Are Heritage railways trying to have it both ways ?

Some posts here remind us of how things were in the past - hopefully less so now - many of them of a horrific nature to present day thinking.
I am sure many other long serving volunteers have similar stories to relate, but while we know them it should be remembered that so does the ORR. Times are a' changin! Heritage lines must strive for professionalism, the days "of playing with trains" must be consigned to history.

Llanigraham said:

It is interesting to look at other fields where there have been changes where volunteers are involved.

I act as a Stage Rally Safety Officer. 10 years ago we allowed spectators free range in the forests to stand where they liked, then following several major incidents, including fatalities, we now have to construct pens for spectators, man all Rights of Way crossings and specify the EXACT numbers of marshals needed at a specific point, but still we get the "I've been spectating for 30 years, I know what I'm doing!!" as they sit in the run-off area of a right angle bend at the end of a long straight! Personally I have been assaulted for insisting that someone move form that sort of position.

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Maybe such people might like to Google 'Jim Clark Rally 2014'.

Llanigraham said:

Visitors to the railway I volunteer on do not get a tour of the engine shed, but they are allowed into a small seated viewing area in the front doors to have a talk and to see what we do. They do get a supervised walk through the Carriage Shed, but because that also has an area that is used for construction work we volunteers have to ensure that when we are working there we have to keep the walkway totally clear, and if we are working when they are brought through that we generally stop work, especially if using things like saws or drills.

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For those who want to see what's happening in loco and carriage sheds (and I quite understand why they do), I think the way forward is mezzanine viewing platforms, so people can have a view across what's there, but accessed via a safe walkway. I realise that this might create potential issues with disabled access legislation, but would someone with a disability that would prevent them from accessing a mezzanine viewing area be able to access a loco or carriage shed anyway? If not then I guess one could argue that a mezzanine to view same would not be considered discriminatory?

HaggisBotherer said:

For those who want to see what's happening in loco and carriage sheds (and I quite understand why they do), I think the way forward is mezzanine viewing platforms, so people can have a view across what's there, but accessed via a safe walkway. I realise that this might create potential issues with disabled access legislation, but would someone with a disability that would prevent them from accessing a mezzanine viewing area be able to access a loco or carriage shed anyway? If not then I guess one could argue that a mezzanine to view same would not be considered discriminatory?

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Which takes us back in a full circle to the original post.
How can a heritage railway achieve such access without financial support from its supporters?
It can't...

Cowley said:

Which takes us back in a full circle to the original post.
How can a heritage railway achieve such access without financial support from its supporters?
It can't...

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I suspect the OP is one of the people who would rather see a railway fail than go in a direction they're not happy with.

Journeyman said:

I suspect the OP is one of the people who would rather see a railway fail than go in a direction they're not happy with.

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... and would spend their time telling anybody who would listen that the railway failed because those whose responsibility it was, didn't listen to the OP's words of wisdom.

I am hoping that this will be the last word on the subject but I know it won't be. (this is post 126)
1) Heritage railways need volunteers and financial support to survive.
2) Railways are dangerous places and all staff and volunteers must be properly trained in the work that they have to do and abide by all safety regulations/instructions.
3) Members of supporting societies, if not actually working on the railway (see 2 above), have exactly the same status as other members of the public and must not trespass on the railway.

DavidGrain said:

I am hoping that this will be the last word on the subject but I know it won't be. (this is post 126)

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You are right

DavidGrain said:

I am hoping that this will be the last word on the subject but I know it won't be. (this is post 126)
1) Heritage railways need volunteers and financial support to survive.
2) Railways are dangerous places and all staff and volunteers must be properly trained in the work that they have to do and abide by all safety regulations/instructions.
3) Members of supporting societies, if not actually working on the railway (see 2 above), have exactly the same status as other members of the public and must not trespass on the railway.

