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Are Heritage railways trying to have it both ways ?

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DarloRich

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Where I volunteer my services I don't have any particular concerns on that score. There are health and safety professionals appointed within the company to help manage and oversee these issues. They include people from all walks of life.

We have health and safety industry professionals, railwaymen, a former chief training captain for a major international airline and so on all meeting regularly to produce and maintain standards.

The paper trail is ridiculous nowadays but that is what is expected of you.

good! Some I have visited ( professionally and for pleasure) have not filled me with such confidence
 
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Journeyman

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The paper trail is ridiculous nowadays but that is what is expected of you.

That's so you can prove you've done everything properly, and taken all reasonable steps to keep people safe. Not only does that reduce the risk of things going wrong in the first place, it helps work out how things go wrong if they do, and who is or isn't responsible.

As someone on the "big" railway once said to me, as I signed off the umpteenth sheet of paper on a training course, "a piece of A4 is just the right size to cover your arse".
 

Belperpete

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Where I volunteer my services I don't have any particular concerns on that score. There are health and safety professionals appointed within the company to help manage and oversee these issues. They include people from all walks of life. We have health and safety industry professionals, railwaymen, a former chief training captain for a major international airline and so on all meeting regularly to produce and maintain standards.
It is not good enough to just produce standards - organisations also need to ensure that their people follow those standards. A standard is worthless unless you train people to apply it, and subsequently audit that they consistently and correctly apply it. A common factor in many accidents (such as the SDR one) is that people weren't actually following the standards.
 

Worf

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H&S "rules" are no replacement for personal responsibility, they merely point you in the right direction. A hard hat and hiviz jacket will not stop a train killing you if it hits you. (Volvo driver syndrome!)
Some years ago when I worked in a city, I nipped out for a sandwich at lunchtime. There was a gaggle of people in the "square" behind a red and white "police" tape crowding to take photos on their phones. I asked one of them what they were doing. "The Police think there might be a bomb in the (glass fronted) bank". I remarked that if that was the case, wasn't it rather a daft place to stand, to which they replied "It's ok, we are behind the tape" :rolleyes:
 
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You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to work/volunteer on a railway that conveys members of the public, you must acknowledge your own responsibility to provide, first and foremost, an enviornment that doesn't compromise on safety (both public and employee).

Having the right attitude to passenger safety starts with having the right approach to employee safety. You can't allow a cavalier approach to individual employee safety and then expect workers to snap out of one mindset and into another when they're required to safeguard the public.

I think one of the most interesting things about some of the notable incidents on heritage lines (Guard killed on the NYMR; runaway trolley at ELR; the infamous toilet floor on the SDR) is that it all came from behaviour/actions which would have been identified as incorrect even in the pre-H&S days of the mainline.

The driver of S15 825 would have been written-up by an inspector for not locking the reverser whilst shunting had he done so under BR; an engineer worth his salt would have repremanded the workers using ballast as a scotch for an unbraked trolley on an incline; no carriage & wagon inspector would have entered a carriage into mainline service with a missing floor and only a door-latch to prevent access.

These incidents didn't occur because of an adherance to outdated standards; they happened because nothing was being adhered to (or seldom enforced). Embracing the enthusiasm of amatuers is what makes our heritage railways great, but that's sometimes been used as an excuse to tolerate behavior that would never have had a place on a well-run railway.
 
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LowLevel

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It is not good enough to just produce standards - organisations also need to ensure that their people follow those standards. A standard is worthless unless you train people to apply it, and subsequently audit that they consistently and correctly apply it. A common factor in many accidents (such as the SDR one) is that people weren't actually following the standards.

I am well aware of that. One of my voluntary functions is as a Responsible Officer in charge (the nominated person in charge of operations each day).

I could bore you with a list of compliance activities undertaken but I can't be bothered so suffice to say that are.
 

Peter Kelford

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Surely they can offer shed access upon completion of a training course, which they could charge a fee for.
 
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That comment went down well. It seems to me as though I am the only one who has my views.

People often seems to think that because forms are signed and Hi-Viz jackets are worn that they are safe. If you're in a position one a railway where you need you Hi-Viz to save you its to late.
There also seems to be a lot of people on here who are the type that worry about safety so much that they never do anything.

I suspect the opinion is based on ignorance and youth but it is still very poor.

