Non accessible 'low floor' buses and wheelchair users

175mph · 8 Mar 2019

Back when there was still 'low floor' buses running that weren't compliant with accessibility laws due to the space for a pushchair, although could theoretically accommodate a wheelchair, not having the correct layout or the 'ironing board' rest, has anyone here ever seen a bus driver turn a wheelchair user away and explain that the space for a pushchair cannot be used for a wheelchair when the wheelchair user argues that the bus is low floor?

On the other hand, has anyone here seen on a non accessibility compliant 'low floor' bus a wheelchair using the pushchair space, even though I'm guessing it would have been strictly speaking against the law if not the bus companie's rules as well?

Also, am I right in guessing that using the pushchair space as a wheelchair space on a non accessibility compliant 'low floor' bus would have been breaking the law?

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Deerfold · 8 Mar 2019

175mph said:
Back when there was still 'low floor' buses running that weren't compliant with accessibility laws due to the space for a pushchair, although could theoretically accommodate a wheelchair, not having the correct layout or the 'ironing board' rest, has anyone here ever seen a bus driver turn a wheelchair user away and explain that the space for a pushchair cannot be used for a wheelchair when the wheelchair user argues that the bus is low floor?

On the other hand, has anyone here seen on a non accessibility compliant 'low floor' bus a wheelchair using the pushchair space, even though I'm guessing it would have been strictly speaking against the law if not the bus companie's rules as well?

Also, am I right in guessing that using the pushchair space as a wheelchair space on a non accessibility compliant 'low floor' bus would have been breaking the law?

I've seen a bus which unofficially fitted in 3 wheelchairs. It did have a wheelchair space and a pushchair space and a bit of a squeeze in the aisle. It would have been an hour until the next bus on the route.

175mph · 8 Mar 2019

Deerfold said:
I've seen a bus which unofficially fitted in 3 wheelchairs. It did have a wheelchair space and a pushchair space and a bit of a squeeze in the aisle. It would have been an hour until the next bus on the route.

If an inspector had boarded, would the driver have been expecting his or her P45?

Deerfold · 8 Mar 2019

175mph said:
If an inspector had boarded, would the driver have been expecting his or her P45?

I'm not sure. That's why I gave no indication of when or where this was! Although a little crowded, I think it was probably the prefered option for all three wheelchair users! (It was a surprise - although I've seen people in wheelchairs on that service before, most journeys do not carry any wheelchair users).

quarella · 9 Mar 2019

175mph said:
If an inspector had boarded, would the driver have been expecting his or her P45?

While trying to do the right thing if this was in excess of the stated capacity of the bus then they put their PCV licence at risk and their employer's Operator's licence, along with the repute of the named Transport Manager. I would have thought it unlikely the full weight of the traffic commissioner would be applied but should it be known about there would most likely be a hearing with possibly some conditions applied to the 'O'licence.
It is not always clear even if stated. The Stagecoach Traws Cymru I caught a few weeks ago stated 42 seated 37 standing or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair. Does that mean that if a wheelchair boards no standing passengers are allowed?

richw · 9 Mar 2019

175mph said:
If an inspector had boarded, would the driver have been expecting his or her P45?

It’s unsafe as there is only one position where the wheelchair can be parked with the relevant bars to help keep in place. There’s also compliance issues as the bus isn’t certified for that many. No way would I take more than the plated number of wheelchairs under any circumstances

Swanny200 · 9 Mar 2019

There was a whole debacle a few years ago when Lothian Buses would be very strict on one wheeled vehicle on the bus only, so even if someone got on with a folding walker, if they got to a stop and a wheelchair user was wanting on, if the person with a walker refused to fold it up then the bus would leave the wheelchair user on the street, it was the same with pushchairs as the drivers felt it easier not to argue with the passengers that were already on board. There were many a time when my father was left on Princes Street in his wheelchair because bus drivers told him they couldn't take him.

