited resource.
if they are not going to pay for the 313’s to maintained in a serviceable state that just wrong for the fiaire paying passenger

I am personally still finding the majority of my cancellations are actually due to 700 failures. But agree with your posts.

The current standoff that heavy overhauls of the 313 is bad investment. But they don’t know when they can replace them.

Couple this with the fact that GTRs management contract means if they cancel significant numbers of trains they get unpunished (as we found out in May) looks like we are going to have another bad year. GTR makes lots of money. The passengers shafted again.

jon0844 · 9 Mar 2019

I think they've been 'punished' since last autumn when trains are cancelled or skip stops?

Failed Unit · 9 Mar 2019

jon0844 said:
I think they've been 'punished' since last autumn when trains are cancelled or skip stops?

Really? In what way? As nothing seems to have changed so the punishment wasn’t punitive enough (whatever it was/ is) to change their behaviour. The still skip stops after a 5 minute delay to recover 0 minutes (or lose more time for example)

petersi · 9 Mar 2019

To be fairs if the 313’s are to be withdrawn before the new trains come into service it may not have been GTR call it could be the DFT. it is management contract.

bramling · 9 Mar 2019

petersi said:
To be fairs if the 313’s are to be withdrawn before the new trains come into service it may not have been GTR call it could be the DFT. it is management contract.

One way or other this should have been got right, especially after the summer shambles.

The lateness of the 717s isn’t a problem in itself, but the now chronic unreliability of the 313s is.

Another change programme the industry has screwed up.

petersi · 9 Mar 2019

bramling said:
One way or other this should have been got right, especially after the summer shambles.

The lateness of the 717s isn’t a problem in itself, but the now chronic unreliability of the 313s is.

Another change programme the industry has screwed up.

I totally agree with you

Failed Unit · 9 Mar 2019

bramling said:
One way or other this should have been got right, especially after the summer shambles.

The lateness of the 717s isn’t a problem in itself, but the now chronic unreliability of the 313s is.

Another change programme the industry has screwed up.

Be interesting to know what the issues are. You would hope that GTR specifies a train that must meet x, y and z. But these signal sighting issues are showing up very late in the day considering how long the trains are in the UK for.

I remember last year we had people trying to convince me that the 717 was all GTR (as it was a positive thing). Now that problems are occurring people are trying to distance GTRs involvement. But GTRs track record of introducing new stock isn’t good. Saying that I don’t think and new stock for any TOC has gone well.

jon0844 · 9 Mar 2019

I've heard there's a proposal to have a second man in the cab on the Northern City Line section to satisfy the union and allow the trains to run. Has anyone else heard this?

petersi · 9 Mar 2019

I am not trying to Distance GTR Involvement
From my perspective as a customer this introduction has been a total farce.
Lack of working together of Parties involved GTR and net work rail and may be the unions
From GTR Poor communication to the Paying passengers
And if the 313's to be withdrawn before the new trains its a total disgrace but I do not know if that is GTR or DFT

jon0844 · 9 Mar 2019

The issues are seemingly all down to signal sighting and a lot of work has been done to mitigate the issues (SDO, moving the stop boards etc), but it seems issues still remain. It's hard to attribute blame when I am sure most of us don't know the full circumstances.

At the end of the day, it means 717s aren't in operation and 313s are going to be dropping like flies very soon. I think it's fair to say to expect a lot of 3-car services in the near future.

Failed Unit · 9 Mar 2019

jon0844 said:
The issues are seemingly all down to signal sighting and a lot of work has been done to mitigate the issues (SDO, moving the stop boards etc), but it seems issues still remain. It's hard to attribute blame when I am sure most of us don't know the full circumstances.

At the end of the day, it means 717s aren't in operation and 313s are going to be dropping like flies very soon. I think it's fair to say to expect a lot of 3-car services in the near future.

Could you clarify what this means.

Is it signal sighting and using the DOO that is the problem. Or putting the question in a different way if they had full dispatch at all stations at all times would the issue go away? (Considering many can take 8 coach trains already)

choochoochoo · 9 Mar 2019

Failed Unit said:
Could you clarify what this means.

Is it signal sighting and using the DOO that is the problem. Or putting the question in a different way if they had full dispatch at all stations at all times would the issue go away? (Considering many can take 8 coach trains already)

Interesting to mention full dispatch at stations today. Just noticed that New Southgate is shut today due DOO equipment failure.

