Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

Goldfish62 · 10 Mar 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
SSWT took 442s off lease as part of money saving initiative with 458s being offered at rock bottom price nothing to do with reliability - in fact the 442s were at that point achieving better MPC than the 458s, although subsequently before the rebuild into 458/5s the 458s did steadily climb the MPC table due to a lot of hard work by Wimbledon Depot.

SWR chose 442s as they were the only available DC stock that could be put into traffic fairly quickly to increase capacity; yes they are taking a while to get back into traffic but so are the brand new Bombadier Aventras to get into traffic.

With any new or reinstated train it’s always a bit of a gamble...

The 458s were absolutely dreadful for the first year or so after they were reinstated, even worse than they'd been prior to withdrawal. The Reading line service was seriously affected for a long time and SWT got an absolute pasting at the time.

RailUK Forums

Matt Taylor · 16 Mar 2019

SWT got rid of the 442s because the 458s became available at dirt cheap prices, at that point they only about two years older than the earliest of SWRs current Class 450s so not really old by any means.

Meanwhile, last week's 442 guard training was cancelled, still hoping it might tsrta this month but an April 2nd introduction looks incredibly optimistic.

Helvellyn · 16 Mar 2019

I see in the latest issue of RAIL that Paul Clifton has been advised that the refurbishment costs have gone over the cost of acquiring new built units. I know 5aking the 442s was about getting additional capacity PDQ but I wonder if it reaches a point where SWR seriously consider taking something else in a year or so - displaced 350/2s or even keep the 458s (reduced back to 4-cars)?

Monty · 16 Mar 2019

Helvellyn said:
I see in the latest issue of RAIL that Paul Clifton has been advised that the refurbishment costs have gone over the cost of acquiring new built units. I know 5aking the 442s was about getting additional capacity PDQ but I wonder if it reaches a point where SWR seriously consider taking something else in a year or so - displaced 350/2s or even keep the 458s (reduced back to 4-cars)?

I don't think SWR are that bothered, as they are not paying for it.

Bletchleyite · 16 Mar 2019

Helvellyn said:
I see in the latest issue of RAIL that Paul Clifton has been advised that the refurbishment costs have gone over the cost of acquiring new built units. I know 5aking the 442s was about getting additional capacity PDQ but I wonder if it reaches a point where SWR seriously consider taking something else in a year or so - displaced 350/2s or even keep the 458s (reduced back to 4-cars)?

12-car 2+2 reseated 350/2s would be perfect.

swt_passenger · 16 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
12-car 2+2 reseated 350/2s would be perfect.

With 20/20 hindsight. As pointed out many times they were not made available early enough.

moley · 16 Mar 2019

Monty said:
I don't think SWR are that bothered, as they are not paying for it.

No, but it gets to a point where SWR need to be held to account for not doing their due diligence on the state of the units and costs needed to be incurred.

Monty · 16 Mar 2019

moley said:
No, but it gets to a point where SWR need to be held to account for not doing their due diligence on the state of the units and costs needed to be incurred.

Units were not in that bad of a state, the corrision was rectified relatively quickly. Delays caused by sub contractors dropping the ball during the refurbishment and modifications to the traction interlock system taking longer than expected. Doesn't help NR have taken forever and a day to get route clearance on the Portsmouth direct.

Goldfish62 · 17 Mar 2019

moley said:
No, but it gets to a point where SWR need to be held to account for not doing their due diligence on the state of the units and costs needed to be incurred.

Did that happen to SWT because of the issues with the 458 project?

HamworthyGoods · 17 Mar 2019

moley said:
No, but it gets to a point where SWR need to be held to account for not doing their due diligence on the state of the units and costs needed to be incurred.

No difference to Cross Country or Scotrail HSTs taking forever to be refurbished or indeed the class 710s or 717s being seriously delayed entering traffic - things on the railway often cost more or take longer than anticipated. To a degree though you make the best decision at the time and once you’ve set your stall out have to continue....