TheSel · 9 Mar 2019

quarella said:
While trying to do the right thing if this was in excess of the stated capacity of the bus then they put their PCV licence at risk and their employer's Operator's licence, along with the repute of the named Transport Manager. I would have thought it unlikely the full weight of the traffic commissioner would be applied but should it be known about there would most likely be a hearing with possibly some conditions applied to the 'O'licence.
It is not always clear even if stated. The Stagecoach Traws Cymru I caught a few weeks ago stated 42 seated 37 standing or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair. Does that mean that if a wheelchair boards no standing passengers are allowed?

This has always interested me, too. Suppose you're the driver of a such a service, and you're carrying 42 seated passengers, and a few standing. You get to the next stop and there's two people waiting - one in a wheelchair, and one with no visible mobility problem. Do you:

a) pick them both up?
b) pick neither up?
c) pick only one up - and if so, which?

Is the answer different if this is the last service of the day - or at least, the last one for some considerable time (say > 1 hour)?

richw · 9 Mar 2019

TheSel said:
Suppose you're the driver of a such a service, and you're carrying 42 seated passengers, and a few standing.

If you’ve got 42 seated, 3 are seated on the tip up seats in the wheelchair space. They would have to stand to get the wheelchair on. I am sure most passengers would do so.

Your scenario if there is capacity for a standee but not a wheelchair, you can pick the standee but not the wheelchair from a bus capacity issue. I’d radio control to make them aware on an infrequent route, even if last service of the day I’m not risking my licence or job by overloading,

TheSel · 10 Mar 2019

richw said:
If you’ve got 42 seated, 3 are seated on the tip up seats in the wheelchair space. They would have to stand to get the wheelchair on. I am sure most passengers would do so.

Your scenario if there is capacity for a standee but not a wheelchair, you can pick the standee but not the wheelchair from a bus capacity issue. I’d radio control to make them aware on an infrequent route, even if last service of the day I’m not risking my licence or job by overloading,

Thanks @richw - but isn't that the problem? Yes, I can invite those passengers presently seated on the tip-up seats to stand, in order to accommodate the wheelchair. But in post #5 above, @quarella talked about a vehicle licensed for " ... 42 seated 37 standing or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair." - and posed the question: "Does that mean that if a wheelchair boards no standing passengers are allowed?"

Asking people sitting on tip-up seats to stand is a far different scenario from asking them to alight - or finding that having stood to accommodate the wheelchair, now I cannot legitimately continue the journey.

Or am I reading too much into this?

Fawkes Cat · 12 Mar 2019

quarella said:
It is not always clear even if stated. The Stagecoach Traws Cymru I caught a few weeks ago stated 42 seated 37 standing or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair. Does that mean that if a wheelchair boards no standing passengers are allowed?

- I know nothing about bus law, but this strikes me as an obvious typo (or whatever the term is for not quite saying what you mean in a notice on a bus). There's no way that one wheelchair will use the same space as 37 standees (although as mentioned upthread 3 people on fold down seats might have to move).

Bletchleyite · 12 Mar 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
- I know nothing about bus law, but this strikes me as an obvious typo (or whatever the term is for not quite saying what you mean in a notice on a bus). There's no way that one wheelchair will use the same space as 37 standees (although as mentioned upthread 3 people on fold down seats might have to move).

That's clearly either a typo or just badly worded. The second part could be considered a modifier of the first - a common arrangement is that there are 3 tip-up seats in the wheelchair bay which can't be used if a wheelchair user is there.

So what it *means* is:
42 seated, or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair
37 standing

Or potentially if there are no tip up seats:
42 seated
39 standing, or 37 standing + 1 wheelchair

...but I'm pretty sure it means the former, as 3 is a more usual number for a wheelchair user.

FWIW the standing figure on most buses these days, particularly single-deckers, is *well* in excess of the number who will actually board before either the driver or the next passenger considers it too packed, so it rarely comes into actual question.

richw · 12 Mar 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
- I know nothing about bus law, but this strikes me as an obvious typo (or whatever the term is for not quite saying what you mean in a notice on a bus). There's no way that one wheelchair will use the same space as 37 standees (although as mentioned upthread 3 people on fold down seats might have to move).

Bletchleyite said:
That's clearly either a typo or just badly worded. The second part could be considered a modifier of the first - a common arrangement is that there are 3 tip-up seats in the wheelchair bay which can't be used if a wheelchair user is there.