Am I being cynical/simplistic in thinking GTR are going to pin the delay and penalties on Network Rail rather than fork out and get a couple of dispatch staff on the platform for the rest of the day ?

jon0844 · 9 Mar 2019

Most trains stopped as normal at New Southgate with degraded dispatch. Staff were on site around 0900.

As I can see every train was booked to skip until shortly before departure and then the stop reinstated.

Now everything is at a stand due to a broken down train where people have detained and shut the ECML completely.

grid56126 · 9 Mar 2019

choochoochoo said:
Interesting to mention full dispatch at stations today. Just noticed that New Southgate is shut today due DOO equipment failure.

Am I being cynical/simplistic in thinking GTR are going to pin the delay and penalties on Network Rail rather than fork out and get a couple of dispatch staff on the platform for the rest of the day ?

There is "usually" a two hour rule that allows drivers to dispatch using degraded working - after that staff are required to attend - if they cannot attend, then trains don't call. Who pays for that has NEVER been a discussion I have had, but chasing staff to site has taken up a good few hours of my past 20 years employment (no longer my concern). What the bean counters do after that is their job, it was never mine and nobody ever approached me to say I needed to change my stance. Safety was and remains the biggest concern in any equipment failure that leads to degraded working.

grid56126 · 9 Mar 2019

Failed Unit said:
Could you clarify what this means.

Is it signal sighting and using the DOO that is the problem. Or putting the question in a different way if they had full dispatch at all stations at all times would the issue go away? (Considering many can take 8 coach trains already)

I have no idea what the issues are in the GN (Although I suspect, if they are what I am thinking they will be mostly / wholly between Drayton Park and Moorgate.

The central seating position on class 700/717s presents two entirely separate but related issues.
Signal sighting: Each driving cab puts the driver in a different position in relation to the length of the train / being able to see the aspect of the signal. A driver in a class 313 is on the left side of the cab a few feet further back than the same driver in the middle of a longer 717 means that signal viewing can be drastically changed. Until you actually put a train there it's nigh on impossible to see exactly what you are up against.

There are restrictions in place at Kings Cross with departure of class 387 units requiring additional staff for this reason.

There are some restrictions still in place for the working of 700s at various locations, some that would surprise you for these reasons.

Adjusting signalling infrastructure is an incredibly expensive exercise and cannot be done overnight without design work, survey work and installation that is way beyond my understanding.

As for dispatch. Any station that requires manual dispatch presents it's own unique issues. Station staff variably dispatch by bat which has to be displayed to the driver either at the cab door or directly in line of sight through the windscreen. The length of stock again plays an important part in how this achieved and this is of course over and above the "RA" methods used elsewhere.

The number of stations that rely on manual dispatch are dropping all the time as the on board cameras of 700s / 717s are used. But that is only when lighting levels are at genuinely acceptable levels 24/7 to allow the cameras to be seen correctly.

Failed Unit · 9 Mar 2019

Thanks. I know Brookmans Park is on of the issues. For those that don’t know the signal is at the end of the platform so the train stops further back for the driver to see it. To be honest if that station was a 4 coach SDO it would work. Just wondering if the dispatch is also compounding so thanks for your reply.

jon0844 · 9 Mar 2019

Failed Unit said:
Thanks. I know Brookmans Park is on of the issues. For those that don’t know the signal is at the end of the platform so the train stops further back for the driver to see it. To be honest if that station was a 4 coach SDO it would work. Just wondering if the dispatch is also compounding so thanks for your reply.

But someone posted above that when set back an OLHE stanchion blocks the view?

It's a shame that Network Rail hadn't got in cab signalling done by now. At one time 2019 was the year of introduction but years on there's still only a small section by Watton at Stone.

717001 · 9 Mar 2019

grid56126 said:
The central seating position on class 700/717s presents two entirely separate but related issues.
Signal sighting: Each driving cab puts the driver in a different position in relation to the length of the train / being able to see the aspect of the signal. A driver in a class 313 is on the left side of the cab a few feet further back than the same driver in the middle of a longer 717 means that signal viewing can be drastically changed. Until you actually put a train there it's nigh on impossible to see exactly what you are up against.

The driver’s position in the 717s is on the left, as the emergency exit step unit occupies the centre.

The current preview services are stopping at Highbury and Islington, where the northbound platform is on the left but not at Essex Road (for example), where it’s on the right.

Most 313 services, certainly in the peak, are made up currently of 2x3 car units so are roughly the same length overall (but agree driving position different).

Have noticed new 717 stop boards at various stations. Let’s hope they are close to resolving the issues!

