Requeststop
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As I said in my post, the barriers are open, and unmanned. You don't have to pass your ticket through the scanner.
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What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?
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Bath Spa’s exit barriers are usually open in the mornings, probably due to staffing constraints. They are always open in the evening too. In fact, as trains usually arrive at the same/similar times, if they are closed you get people queuing up the stairs so they just open them anyway, probably for H&S. Most pointless barriers ever. When the concourse of the station was remodelled, maybe the (already limited) space wasn’t best used.
The single barrier on Platform 1 is usually unstaffed and also has a camera.
The single barrier on Platform 1 is usually unstaffed and also has a camera.
krus_aragon
Established Member
I like that term: "black-faring"!
NoOnesFool
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You pretty much answered your own question with the last sentence. Barriers are a good deterrent for fare evasion. To address some of your points:-
Guards check the tickets onboard even if there has been barriers at the origin station to ensure that the ticket is valid on that specific service and also to prevent 'doughnutting' - people buying a ticket for two small parts of their journey and not buying one to cover the main part.
Gatelines also help when people try to short fare, because if someone claimed to have boarded at a closer station to the destination, an RPO would know that barriers were in operation there, and would therefore be aware of the deception.
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
Another thing that guards help with, people jumping over, sliding under or forcing open barriers to get past in addition to people who show the Gateline staff an invalid ticket and are allowed through. One example is Norwich station which has barriers but is a station where guards on GA services still check tickets on all local services and most (if not all) Intercity services which operate during peak times (presumably because they carry a lot of passengers). From experience all EMT guards working trains from Norwich also check tickets.
As for the RPO scenario, they will know that they have either lied or illegally bypassed the barrier which will help them decide what course of action to take.
Often if you ask nicely staff will let you through, there is a public right of way through Guildford station.
NoOnesFool
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Public rights of way excluded, I disagree with this practise. It leaves the system open to a lot of abuse.
My experience is that fare evaders are smart but chance their one time too many which usually ends up being their downfall. A ticket barrier stops 'casual' fare evasion is not going to stop a professional fare evader.
Funny that you mention Guildford station. It was one of those I was thinking about when remembering short cuts. Before the barriers went in (late 90s?) I used to nip through the station all of the time to save a few minutes when walking into town. I didn't know it was an actual public right of way though.
They already have that power (in a sense). They can give a £20 penalty fare or an MG11 witness statement if the passenger refuses to pay or they suspect something more untoward. The TOC revenue department can then investigate further.
TOCs would never be willing to entertain the thought of RPIs issuing prosecution or a more 'direct' form of legal action you seem to suggest. Mainly due to the lack of clarity over the suspected fare evaders circumstances (i.e. it would appear vigilante to many) and potential for counter action from the passenger if the RPI has followed incorrect procedure. If one passenger's court action is successful then the whole fare revenue collection system could be broke given we follow case law in the UK.
They'll happily stick to to the relatively safe haven of penalty fares which are enshrined in law. Leave the prosecution stuff to the experts as the law is a minefield.
TOC's have policing fare evasion all wrong. On the brussels public transport system its all on trust. no barriers. You buy a ticket of you need one from the driver or a machine. But they have teams of about 6 enforcement people who swoop on a vehicle and properly check the tickets and issue stiff fines to the ticketless. The big fines re enough to deter ticketless travel. And they dont let you get off till you have been seen to. they only seem to catch a few people so seems to work.
Mainline421
Member
There are ticket barriers on the Metro in Brussels.
sorry. not been there for a while. Are there barriers on the pre-metro?
johnnychips
Established Member
If you mean the trams that sort of run underground, yes.
its called pre-metro because it been sized to take Metro trains eventually.
Aictos
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Since when has St Neots have a remotely operated gateline? Are you sure you're not thinking of Huntingdon as St Neots has theirs on the footbridge and as you can't leave the platforms without passing though it, it sounds silly to also have a second gateline elsewhere on the station.
Also note that the footbridge's unpaid area also acts as a public right of way for access to/from Loves Farm so doubt very much that St Neots has any entrance/exit remotely supervised unlike Huntingdon.
Since when are the barriers at Moor Street open? I used it quite frequently in the last 18 months on the London to Birmingham route and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen them wide open.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Last Friday evening, last Saturday, last Sunday. Ever time I passed Moor Street they were wide open.
causton
Established Member
Since WMT have started manning the barriers from first to last train, a lot of staff members have commented on the fact that the Chiltern gateline is left open and people are using Moor Street instead of Snow Hill for example. So I would tend to trust their reports. Last 2 times I went the gates were open, one time the second gateline, one the main one, so it's not always shut!
