Standards for M and E tickets?

cjp · 15 Mar 2019

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #26 originally in this thread.

Are there no standards for these electronic tickets?
There is a standard for the nice orange cards but of course even those get replaced by till roll tickets when bought on a train.
As I said earlier I will stick to my pieces of card for now thank you very much

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 15 Mar 2019

cjp said:
Are there no standards for these electronic tickets?
There is a standard for the nice orange cards but of course even those get replaced by till roll tickets when bought on a train.
As I said earlier I will stick to my pieces of card for now thank you very much

Standards, ha, who gives a damn about those?!

Haywain · 16 Mar 2019

cjp said:
Are there no standards for these electronic tickets?

Of course there are. There are formats for both m-tickets and e-tickets, in the same way there are formats for credit card sized tickets and paper roll tickets. The differences you are referring to are about delivery, in the same way as credit card sized tickets can be sent by post or collected as ToD.

CentralTrainer · 16 Mar 2019

Just to muddy waters further - I use the Trainline app regularly for similar journeys on the same route (normally radiating from Birmingham New Street) and sometimes I get an M-Ticket which needs to be downloaded and activated - other times I get an e-ticket that drops straight into my Apple Wallet.

This seems to be entirely random and no standardisation at all.

radamfi · 16 Mar 2019

Haywain said:
The differences you are referring to are about delivery, in the same way as credit card sized tickets can be sent by post or collected as ToD.

There is just as much a need for the delivery method to be standardised as the actual medium being produced.

najaB · 16 Mar 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
There is just as much a need for the delivery method to be standardised as the actual medium being produced.

Why? People aren't locked in to any specific vendor. As long as customers are able to find an option that suits their needs then all is good.

radamfi · 16 Mar 2019

najaB said:
Why? People aren't locked in to any specific vendor. As long as customers are able to find an option that suits their needs then all is good.

There are complaints earlier in the thread about the differing delivery and activation methods.

najaB · 16 Mar 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
There are complaints earlier in the thread about the differing delivery and activation methods.

That's different. The issues raised earlier were largely around m-ticket apps that require a data connection to open, even after the ticket has been activated, and one specific case where GWR treat e-tickets as if they are m-tickets (only accessible in their app).

There's no pressing need to force TOCs to offer the same delivery options. If TOC A choses not offer paper tickets by mail then that's their loss - if I want paper tickets I'll just order from TOC B instead.

Similarly, if TOC C allows e-tickets to be displayed in their app (or saved from the app) and TOC D doesn't display them in the app but sends them by email and allows you to show that instead, there's no problem as long as they make it clear how to use the ticket.

35B · 17 Mar 2019

najaB said:
That's different. The issues raised earlier were largely around m-ticket apps that require a data connection to open, even after the ticket has been activated, and one specific case where GWR treat e-tickets as if they are m-tickets (only accessible in their app).

There's no pressing need to force TOCs to offer the same delivery options. If TOC A choses not offer paper tickets by mail then that's their loss - if I want paper tickets I'll just order from TOC B instead.

Similarly, if TOC C allows e-tickets to be displayed in their app (or saved from the app) and TOC D doesn't display them in the app but sends them by email and allows you to show that instead, there's no problem as long as they make it clear how to use the ticket.

I disagree. Part of the problem is that electronic tickets are coming with various labels and requirements for what are nominally the same product. This is leading to confusion for irregular consumers and causing them problems on train. A level of standardisation of delivery means that all get the same experience.

Meanwhile, I will continue to prefer orange card.

jrh2254 · 17 Mar 2019

If someone buy's an e-ticket advance fare for a specific train and they don't activate it until say the guard comes round, is this against the rules?
What advantage is there in not activating the e-ticket as it expires as soon as the train reaches its destination anyway?

Haywain · 17 Mar 2019

jrh2254 said:
If someone buy's an e-ticket advance fare for a specific train and they don't activate it until say the guard comes round, is this against the rules?
What advantage is there in not activating the e-ticket as it expires as soon as the train reaches its destination anyway?