Failed Unit · 9 Mar 2019

jon0844 said:
But someone posted above that when set back an OLHE stanchion blocks the view?

It's a shame that Network Rail hadn't got in cab signalling done by now. At one time 2019 was the year of introduction but years on there's still only a small section by Watton at Stone.

As I said earlier on in the thread. Don’t stop there.

But that is what is confusing me.

1.
Problem- can’t see the signal in the normal position
Solution- stop further back where you can.

2.
Problem- rear of train is off platform.
Solution - use SDO

That is what I am struggling to get my head around. Even with 1&2 are signal sightings still a problem. Reading various posts I am coming to the conclusion yes. But didn’t want to make 1+1 = 3.

I hope that GTR were not stupid enough to specify the trains based on uncommitted and unfunded resignalling schemes. That always ends in tears. (As are electrification schemes or fairly much anything that DFT funds)

LK717 · 9 Mar 2019

grid56126 said:
I have no idea what the issues are in the GN (Although I suspect, if they are what I am thinking they will be mostly / wholly between Drayton Park and Moorgate.

The central seating position on class 700/717s presents two entirely separate but related issues.
Signal sighting: Each driving cab puts the driver in a different position in relation to the length of the train / being able to see the aspect of the signal. A driver in a class 313 is on the left side of the cab a few feet further back than the same driver in the middle of a longer 717 means that signal viewing can be drastically changed. Until you actually put a train there it's nigh on impossible to see exactly what you are up against.

There are restrictions in place at Kings Cross with departure of class 387 units requiring additional staff for this reason.

There are some restrictions still in place for the working of 700s at various locations, some that would surprise you for these reasons.

Adjusting signalling infrastructure is an incredibly expensive exercise and cannot be done overnight without design work, survey work and installation that is way beyond my understanding.

As for dispatch. Any station that requires manual dispatch presents it's own unique issues. Station staff variably dispatch by bat which has to be displayed to the driver either at the cab door or directly in line of sight through the windscreen. The length of stock again plays an important part in how this achieved and this is of course over and above the "RA" methods used elsewhere.

The number of stations that rely on manual dispatch are dropping all the time as the on board cameras of 700s / 717s are used. But that is only when lighting levels are at genuinely acceptable levels 24/7 to allow the cameras to be seen correctly.

717 isn’t central seating

clockend · 9 Mar 2019

Daily Mail (yes I know) says blind spot exists at front of train preventing driver seeing pax attempting to join train when platform is on rhs. Seatin position further back than 313s because of crumple zone...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ain-cab-drivers-window-passengers-danger.html

GusB · 10 Mar 2019

Was that really the best image the DM could come up with to represent someone waving a baton?

Failed Unit · 10 Mar 2019

Mr Shapps, MP for Welwyn, said: 'While we suffer from the oldest, least reliable trains on Britain's rail network, millions of pounds of new trains sit gathering dust in the railway sidings. What started out as a few days, then weeks, of delay has turned into a national disgrace.'

Oldest maybe. Least reliable? Seems Mr Shapps doesnt use any of the latest generation of trains such as the class 700 then.....

Hindsight is wonderful but why didn’t they build a prototype or at least start testing them earlier. At least the 385s had production halted. (Although it was a bigger run)

grid56126 · 10 Mar 2019

LK717 said:
717 isn’t central seating

Point taken, but I think the rest of what I posted is reasonably correct with regard why the problems exist. Or am I wrong?

petersi · 10 Mar 2019

grid56126 said:
Point taken, but I think the rest of what I posted is reasonably correct with regard why the problems exist. Or am I wrong?

Earlier in this thread a people have claimed that network rail can not make any changes to the signalling on the NCL.

Despite the daily Mail claims that it willl be resignalled in 2 years that is unlikely due to the delay of Kings Cross remodelling etc

jon0844 · 10 Mar 2019

petersi said:
Earlier in this thread a people have claimed that network rail can not make any changes to the signalling on the NCL.

Despite the daily Mail claims that it willl be resignalled in 2 years that is unlikely due to the delay of Kings Cross remodelling etc

I cannot imagine the signalling being done in that timeframe, especially the TfL owned Northern City Line bit, which is where the key problems are. And, ironically, Grant Shapps' home station.

jellybaby · 10 Mar 2019

jon0844 said:
TfL owned Northern City Line

Is it TfL owned? They have already said not when it comes to thinks like installing WiFi on the platforms.

GN Class 717

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