Nottingham 'Bus War'

43055 · 1 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
And when I have travelled towards Derby around 3pm the buses are still very busy so guess they must be packed heading into Derby in the mornings. I also find the Ripley Belper section busy when I've used it. Be interesting to see if the 20minute frequency over the section is warranted. As they are proposing running the 6.1-5 each hourly(5 departures) presumably the 6th departure will be working a Derby-Belper Town Centre only every hour?

The times that i have used the sixes to Matlock and Ripley have been well used. It would look like it will be a short one to Belper every hour. I think the departures from Derby would look something like this:
00 - 6.2
10 - 6.5
20 - 6.4
30 - 6.1 short to Belper
40 - 6.3
50 - 6.1 to Bakewell
This will give a 30 min service between the 6.3 and 6.5 round Belper and have the 20 min service to Ripley and have minimal changes to the 6.1 to Matlock.

RailUK Forums

Mugby · 1 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Trent Barton are proposing changes to the Sixes from May including the withdrawal of the 6.X and frequency enhancements.
Info on the news section of their website here: https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/userfiles/sixesmap3.19.pdf

Pity about the loss of the 6X but from my observations it did seem to be the weakest link of the sixes.

ACBest · 3 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Already mentioned in post #3419.

Marshalls of Sutton on Trent are reducing the Sunday 90 from 31st March. It goes from 6 journeys to 4 with 3 continuing to Fernwood. Nottm dep: 0940, 1140(Newark only), 1440 & 1640. Newark dep: 0850, 1050, 1350(not from Fernwood) & 1550. So the later service is withdrawn and presumably with the 90minute lunch layover in Newark now requires only one driver. A consequence of the new hourly Sunday train service?

I’m restricted on how much I can say on this subject, but the short answer is yes!

43055 · 3 Mar 2019

Arriva in Derby are offering contact less payments from today according to the Derby Telegraph website. At the end of the article it says they will be using Ticketer machines.

ThatOneGuy · 6 Mar 2019

Yourbus have registered a cancellation of their 822 service, currently run under contract for NCC (effective 9th June). Perhaps this is where the counties electric vehicles will be going?

Andyh82 · 9 Mar 2019

I’m catching up with Trent Barton news, as I haven’t visited the area for about a year. Why is the V3 in Derby no longer part of the Villager brand?

Mwanesh · 9 Mar 2019

Yourbus giving up Alvaston was to be expected.They keep picking up fight all over the place .Some places do have loyal passengers .If you have no network in the larger town you will be on a looser.Knowing Yourbus they will look somewhere to make a nuisance

satisnek · 10 Mar 2019

Andyh82 said:
I’m catching up with Trent Barton news, as I haven’t visited the area for about a year. Why is the V3 in Derby no longer part of the Villager brand?

I was informed in another thread of tentative plans to merge the Harlequin and the V3. Also, I've noticed that the vehicles on the V1 route (still branded Villager) now state 'every 30 minutes', which clearly makes them unsuitable for the hourly V3.

There was an article in the Mercia Marina newsletter last month, which may be of interest here:

At a recent meeting with representatives from Trent Barton, and with several regular bus users from Mercia present, issues were raised and discussed about the suitability (or unsuitability!) of the new buses now being used on this route.

Trent Barton explained the yellow buses had to be taken off because of their age and the ‘Solo’ vehicles put in as replacements. The main concerns aired were about accessibility – including difficulties for those with a mobility scooter or walking aid and the steps half way up the aisle – plus significantly reduced storage area for shopping and trolleys at the front of the bus. These issues were recognised as being major issues for a route which services predominantly rural communities with an older age group.

Internal discussions have continued with Trent Barton over the last few weeks. The following email was received from Trent Barton just before New Year: “We have fed back our early days’ analysis of the V3 route to the management team and we are still building an analysis of customer numbers for the service. We will be making arrangements to provide a vehicle for customers with mobility scooters to practice as promised. It is still very early days in the changes to the V3 and the brand is going from strength to strength and I am hopeful this trend will continue. The Solo SR vehicles will remain in place but we will be watching very closely to ensure that customers needs are being catered for. I hope we can keep a close working relationship.”