Esker-pades
Established Member
I think that's either luckiness (or unluckiness). The two times I've used Moor St (both Saturdays) they've been shut.
Indeed different methods for different types of fare evasion . And of course without spending disproportionate sums there are always some that will get away with it .
Not quite how precedent works , it is only applicable to decisions of superior courts .
The real reason that prosecutions are managed by TOC's the way they are is because it is more efficient . It would be perfectly possible to have every RPI trained up and responsible for their own casework . But it would involve recruitment and training of suitable people . Instead its better having a larger number of front-line staff collecting the evidence on the ground . And a smaller team of prosecutors preparing the cases and making the actual decisions . But front-line staff can and do report people to the prosecutions department who eventually get prosecuted . I know I have withdrawn a few fraudulent travel documents in the past which have resulted in prosecutions .
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
True. I actually meant the TOC, not the RPOs. My point is that some TOCs let people without a ticket pay the full fare when challenged or issue a UFN if they have no means to pay. That is too lenient in my view.
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
Does it not partially defeat the point of ticket barriers when at some stations passengers are let through the barriers (when heading in the direction towards the exit) if they insist on being let through regardless of whether or not they have a valid ticket?
cjp
Member
Only if barrier staff are not competent and if said staff are slow and meticulous it will discourage such behaviour in favour of the quicker automatic gates .
TurbostarFan
On Moderation
Good idea in theory but in practice how are said staff supposed to be "slow and meticulous" without breaching company policy?
Ever been on the Moscow metro? They work on the basis that the barriers stay open, but close if you try to go through without putting in a valid token. A sort of "kneecapping" approach if you're hurrying. Naturally, if one of your travel companions happens to put the token in the wrong barrier and gets "kneecapped", it's very rude to laugh...
Of course, station barriers have other roles.
Now, everybody knows that children on train are a nightmare to your standard, grumpy, entitled commuter. Right? So, barriers can be deployed to make stations as hostile an environment as possible to those travelling with children, particularly those in pushchairs.
Want a single wide gate for both entrance and exit, where you have to queue up with everybody with children, luggage, bikes, tickets that don't work or from a station with a broken machine? Want to have to juggle a gurning toddler, a pushchair, some luggage, a sippy cup, a dummy while finding the right combination of tickets for your family group? Want to have to negotiate getting to the other side of the barriers to find the baby changing?
No, well, why would you. Best to buy an oversized MPV and choke up the city instead. And leave the trains to their rightful users, grumpy commuters.
Now, everybody knows that children on train are a nightmare to your standard, grumpy, entitled commuter. Right? So, barriers can be deployed to make stations as hostile an environment as possible to those travelling with children, particularly those in pushchairs.
Want a single wide gate for both entrance and exit, where you have to queue up with everybody with children, luggage, bikes, tickets that don't work or from a station with a broken machine? Want to have to juggle a gurning toddler, a pushchair, some luggage, a sippy cup, a dummy while finding the right combination of tickets for your family group? Want to have to negotiate getting to the other side of the barriers to find the baby changing?
No, well, why would you. Best to buy an oversized MPV and choke up the city instead. And leave the trains to their rightful users, grumpy commuters.
Urban Gateline
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Yes you are right, the issue is that some TOC's use agency staff to work on the Ticket Barriers, who cannot deal with fare evaders as they have no ticket selling equipment nor training to issue penalty fares or MG11's. So all those agency staff can do is advise the passenger they could have been liable to a penalty fare and direct them to the ticket office to pay their fare (let's face it a lot of people would just walk out of the station and ignore that instruction anyway!)
So in these cases the ticket barriers are more of a visual deterrent to casual fare evaders and people trying to enter the station without valid tickets. The prolific fare evaders will most times get away with it anyway due to the no-touch policy of all TOC's, so they have free reign to push through the Wide aisle gates or follow someone else through, not good but the system is open to exploitation unfortunately.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though to be fair (and I'm pretty sure it's LNR's model for staffing for the full period of service) the vast majority of fare dodgers are casual ones, i.e. "pay when challenged", and a staffed barrier provides that challenge. It has also meant toilets open at Bletchley for the full period of service, which is a massive improvement. So I'm all for it.
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