An e-ticket does not require activation.

jrh2254 · 17 Mar 2019

Haywain said:
An e-ticket does not require activation.

Ok thanks. What about if its an advance m-ticket?

_toommm_ · 17 Mar 2019

jrh2254 said:
Ok thanks. What about if its an advance m-ticket?

Really it does need to be activated beforehand - TheTrainLine offers travel insurance so technically you could probably refund it if it remained inactivated. Just like you need to collect tickets before boarding, you need to activate before boarding..

jrh2254 · 17 Mar 2019

_toommm_ said:
Really it does need to be activated beforehand - TheTrainLine offers travel insurance so technically you could probably refund it if it remained inactivated. Just like you need to collect tickets before boarding, you need to activate before boarding..

ok thanks , I had not thought of the insurance angle!

najaB · 17 Mar 2019

35B said:
I disagree. Part of the problem is that electronic tickets are coming with various labels and requirements for what are nominally the same product. This is leading to confusion for irregular consumers and causing them problems on train. A level of standardisation of delivery means that all get the same experience.

The thing that most people don't understand is the difference between e-tickets and m-tickets - hence why I noted that TOCs need to do a better job of explaining how to use what they just sold.

ForTheLoveOf · 17 Mar 2019

najaB said:
The thing that most people don't understand is the difference between e-tickets and m-tickets - hence why I noted that TOCs need to do a better job of explaining how to use what they just sold.

The issue goes beyond that though. An e-ticket is something that can be shown in any format, without activation, just like an airline e-ticket can be (they have been all on e-tickets for nearly two decades at this point!). If you are given an "e-ticket" that can only be shown within one particular app then it isn't an e-ticket at all, and it's severely misleading to use that term. Unfortunately the FirstGroup TOCs somehow think that's ok, as it's the way their apps work.

najaB · 17 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If you are given an "e-ticket" that can only be shown within one particular app then it isn't an e-ticket at all, and it's severely misleading to use that term.

And I noted that anomaly in an earlier post.

wildcard · 18 Mar 2019

A couple of questions before I consider using m-tickets ( or m-tickets masquerading as e-tickets ) .
I understand the ticket has to be "downloaded" to the phone as a separate conscious action by the user - why isn't this automatic at the point payment is taken ? (i.e. confirmation of your card details )
Does activation of the ticket before boarding need a data connection. Is this app dependant - if so why ?
If no data connection is required - why do some OP's assert that a lack of a connection is the reason they couldn't display the ticket to the inspector ( and hence "not their fault" ).
As an aside barrier scanning of an e-ticket on a mobile seems highly unreliable - I don't think I have ever seen one work first time at Euston or New Street .
Personally the only time I would consider a m-ticket is as a discounted carnet type offering otherwise I will stick with cardboard.

najaB · 18 Mar 2019

wildcard said:
I understand the ticket has to be "downloaded" to the phone as a separate conscious action by the user - why isn't this automatic at the point payment is taken ?

Because the device you're using to purchase the ticket may not be the device you'll use to travel (e.g. buying a ticket for a journey in a month's time, but getting a new phone next week or you might want to buy tickets for more than one person's use).

wildcard said:
Does activation of the ticket before boarding need a data connection. Is this app dependant - if so why ?

No, it does not.

wildcard said:
If no data connection is required - why do some OP's assert that a lack of a connection is the reason they couldn't display the ticket to the inspector ( and hence "not their fault" ).

In some cases it is because the app itself refuses to open without a data connection (very poor design), but more likely for the same reason(s) that some people only date carnet tickets when they see the inspector coming.

Bletchleyite · 18 Mar 2019

wildcard said:
A couple of questions before I consider using m-tickets ( or m-tickets masquerading as e-tickets ) .

E-tickets do not require activation, they are sent as a phone-screen-sized PDF by e-mail and you can use them how you want.

With some TOCs you can also download them as M-tickets which do require activation but the original E-ticket remains valid.