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1/ Agreed, and it should be realised that most of that financial support comes from the commercial side of the business.
2/ Agreed.
3/ I would go further and say that no-one should trespass on the railway or in any area that they are not authorised to go, unless that is part of their "job" and that they have been fully trained in so to do.

My railway has just introduced a Safety Manual which you have to download, read and then complete a form to say you have done so. Whilst I do not fully agree with this process, as I think some might just download it and sign without reading, it does atleast show that we have made an effort and that all "active" members have been given the document. We also now have a method of machinery assessment so that we have to be "signed off" to use certain items, like circular saws or pillar drills.

Faced with increasing oversight from ORR/HSE/insurers, and also the wish not to have any of their visitors injured, you can understand why certain heritage lines have been tightening up on safety. Despite accusations in the comments above, I don't think that there are many out there who are actually saying that increased safety is a bad thing in itself. It's the means to the end that is annoying some people.

In th OP's example it may have been the easy option for the railway to introduce an outright ban on visitors accessing the lineside and workshop. What the railway should be asking is "how can we continue to allow visitors access to these areas safely?". Maybe, in some cases, that is physically not possible and so be it. One alternative would be a paid-for lineside and shed permit, with all the required safety training provided, issued on the understanding that it would be withdrawn if the rules are broken. Dedicated viewing areas have been mentioned above. The more of the railway that can be kept accessible to supporters, so long as it is safe, the better.

As an active member of a heritage railway connected to the main line, this has been an interesting thread.
I'm encouraged that those who are active understand the constraints that are in place. What many of the posts from non-active members or just visitors either ignore - or don't even know - is that volunteers are covered by the same Health and Safety at Work Act as employees. Thus as pointed out you cannot just sign a disclaimer.
If an accident happens being, sued by a personal injury claim is the least of a railways worries. If the injury is reportable to the HSE then there is every possibility of a fine or sanctions via that route, regardless of the hypothetical claims in advance that people won't sue.

To be honest, visitors and members demanding the right to spontaneously visit sheds is very disruptive. Where I volunteer we have little time at weekends to achieve a set of activities that are needed to keep parts of the railway operational as we still work for a living. Stopping welding, grinding etc. constantly to allow groups to wander through can mean the difference between a loco being repaired and not.

On one occasion due to an over zealous station member offering to show someone around a shed without prior warning we had to suspend a hydrotest on a boiler we really needed to get back in use.
Open weekends with tours are far more effective as we can ensure walkways are clear for all, items that need to be barriers are, and that the visitors get a better experience which is why we are there. And the majority of visitors are just that, families having a nice day out.

There are many older members who say they'd never get work done if we followed health and safety, and if they decide to leave that sometimes is a good thing, but likewise people who work in industry and want to volunteer are often put off by inadequate facilities by modern standards and a poor health and safety culture exhibited by the older members.

Gone are the days of grandfather rights and risking injury just so they can get to the bothie for a tea break. Railways are hazardous environments and need safety management systems and competencies like any other industry. It may not be popular with some, but the changes I've seen in the last 15 years are all positive. We now have competencies and grade cards, a safety management system and railway standard rules and exams.

Working with volunteers is always more challenging than employees, but if the volunteers understand why the rules and controls are in place - the legal requirement for the railway to protect them and the public - they usually come onside. For those that cannot or will not understand this, then maybe there is no longer a place for these people as active volunteers.

BigB

I'll largely refrain from commenting except to say the days of playing trains of a weekend are largely over. Different standards are demanded and they don't cheap. Compliance is expected. This will put some people off being involved and while it's a shame in a way that the days of wandering around at will are about done, there's still plenty to enjoy. As an example on my railway the trains are all fitted with tracking devices. These report any overspeed incidents automatically to the management team and they're reviewed daily. There's common sense applied as there is on the national network but the days of trains romping around willy nilly are done.

It's the same with the maintenance depots. Guided tours are available but wandering around open pits etc on your own as a visitor is no longer allowed. People have fallen in to them in the past.