So what it *means* is:
42 seated, or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair
37 standing

Or potentially if there are no tip up seats:
42 seated
39 standing, or 37 standing + 1 wheelchair

...but I'm pretty sure it means the former, as 3 is a more usual number for a wheelchair user.

FWIW the standing figure on most buses these days, particularly single-deckers, is *well* in excess of the number who will actually board before either the driver or the next passenger considers it too packed, so it rarely comes into actual question.

The standing capacity is a theory based on maximum permitted weight of the vehicle, not how many actually fit. So it is possible that the standing area on that particular vehicle is the wheelchair area only.
For theory side of things, A wheelchair including user is taken as 300kg, 15 passengers as a 1000kg, 45 bags as 1000kg, 100 litres of fuel as 100kg is the weights that a driver should use for calculations.

The small Enviro 200mmcs in Cornwall are plated for 29 seated, and 46 standing. I’ve had 12 standing on and there wasn’t much room left!

Bletchleyite · 12 Mar 2019

100 litres of diesel at 100kg? 1l of water weighs 1kg, and diesel is a lot denser!

Edit: actually, it's not - 850g - I'm amazed!

richw · 12 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
100 litres of diesel at 100kg? 1l of water weighs 1kg, and diesel is a lot denser!

Edit: actually, it's not - 850g - I'm amazed!

That’s what the dvsa say for hgv and PSV theory and cpc training, so it works for me.

cool110 · 12 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
100 litres of diesel at 100kg? 1l of water weighs 1kg, and diesel is a lot denser!

Edit: actually, it's not - 850g - I'm amazed!

Think about it. Oil spills at sea are such a big issue because it floats, which means it has to be less dense.

philthetube · 13 Mar 2019

richw said:
The standing capacity is a theory based on maximum permitted weight of the vehicle, not how many actually fit. So it is possible that the standing area on that particular vehicle is the wheelchair area only.
For theory side of things, A wheelchair including user is taken as 300kg, 15 passengers as a 1000kg, 45 bags as 1000kg, 100 litres of fuel as 100kg is the weights that a driver should use for calculations.

The small Enviro 200mmcs in Cornwall are plated for 29 seated, and 46 standing. I’ve had 12 standing on and there wasn’t much room left!

Not the drivers job to calculate this.

I have never seen a driver count number of passengers standing.

richw · 13 Mar 2019

philthetube said:
Not the drivers job to calculate this.

Umm yes it most definitely is my job to know my vehicle isn’t overweight! If my vehicle is overweight I’m personally liable to prosecution!

quarella · 13 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's clearly either a typo or just badly worded. The second part could be considered a modifier of the first - a common arrangement is that there are 3 tip-up seats in the wheelchair bay which can't be used if a wheelchair user is there.

So what it *means* is:
42 seated, or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair
37 standing

Or potentially if there are no tip up seats:
42 seated
39 standing, or 37 standing + 1 wheelchair

...but I'm pretty sure it means the former, as 3 is a more usual number for a wheelchair user.

FWIW the standing figure on most buses these days, particularly single-deckers, is *well* in excess of the number who will actually board before either the driver or the next passenger considers it too packed, so it rarely comes into actual question.

It is a legal requirement to display the carrying capacity and should not be open to interpretation.
On the day I estimated about 25 standing passengers could be accommodated but if we follow what is legally stated NO standing passengers would be permitted on that vehicle if there was a passenger in a wheelchair.

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2019

quarella said:
It is a legal requirement to display the carrying capacity and should not be open to interpretation.
On the day I estimated about 25 standing passengers could be accommodated but if we follow what is legally stated NO standing passengers would be permitted on that vehicle if there was a passenger in a wheelchair.

Did you report it as a vehicle defect? As that's basically what it seems to be.

quarella · 13 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Did you report it as a vehicle defect? As that's basically what it seems to be.

It isn't a defect. The notice is perfectly clear. It doesn't say what you think it should but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2019

quarella said:
It isn't a defect. The notice is perfectly clear. It doesn't say what you think it should but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

Knowing modern buses it almost certainly is wrong. You could argue that it's not yours to question, but I certainly would at least ask if it's correct so if it isn't it could be fixed so the law was not broken or passengers inconvenienced unnecessarily[1].