Personally I think that the Solos are quite cosy, although they don't have any luxuries like a passenger information system, wi-fi or USB charging points, which the old buses had. But I do agree about the lack of luggage/shopping accommodation, having made use of this in the past. As for "steps half way up the aisle", haven't all buses got these (albeit more than halfway on larger ones)?

43055 · 10 Mar 2019

satisnek said:
I was informed in another thread of tentative plans to merge the Harlequin and the V3. Also, I've noticed that the vehicles on the V1 route (still branded Villager) now state 'every 30 minutes', which clearly makes them unsuitable for the hourly V3.

There was an article in the Mercia Marina newsletter last month, which may be of interest here:

Personally I think that the Solos are quite cosy, although they don't have any luxuries like a passenger information system, wi-fi or USB charging points, which the old buses had. But I do agree about the lack of luggage/shopping accommodation, having made use of this in the past. As for "steps half way up the aisle", haven't all buses got these (albeit more than halfway on larger ones)?

The solo SR's do have wifi which the portal is called 'villager - free wifi' which is the same as the wifi on the old V1 now villager.

In regards to the V3 and Harlequin I did have a look to see if it was possible to link the two routes and it is just possible to run a even 15 min service to Littleover and Heatherton and then hourly to Burton but you will only have 2 mins at the Bus Station if you wanted the same amount of buses as there is at the moment. I guess we will have to wait and see if anything happens.

Mitch in Notts · 11 Mar 2019

Ct4n have announced the commercial registration of the L22/L23 as the 22 & 23 from the 29th April 2019 with the current timetable, but with the introduction of fares on the route: http://www.ct4n.co.uk/sitedata/Root/file/CT4N Press Release 22 23.pdf

Andyh82 · 11 Mar 2019

Regarding Trent Barton’s E200MMCs, why are they numbered in different ranges, and some of the first batch was fairly recently renumbered into a different range, with the most recent batch taking the old numbers? Are they all different lengths or specs?

MCR247 · 11 Mar 2019

The i4 ones are different to the rest if I believe, having a larger engine and therefore a slightly longer length which I believe is the 'rear overhang;

EnviroExplorer · 12 Mar 2019

MCR247 said:
The i4 ones are different to the rest if I believe, having a larger engine and therefore a slightly longer length which I believe is the 'rear overhang;

In fact most of the batches are different!
The Nines ones are Allison gearboxes and of the middle sized length
The Allestree ones are same length as the Nines, but with Voith gearboxes
The Mainlines, Skylinks, and i4s are all longer length versions with 6 cylinder engines and Voiths
The Mickleovers and Indigos are the same length as the above, but have 4 cylinder engines.

WillPS · 13 Mar 2019

Looks like NCT are scouting for buyers for their Omnidekkas already:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156441449634671&set=p.10156441449634671&type=3&theater

Mitch in Notts · 25 Mar 2019

Trent Barton are withdrawing the 25 Ilkeston to Kirk Hallam local service from the end of May as 'uncommercial' This will leave the Kirk Hallam Estate with just the 21 every hour (and the Ilkeston Flyer & Y3 for those walking up to the main road).
Prior to changes the other year the 23 ran every 30mins round the estates to Ilkeston & Heanor with an additional bus to double the estate service from 930-3pm. The extra bus was used to enhance the 21 at peak times. So during the main shopping times there were 5 buses from the Kirk hallam Estate to Ilkeston an hour(4 x 23 & 1 x 21). From May there will just be 1 (the 21) - hell of a loss of trade in a relatively short time.

43055 · 25 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Trent Barton are withdrawing the 25 Ilkeston to Kirk Hallam local service from the end of May as 'uncommercial' This will leave the Kirk Hallam Estate with just the 21 every hour (and the Ilkeston Flyer & Y3 for those walking up to the main road).
Prior to changes the other year the 23 ran every 30mins round the estates to Ilkeston & Heanor with an additional bus to double the estate service from 930-3pm. The extra bus was used to enhance the 21 at peak times. So during the main shopping times there were 5 buses from the Kirk hallam Estate to Ilkeston an hour(4 x 23 & 1 x 21). From May there will just be 1 (the 21) - hell of a loss of trade in a relatively short time.