LowLevel said:

It's the same with the maintenance depots. Guided tours are available but wandering around open pits etc on your own as a visitor is no longer allowed. People have fallen in to them in the past.

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Totally agree with the majority of sentiments on this thread. You can never foresee what people are going to do, sometimes deliberately but mostly through inattention or clumsiness - and I speak as someone who often falls upstairs or walks into posts. I think the following story, though non-railway, takes the biscuit. Fancy smashing two Ming vases!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/feb/06/arts.artsnews1

johnnychips said:

Totally agree with the majority of sentiments on this thread. You can never foresee what people are going to do, sometimes deliberately but mostly through inattention or clumsiness - and I speak as someone who often falls upstairs or walks into posts. I think the following story, though non-railway, takes the biscuit. Fancy smashing two Ming vases!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/feb/06/arts.artsnews1

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It's true enough. I've hurt myself on duty a few times - it's the nature of railway work - and you fill the book on and move on. I know people who have fallen into pits and various other misadventures. There doesn't tend to be a problem (though exceptions occur).

Regrettably when the public are involved however ambulance chasing does occur. I know of one case where a gentleman wearing entirely unsuitable shoes for visiting a railway slipped and fell on some wooden stairs and successfully sued the company for quite a large sum.

The insurers expect you to limit your exposure to such issues where possible and having people wander around a shed with train movements and open pits doesn't demonstrate that.

If the SDR toilet door incident had resulted in a fatality, I think we'd be looking at widespread closures of heritage railways by now, even some of the really big ones.

Another heritage sector near-miss, resulting from the same overconfidence and failure to have adequate safety systems, was the steam charter SPAD recently, as a consequence of unauthorised TPWS isolation. That came terrifyingly close to an HST ploughing into Mark 1s at speed. The result would have been multiple fatalities, probably dozens. Do you think the ORR would let us all carry on playing trains if that had happened?

Journeyman said:

If the SDR toilet door incident had resulted in a fatality, I think we'd be looking at widespread closures of heritage railways by now, even some of the really big ones.

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Highly doubt that. I can't even imagine the SDR would have closed for good, though it'd have had ride out a hell of a storm and come out the other side a different entity...

As Llanigraham says, a lot of comparisons can be drawn between the heritage railway scene and rallying. It's probably in the best interests of those around the former to study the case of the latter to see what lessons can be learnt, before they have to learn them the hard way...

the sniper said:

As Llanigraham says, a lot of comparisons can be drawn between the heritage railway scene and rallying. It's probably in the best interests of those around the former to study the case of the latter to see what lessons can be learnt, before they have to learn them the hard way...

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Absolutely. Safety lessons in one industry or activity often have implications for others. I'm bit of an accident report geek, and I've read loads of them. In my work on the railway, I've found reports on things like the Herald Of Free Enterprise capsize, and a range of air crash reports, to be supremely relevant. A lot of them have very important "human factors" lessons, especially that a "this is the way we've always done it" culture is asking for trouble.

It's worth reading up on the life and work of Formula 1 driver Jackie Stewart. At the height of his career, he suffered a serious crash, and the poor facilities and absolutely minimal attempts to make racing safer nearly cost him his life. He campaigned for and won a number of concessions that have significantly reduced the fatalities in Grand Prix racing, and he really challenged the complacent culture that says "we don't need to change anything, because nothing really bad has happened before".

Journeyman said:

If the SDR toilet door incident had resulted in a fatality, I think we'd be looking at widespread closures of heritage railways by now, even some of the really big ones.

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I highly doubt that. We don't close things just because someone gets injured of killed (although it unfortunately looks like its going that way). I think H&S is way over the top and needs to be reined back a little.

Charlie Smythe said:

I highly doubt that. We don't close things just because someone gets injured of killed (although it unfortunately looks like its going that way). I think H&S is way over the top and needs to be reined back a little.