I have never seen any modern bus on which the presence of a wheelchair reduced the standee count from 30-odd to zero. There is no logic for this. The reduction is typically 3 to 5 or thereabouts, depending on seating and weight.

[1] If the effect was to incorrectly refuse a wheelchair user because one standee was on board, that would in my view potentially be a legal issue of discrimination by failing to correct the notice.

richw · 13 Mar 2019

If the vehicle is plated for a capacity, that is the capacity. Checking the plate isn’t part of First use checks each day.

My current vehicle interestingly the wheelchair space is solely that. No tip up seats and technically a no standing area looking at the vehicle plate.
No ambiguity on this vehicle.

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2019

richw said:
If the vehicle is plated for a capacity, that is the capacity. Checking the plate isn’t part of First use checks each day.

That is a very "work to rule" attitude and in my view is totally the wrong one. Clearly you must comply with what is plated, but if what is plated makes no sense...

If you notice something that may be wrong, it makes sense to report it, regardless of whether it is technically part of your precise job role or not.

On the one you picture, it appears that the wheelchair user is in addition to the other users.

Deerfold · 13 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That is a very "work to rule" attitude and in my view is totally the wrong one. Clearly you must comply with what is plated, but if what is plated makes no sense...

If you notice something that may be wrong, it makes sense to report it, regardless of whether it is technically part of your precise job role or not.

On the one you picture, it appears that the wheelchair user is in addition to the other users.

Quite. I have various safety responsibilities at work. However, if I see something that I think is wrong, but not within the scope of my job, I'd bring it to the attention of whoever's responsibility it was.

richw · 13 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That is a very "work to rule" attitude and in my view is totally the wrong one. Clearly you must comply with what is plated, but if what is plated makes no sense...

It’s working to the law. When my licence is at risk and I’m personally liable for fines for breaching it, I’m working to rule. No ifs no buts even if the plate is clearly wrong. The vehicle is plated by the manufacturer not the operator. My supervisors can’t change the manufacturer plate in the 12 mins allocated for vehicle checks.

Deerfold · 13 Mar 2019

richw said:
It’s working to the law. When my licence is at risk and I’m personally liable for fines for breaching it, I’m working to rule. No ifs no buts even if the plate is clearly wrong. The vehicle is plated by the manufacturer not the operator. My supervisors can’t change the manufacturer plate in the 12 mins allocated for vehicle checks.

I don't think anyone was suggesting they could change it rapidly or that you should ignore the plate. @Bletchleyite even made it clear that you should comply with the plate.

The suggestion was that you report the plate so that it may be changed in the long term, if appropriate.

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2019

richw said:
It’s working to the law. When my licence is at risk and I’m personally liable for fines for breaching it, I’m working to rule. No ifs no buts even if the plate is clearly wrong. The vehicle is plated by the manufacturer not the operator. My supervisors can’t change the manufacturer plate in the 12 mins allocated for vehicle checks.

No, but you can comply with the law while you are out with the vehicle, then report it when you return it (e.g. by writing it in the defect book).

No modern bus has a rule of "one wheelchair = no standees" - none. It is very obviously wrong.

It might be that your employer then takes no action, but at least you've done your bit.

TUC · 13 Mar 2019

quarella said:
While trying to do the right thing if this was in excess of the stated capacity of the bus then they put their PCV licence at risk and their employer's Operator's licence, along with the repute of the named Transport Manager. I would have thought it unlikely the full weight of the traffic commissioner would be applied but should it be known about there would most likely be a hearing with possibly some conditions applied to the 'O'licence.
It is not always clear even if stated. The Stagecoach Traws Cymru I caught a few weeks ago stated 42 seated 37 standing or 39 seated + 1 wheelchair. Does that mean that if a wheelchair boards no standing passengers are allowed?

How do couples who both use wheelchairs (I knew a couple both in their 20s in this position) then travel anywhere together?

richw · 13 Mar 2019

TUC said:
How do couples who both use wheelchairs (I knew a couple both in their 20s in this position) then travel anywhere together?

They can’t on most buses unless one can exit and fold their chair.

Non accessible 'low floor' buses and wheelchair users

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