MotorcycleAlan · 17 Mar 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
To a degree though you make the best decision at the time and once you’ve set your stall out have to continue....

Indeed.
If only the highly skilled, professional and experienced people running the needlessly over-complicated railway would seek advice from some of the clever people on here, things would run much more smoothly.

theironroad · 17 Mar 2019

Matt Taylor said:
SWT got rid of the 442s because the 458s became available at dirt cheap prices, at that point they only about two years older than the earliest of SWRs current Class 450s so not really old by any means.

Meanwhile, last week's 442 guard training was cancelled, still hoping it might tsrta this month but an April 2nd introduction looks incredibly optimistic.

Not really sure where the April 2 date comes from for 442s. Obviously 2/4 is being made a massive date for other reasons but wasn't aware 442s were anything to do with it.

Rail Blues · 17 Mar 2019

MotorcycleAlan said:
Indeed.
If only the highly skilled, professional and experienced people running the needlessly over-complicated railway would seek advice from some of the clever people on here, things would run much more smoothly.

Because the HSTs to Scotrail and the 442 refurbs are going swimmingly well so far aren't they? Bad decisions being badly executed in both cases. So those working in the industry are far from infallible and can make bad bets despite their experience.

Goldfish62 · 17 Mar 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
No difference to Cross Country or Scotrail HSTs taking forever to be refurbished or indeed the class 710s or 717s being seriously delayed entering traffic - things on the railway often cost more or take longer than anticipated. To a degree though you make the best decision at the time and once you’ve set your stall out have to continue....

But this is SWR we're talking about, who can do no right, unlike SWT which in some people's eyes could do no wrong.

swt_passenger · 17 Mar 2019

Goldfish62 said:
Did that happen to SWT because of the issues with the 458 project?

I wouldn’t expect so. Wouldn’t they expect to be able to rely on the rolling stock engineers employed by the ROSCO doing their job?

Goldfish62 · 17 Mar 2019

swt_passenger said:
I wouldn’t expect so. Wouldn’t they expect to be able to rely on the rolling stock engineers employed by the ROSCO doing their job?

So why should SWR be any different with the 442s?

trainmania100 · 17 Mar 2019

Will they're be entering service soon perhaps? Quite a few in the new livery now so must be soon

swt_passenger · 17 Mar 2019

Goldfish62 said:
So why should SWR be any different with the 442s?

I’m trying to agree with you.

Goldfish62 · 17 Mar 2019

trainmania100 said:
Will they're be entering service soon perhaps? Quite a few in the new livery now so must be soon

Rail mag states a handful in service from the May timetable.

pigs bay · 17 Mar 2019

Goldfish62 said:
But this is SWR we're talking about, who can do no right, unlike SWT which in some people's eyes could do no wrong.

I quite agree with this quote, as everyone thought that stagecoach were the best thing, but if you care to look deeper
1/ they too had problems in their early days cancelling services due to staff shortages.
2/ SWR are having problems with rolling stock partly due to the state swt left them in when they lost the bid.

43096 · 17 Mar 2019

pigs bay said:
2/ SWR are having problems with rolling stock partly due to the state swt left them in when they lost the bid.

Really? Which stock does that apply to?

HamworthyGoods · 17 Mar 2019

pigs bay said:
I quite agree with this quote, as everyone thought that stagecoach were the best thing, but if you care to look deeper
1/ they too had problems in their early days cancelling services due to staff shortages.
2/ SWR are having problems with rolling stock partly due to the state swt left them in when they lost the bid.

Also the decision by SSWT to remove Train Crew Supervisors from depots along with moving Control from Waterloo to Basingstoke are two problems set in the last years of the previous franchise that have really come home to roost since especially when there is any service disruption.