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Are you seriously suggesting that heritage railways should be allowed to be more likely to kill people than they are at the moment?

Charlie Smythe said:

I highly doubt that. We don't close things just because someone gets injured of killed (although it unfortunately looks like its going that way). I think H&S is way over the top and needs to be reined back a little.

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To a very slight you have a possible point, but only slight. Bear in mind that even in the "heritage" sector where operation are at relatively low/slow speeds trains are just as deadly as on any mainline running at high speeds. By the same token a steam locomotive has the potential to be a very deadly explosive device. Which if not treat in the right way could kill at a very minimum 2 people [the crew] or several hundred in the form of passengers/other staff and anybody else near by should the boiler blow up........

Journeyman said:

Are you seriously suggesting that heritage railways should be allowed to more likely to kill people than they are at the moment?

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Indeed I quite agree with you Journeyman. When you read/heard some of the Late Dick Hardy's remarks/anecdotes from his early career, it's somewhat surprising that he and other "big" names within the rail industry survived to reach retirement and move into the Heritage sector passing on their knowledge. He even said as much himself, that some of the practices they got away with were at the very least hair raising.............

This forum at times...

Considering on the main network we are having line blockages for reports of people on the line and nearly daily reports of suicide attempts shutting running lines, it seems deeply inappropriate for "in this day and age" to essentially have unrestricted access to the trackside. Considering the hoops you have to jump through to get PTS and the (totally reasonable) drive for improved safety from Network Rail, I was generally surprised at just how free and easy access is/was.

What are the rules behind these photo passes? Do you have to sign in and out, have a buddy?, what if you are crossing the track and have an accident and get hit by a train later on? Are there full PPE requirements? I dare say being in bright orange in the back of another "enthusiasts" shot will make them unhappy. I dont recally frequently seeing photographers on heritage railways in adequate PPE for being trackside.

The way for heritage railways to survive and get new volunteers in is to attract a younger demographic, those who British Railways doesnt actually mean anything other than a name in a history book which they never experienced in real life. These are people who are working in the industry today and actively using NRs health and safety rules and if they turned up to work at a Heritage Railway and were not provided with PPE (ok, they are volunteers, chances are they might end up paying for it themselves) and were asked to do tasks they were not trained for, they would run a mile.

Heritage railways need to come willingly or be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century as just one unfortunate accident or act of negligence that results in a fatality or serious injury could bring the hole house of cards tumbling down for everyone. It is a lot easier to improve your safety systems and operations with a clean operating record, rather than a HSE improvement notice hanging over your head or an operating suspension as no one will want to run or ride on a heritage railway that cant run trains.

Journeyman said:

Are you seriously suggesting that heritage railways should be allowed to be more likely to kill people than they are at the moment?

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Heritage railways are perfectly fine as they are, deaths or serious injury are very, very rare because of this i feel as if the safety standards are fine as they are. The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.

yoyothehobo said:

The way for heritage railways to survive and get new volunteers in is to attract a younger demographic, those who British Railways doesnt actually mean anything other than a name in a history book which they never experienced in real life. These are people who are working in the industry today and actively using NRs health and safety rules and if they turned up to work at a Heritage Railway and were not provided with PPE (ok, they are volunteers, chances are they might end up paying for it themselves) and were asked to do tasks they were not trained for, they would run a mile.

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I would say that I am of the younger demographic seeing as i am 17. Also, if were to go volunteer or work on a heritage railway and i arrived and was told that I didn't need a hardhat and Hi-Viz, i would be delighted.

Charlie Smythe said:

Heritage railways are perfectly fine as they are, deaths or serious injury are very, very rare because of this i feel as if the safety standards are fine as they are. The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.

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Luck rather than judgement.

This had the potential to be a nasty incident. Fortunately it wasn't, but as a result changes in processes/procedures have to be made.

Anybody working on a railway (volunteer, staff, mainline, heritage) needs to be dressed appropriately (same in other industries) to be identifiable to avoid causing any concern to other members of staff etc.