That certainly is a big decrease in buses. I don't know that area to well but do many people use the bus round Kirk Hallam? The last time I got the Ilkeston flyer from Derby I was the only person onboard until Ilkeston and this was back when it was every 20 mins, I haven't used the 21 or the 25 myself which is why I am asking.

Mitch in Notts · 25 Mar 2019

43055 said:
That certainly is a big decrease in buses. I don't know that area to well but do many people use the bus round Kirk Hallam? The last time I got the Ilkeston flyer from Derby I was the only person onboard until Ilkeston and this was back when it was every 20 mins, I haven't used the 21 or the 25 myself which is why I am asking.

It is a big housing area to only have an hourly service. I think part of the problem for the 25 was it only took passengers to the market place and didn't continue to Waterside for M&S, the Station or Tesco which it could have done with, but that would require a second vehicle for a 30minute frequency. I would have also run it via Cavendish Road & Nottingham Road to pass Morrisons. Seems to be a lack of interest by Trent in the 21/5/7 services and I do wonder how much longer Trent will continue to operate the 27.....

43055 · 27 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
It is a big housing area to only have an hourly service. I think part of the problem for the 25 was it only took passengers to the market place and didn't continue to Waterside for M&S, the Station or Tesco which it could have done with, but that would require a second vehicle for a 30minute frequency. I would have also run it via Cavendish Road & Nottingham Road to pass Morrisons. Seems to be a lack of interest by Trent in the 21/5/7 services and I do wonder how much longer Trent will continue to operate the 27.....

Yeah it did seem a bit odd doing the same as the 21 almost and 1 per hour is a bit low I would seven say. Could you tag the route onto the end of the 27 and do something similar to the 20 on Sundays?

There is talk going around of the sevens moveing to Notts and Derby as well possibly from the same date?

Mitch in Notts · 27 Mar 2019

Trent have also announced the withdrawl of the 7.1 & 7.2 from the end of May. They will pass to Notts & Derby. Considering N&Ds track record of keeping former Trentbarton routes going they won't last five minutes with them no doubt (the former Barton 7, Felix 12, Trent 555, Zoom, Borrowash Flyer etc all spring to mind).

Ct4n are introducing route 33:
Nottingham-W Bridgford-Tollerton-Cotgrave-C Butler-C Bishop every hour replacing the 822. A connection at C Bishop for villages on to Bingham will be provided by a tender numbered 833. http://www.ct4n.co.uk/sitedata/Root/file/CT4N 33 Press Release v2.pdf

ThatOneGuy · 28 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Ct4n are introducing route 33:
Nottingham-W Bridgford-Tollerton-Cotgrave-C Butler-C Bishop every hour replacing the 822. A connection at C Bishop for villages on to Bingham will be provided by a tender numbered 833. http://www.ct4n.co.uk/sitedata/Root/file/CT4N 33 Press Release v2.pdf

Interesting to see how that 33 fares, the timetable looks incredibly tight, the slightest incident anywhere and I can't see any scope of recovery without losing journeys.

Pigalle · 28 Mar 2019

goldisgood said:
Trent Barton's electric buses will be for Derby. It seems that they are likely to be some of the Enviro 200 EVs like the one which TB trialled.
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/electricbuses2019

I’ve been told today that these are for the Mickleover.

Mitch in Notts · 28 Mar 2019

ThatOneGuy said:
Interesting to see how that 33 fares, the timetable looks incredibly tight, the slightest incident anywhere and I can't see any scope of recovery without losing journeys.

Daytime looks fine but no extra allowance built in for morning rush hour so the 0843 arrival into Nottingham certainly isn't going to make an 0845 departure. 0813 arrival might still make the 0850 ex Cropwell Bishop if it isn't too late into Nottingham...... Evenings well who knows!

Mugby · 29 Mar 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
Trent have also announced the withdrawl of the 7.1 & 7.2 from the end of May. They will pass to Notts & Derby. Considering N&Ds track record of keeping former Trentbarton routes going they won't last five minutes with them no doubt (the former Barton 7, Felix 12, Trent 555, Zoom, Borrowash Flyer etc all spring to mind).