PeterC · 18 Mar 2019

I can see how confusing this must be to the casual user whose experience of buying tickets online is more likely to be of event tickets. If I don't need to "activate" a ticket from WeGotTickets on my phone why would I assume that a train ticket worked differently to the one for the gig that I was travelling to?

najaB · 18 Mar 2019

PeterC said:
I can see how confusing this must be to the casual user whose experience of buying tickets online is more likely to be of event tickets. If I don't need to "activate" a ticket from WeGotTickets on my phone why would I assume that a train ticket worked differently to the one for the gig that I was travelling to?

One would hope that you wouldn't need to assume - it would be made clear as part of the purchase journey that you need to activate the ticket. Most apps do, I can't speak for all of them.

PeterC · 18 Mar 2019

najaB said:
One would hope that you wouldn't need to assume - it would be made clear as part of the purchase journey that you need to activate the ticket. Most apps do, I can't speak for all of them.

From working in the entertainment industry I know that customers will open a door with a "sold out" sign, walk up to the box office and stand beside another "sold out" sign to try and buy a ticket. Whatever you do to make T&Cs "clear" a significant minority will fail to see them. Better to be consistent not only across the industry but, where appropriate, between industries.

[.n] · 18 Mar 2019

najaB said:
Because the device you're using to purchase the ticket may not be the device you'll use to travel (e.g. buying a ticket for a journey in a month's time, but getting a new phone next week or you might want to buy tickets for more than one person's use).

No, it does not.
In some cases it is because the app itself refuses to open without a data connection (very poor design), but more likely for the same reason(s) that some people only date carnet tickets when they see the inspector coming.

I think with some apps you do need a data connection at time of activation (otherwise how does the "word of the day" graphic get the correct word?)

As one of the people who has previously posted, around the poorly coded apps that do not open at all without a data connection, I resent the implication you make around the connection between this and those who don't date carnets

najaB · 18 Mar 2019

[.n] said:
I think with some apps you do need a data connection at time of activation (otherwise how does the "word of the day" graphic get the correct word?)

Hence the comment about poor design. TOTP (Time-based One Time Password) doesn't require a data connection.

[.n] said:
As one of the people who has previously posted, around the poorly coded apps that do not open at all without a data connection, I resent the implication you make around the connection between this and those who don't date carnets

I suggest you re-read my post. I clearly said that some people can't open the app without a data connection and other people choose not to activate for other reasons, likely similar to how some people don't date carnets (and made it clear that there may be more than one reason).

_toommm_ · 18 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
E-tickets do not require activation, they are sent as a phone-screen-sized PDF by e-mail and you can use them how you want.

With some TOCs you can also download them as M-tickets which do require activation but the original E-ticket remains valid.

But some e tickets are app only e.g. TPE app.

yorkie · 21 Mar 2019

The new style "e-tickets" are good; you can show the barcode on any device (or on paper), the standards for them are sensible, and they do not need "activating".

My understanding is that "m-tickets" are an interim/temporary solution and that in future all tickets should be "e-tickets", can anyone confirm if that's correct?

Print@Home tickets were a disaster, as people were unfairly penalised for not printing them, and m-tickets are similarly a disaster because of issues with activation, apps, and all sorts of other nonsense.

alistairlees · 21 Mar 2019

yorkie said:
The new style "e-tickets" are good; you can show the barcode on any device (or on paper), the standards for them are sensible, and they do not need "activating".

My understanding is that "m-tickets" are an interim/temporary solution and that in future all tickets should be "e-tickets", can anyone confirm if that's correct?

Print@Home tickets were a disaster, as people were unfairly penalised for not printing them, and m-tickets are similarly a disaster because of issues with activation, apps, and all sorts of other nonsense.

There's a general direction of travel to eTickets.

alistairlees · 21 Mar 2019

_toommm_ said:
But some e tickets are app only e.g. TPE app.

Those would be m-tickets then.

Basically:
- needs an app and to be activated = m-ticket
- doesn't need an app, or to be activated, and can be popped in your Apple Wallet or just shown on screen or on paper = eTicket

The barcode's the same in both.

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2019

Most TOCs will let you download an E ticket as an M ticket, but doing so doesn't invalidate the barcode on the PDF (I believe).

Standards for M and E tickets?

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