No franchise is perfect however but the common theme is the majority of staff remain the same as they change and generally always try their best:

Monty · 18 Mar 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
Also the decision by SSWT to remove Train Crew Supervisors from depots along with moving Control from Waterloo to Basingstoke are two problems set in the last years of the previous franchise that have really come home to roost since especially when there is any service disruption.

Ironically enough SWR are looking at decentralising the DRM/ORM/Train Crew Supervisor role and put them back into a number of depots. Timetable for this however is unknown.

Goldfish62 · 18 Mar 2019

Monty said:
Ironically enough SWR are looking at decentralising the DRM/ORM/Train Crew Supervisor role and put them back into a number of depots. Timetable for this however is unknown.

Not surprising. Centralising was highlighted by Holden as one of the contributory factors to the deterioration in performance.

pompeyfan · 18 Mar 2019

Monty said:
Ironically enough SWR are looking at decentralising the DRM/ORM/Train Crew Supervisor role and put them back into a number of depots. Timetable for this however is unknown.

And yet they’re not planning on putting them in the biggest depot outside of London!

It’s also a bit of a moot point anyway in my experience, when TCS were around, they had the power and authority to implement shuttle services on their own, they could see the crew in front of them and mileage restrictions were not so much an issue as slammers could run and run, and there was no comeback from a third party contractor who maintained their trains.

Fast forward 20 years, and there’s only 1 number through to the relevant TSM desk, so either you ring them, or the DRM rings them, regardless, the workload when things go wrong can’t be easy to manage, especially if the incident happens where multiple service groups merge. If an incident happens at Wokingham/Chessington/Upwey it’s a lot easier than if you have a major incident at Surbiton (for example)

theironroad · 18 Mar 2019

Monty said:
Ironically enough SWR are looking at decentralising the DRM/ORM/Train Crew Supervisor role and put them back into a number of depots. Timetable for this however is unknown.

Well the posts were being advertised online a few weeks ago.

theironroad · 18 Mar 2019

pigs bay said:
I quite agree with this quote, as everyone thought that stagecoach were the best thing, but if you care to look deeper
1/ they too had problems in their early days cancelling services due to staff shortages.
2/ SWR are having problems with rolling stock partly due to the state swt left them in when they lost the bid.

With regards to your second point, what issues do you think swt left swr with?

700007 · 18 Mar 2019

Intrigued to know what stock was left poorly by South West Trains other than the life expired 1938 stock?

In general SWT actually had some of the best cared for and most reliable trains which have won numerous Golden Spanner awards.

Train Boy · 18 Mar 2019

700007 said:
Intrigued to know what stock was left poorly by South West Trains other than the life expired 1938 stock?

In general SWT actually had some of the best cared for and most reliable trains which have won numerous Golden Spanner awards.

From my personal experience, regularly using services on the South Western Mainline from Weymouth to Waterloo, it felt that shortly after the franchise announcement in March 2017, the condition of the 444s did decrease. The external doors got stuck a lot more or wouldn't lock, more threadbare seats than before, things like this.

I did expect it because the view I saw it as for Stagecoach- what's the point of spending money to keep them in top condition for the remaining 5 months?

The reliability of the 444s has heavily decreased, with 180,000 MTIN score in 2016 down to 100,000 in 2017 and finally 35,000 in 2018. They haven't got better since then, that is for sure!

pompeyfan · 18 Mar 2019

Train Boy said:
From my personal experience, regularly using services on the South Western Mainline from Weymouth to Waterloo, it felt that shortly after the franchise announcement in March 2017, the condition of the 444s did decrease. The external doors got stuck a lot more or wouldn't lock, more threadbare seats than before, things like this.

I did expect it because the view I saw it as for Stagecoach- what's the point of spending money to keep them in top condition for the remaining 5 months?

The reliability of the 444s has heavily decreased, with 180,000 MTIN score in 2016 down to 100,000 in 2017 and finally 35,000 in 2018. They haven't got better since then, that is for sure!

Any chance you could just remind us what MTIN stands for?

Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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