And presumably Zig-zag tickets won't be accepted because "it's a different company"

ChrisC · 29 Mar 2019

Mugby said:
And presumably Zig-zag tickets won't be accepted because "it's a different company"

That’s always the problem when a bus route is given up by a major operator in an area and replaced by a smaller company. Those who have to pay for their bus travel see big increases in fares for journeys involving more than one operator. That’s the advantage of those local authorities who have negotiated with the bus companies to provide multi operator tickets. Unfortunately the Derbyshire Wayfarer at £13 is very expensive, probably as a result of it also being valid on trains. Perhaps a cheaper bus only ticket in Derbyshire is needed. I’ve just returned from a few days away in Colchester and I found the £10 Essex Saver Ticket fantastic as it is valid on all buses in Essex. I wish we had something like that in Nottinghamshire.

Deerfold · 29 Mar 2019

ChrisC said:
That’s always the problem when a bus route is given up by a major operator in an area and replaced by a smaller company. Those who have to pay for their bus travel see big increases in fares for journeys involving more than one operator. That’s the advantage of those local authorities who have negotiated with the bus companies to provide multi operator tickets. Unfortunately the Derbyshire Wayfarer at £13 is very expensive, probably as a result of it also being valid on trains. Perhaps a cheaper bus only ticket in Derbyshire is needed. I’ve just returned from a few days away in Colchester and I found the £10 Essex Saver Ticket fantastic as it is valid on all buses in Essex. I wish we had something like that in Nottinghamshire.

It's not a smaller company though, just another part of Wellglade - they just choose not to accept TB tickets.

edwin_m · 29 Mar 2019

Deerfold said:
It's not a smaller company though, just another part of Wellglade - they just choose not to accept TB tickets.

It is a different company, and therefore it probably falls foul of the Competition Commission ruling that operators can't co-operate on tickets unless all operators in the area have the opportunity to participate.

Pigalle · 29 Mar 2019

edwin_m said:
It is a different company, and therefore it probably falls foul of the Competition Commission ruling that operators can't co-operate on tickets unless all operators in the area have the opportunity to participate.

That doesn’t seem right as both Zig Zag Plus and the network Saver ticket work across all of trentbartonland (pronto excepted) and the Kinchbus network.

edwin_m · 29 Mar 2019

Pigalle said:
That doesn’t seem right as both Zig Zag Plus and the network Saver ticket work across all of trentbartonland (pronto excepted) and the Kinchbus network.

How long has that been so? I think existing agreements were allowed to continue, which is possibly why the Easyrider Anytime was never valid on trams when NCT was part of the consortium, but the green Easyrider was.

Deerfold · 29 Mar 2019

edwin_m said:
It is a different company, and therefore it probably falls foul of the Competition Commission ruling that operators can't co-operate on tickets unless all operators in the area have the opportunity to participate.

That seems unlikely. Burnley and Pendle accept Keighley and District tickets within the same area (and on a section only they run on).

First Manchester and First West Yorkshire have some shared ticket availability too.

Arriva sell tickets that are accepted by different subsidiary companies.

edwin_m · 29 Mar 2019

Deerfold said:
That seems unlikely. Burnley and Pendle accept Keighley and District tickets within the same area (and on a section only they run on).

First Manchester and First West Yorkshire have some shared ticket availability too.

Arriva sell tickets that are accepted by different subsidiary companies.

I've found what I think is the definitive text: https://webarchive.nationalarchives...iry/ref2010/localbus/pdf/00_sections_1_15.pdf

15.43 A new entrant should be able to join an existing MTC [multi-operator travelcard] scheme and sell the scheme’s tickets upon commencing supply of local bus services, provided it abides by the terms and rules of the scheme, and should be reimbursed for the multi-operator ticket passengers it carries according to the revenue reimbursement principles of the scheme.

I don't think there is an equivalent provision for single-journey tickets. But I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to wade through the whole 526 pages plus appendices, so there may be some other relevant stuff out there or even elsewhere.

Nottingham 'Bus War'

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