Would you be happy walking round a building site with no protective clothing? I certainly wouldn't, so if I was visiting areas normally out of bounds to the public, I would expect to a) be accompanied and b) be given appropriate clothing to protect me. I certainly would not expect to be able to wander the line at will.

Take a trip to somewhere like the Laxey Wheel. By the wheel is a small cave - you can only go in wearing a hard hat. No complaints from anybody there, although it's obvious that it has low headroom. Same at a number of other showcaves etc across the country.

Charlie Smythe said:

I would say that I am of the younger demographic seeing as i am 17. Also, if were to go volunteer or work on a heritage railway and i arrived and was told that I didn't need a hardhat and Hi-Viz, i would be delighted.

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Were you to volunteer on any properly run railway and evince the kind of views you have, then you would soon be warned off.

Charlie Smythe said:

Heritage railways are perfectly fine as they are, deaths or serious injury are very, very rare because of this i feel as if the safety standards are fine as they are. The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.

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As someone who is involved in running what you might call a premier league heritage railway I am afraid your naivety shows through.

In terms of incidents per numbers of trains operated the heritage railway industry has far more than the national network.

We are increasingly aware that standards haven't been good enough and on responsible railways a lot of work is being undertaken to correct that.

Different standards may be used to the national network however - a common or garden heritage railway with a 25 mph speed limit is not an electrified 4 track 125 mph mainline and adopting exactly the same working practices would be costly overkill.

The challenge is to come up with robust, appropriate standards and ensure they're being adhered to.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the poor guard who was killed on the NYMR only six years ago, this should serve as prime example when procedures are not properly followed and competency management is non existant.

Preserved railways are amazing and important places, but they are still railways. And while its good emulate the past, working practices of the last century are something that certainly shouldn't be. Scores of staff have been maimed or killed in the past working in those kinds of conditions..

Charlie Smythe said:

Heritage railways are perfectly fine as they are, deaths or serious injury are very, very rare because of this i feel as if the safety standards are fine as they are. The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.

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If that's your opinion, you shouldn't be allowed within ten miles of a heritage railway.

Charlie Smythe said:

The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.

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I don't know without checking whether there was a fine. If there was, they will want to ensure they don't have another one, and another, and another, etc. that will be unsustainable. The effective way to prevent infinite fines it to prevent incidents in the first place, and the way to prevent incidents it to have proper procedures in place (including a procedure of how to deal with people not following the procedures).

The railway was built from the outset on (evolving) rules. As I commented earlier, if the 'fun' railways want to be railways they need to work like railways, i.e. have proper safety rules that evolve to suit, as a minimum, the prevailing conditions, requirements and expectations.

Journeyman said:

If that's your opinion, you shouldn't be allowed within ten miles of a heritage railway.

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or 100 miles of the big railway! I suspect the opinion is based on ignorance and youth but it is still very poor.

LowLevel said:

We are increasingly aware that standards haven't been good enough and on responsible railways a lot of work is being undertaken to correct that.

Different standards may be used to the national network however - a common or garden heritage railway with a 25 mph speed limit is not an electrified 4 track 125 mph mainline and adopting exactly the same working practices would be costly overkill.

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but we are talking about a complete lack of even very basic HSE standards BEFORE we get onto operational standards.

Charlie Smythe said:

The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.

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Not an accident? what on earth are you talking about. Have you read the report?

DarloRich said:

but we are talking about a complete lack of even very basic HSE standards BEFORE we get onto operational standards.

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Where I volunteer my services I don't have any particular concerns on that score. There are health and safety professionals appointed within the company to help manage and oversee these issues. They include people from all walks of life.

We have health and safety industry professionals, railwaymen, a former chief training captain for a major international airline and so on all meeting regularly to produce and maintain standards.

The paper trail is ridiculous nowadays but that is what is expected of you.