Why is it poor? Is it because you disagree with it?
My opinion is based on the fact that i find health and safety very frustrating and limiting and the fact that at least at my local (South Devon, Paignton and Dartmouth and West somerset) incident are very rare. They are not based on "ignorance and youth".

Were you to volunteer on any properly run railway and evince the kind of views you have, then you would soon be warned off.

That's why in public where money and image matters, you keep your views quiet and work on them yourself. I am just saying that not wearing and hi viz and hat would be wonderful at any job whether it be on a building site, railway or recycling centre or any other place where PPE is rammed down your neck.
 

Cowley

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Surely they can offer shed access upon completion of a training course, which they could charge a fee for.
The trouble with that is that it could end up taking a valuable member of shed staff away from what they should actually be doing.
 

2392

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Indeed Health & Safety issues goes back to the earliest days of the "Modern" Railway. All you need to do is take a look at the Liverpool & Manchester Railways specifications for motive power to run on their Railway, that were issued for the Rainhill Trails. In particular it specifies that at least one of the safety valves fitted to the boiler should be completely out of reach of the crew. As up until then it had been know for members of the crew to tie down the valves in order to get more "go" out of the engine. Which they did in some cases with tragic circumstances when the boiler would go BANG! Exploding and killing the crew and who ever else was near by......
 
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Indeed Health & Safety issues goes back to the earliest days of the "Modern" Railway. All you need to do is take a look at the Liverpool & Manchester Railways specifications for motive power to run on their Railway, that were issued for the Rainhill Trails. In particular it specifies that at least one of the safety valves fitted to the boiler should be completely out of reach of the crew. As up until then it had been know for members of the crew to tie down the valves in order to get more "go" out of the engine. Which they did in some cases with tragic circumstances when the boiler would go BANG! Exploding and killing the crew and who ever else was near by......

You will probably get imprisoned and a 4 grand fine just for even mentioning such a reckless act.
 
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Surely they can offer shed access upon completion of a training course, which they could charge a fee for.
I suspect that the OP (who seems to have vanished when there wasn't an avalanche of support for his views) would have something to say about a member of a railway having to have training AND pay a fee o_O I doubt that it would be along the lines of "I say, what a top idea".
 

Llanigraham

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Heritage railways are perfectly fine as they are, deaths or serious injury are very, very rare because of this i feel as if the safety standards are fine as they are. The SDR incident didn't result in an accident and i am sure SDR got a huge fine.
The SDR didn't end up with a death more by luck than the failed judgement of those that run that railway. Your comment suggests that you haven't either read the RAIB Report or if you have you have failed to understand it.

I would say that I am of the younger demographic seeing as i am 17. Also, if were to go volunteer or work on a heritage railway and i arrived and was told that I didn't need a hardhat and Hi-Viz, i would be delighted.
I might suggest that at 17 you don't yet understand what and why the H & S legislation is there and how it affects EVERY aspect of your daily life. It also confirms that you aren't a volunteer and I suspect don't actually fully understand what that involves. On the line I volunteer on hi-vis is rarely worn and don't think I have ever seen anyone wear a hard hat, but we do expect (nee demand) that other safety wear is required and will be worn.
I'm afraid that if you came with the attitude towards safety that you seem to relish and have so far shown, then you probably would get far beyond the mess room.
Perhaps you need to get away from the keyboard, join the real world and actually volunteer!
 

Llanigraham

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the poor guard who was killed on the NYMR only six years ago, this should serve as prime example when procedures are not properly followed and competency management is non existant.

Preserved railways are amazing and important places, but they are still railways. And while its good emulate the past, working practices of the last century are something that certainly shouldn't be. Scores of staff have been maimed or killed in the past working in those kinds of conditions..

You could add to that the crane incident on the Telford Railway that nearly resulted in a fatality and resulted in that line being shut for a period.
 

jmh59

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The sad NYMR incident - while remembering someone died is a good case in point for some of the comments here. A fatality yes but the sector was not closed down en masse as a result. The RAIB summary simply ends with:

"The RAIB has identified two key learning points relating to the locking of screwreversers and not going between railway vehicles unless they are stationary. It has also made a recommendation to the North Yorkshire Moors Railway relating to the competence management system covering shunting." (source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8fc7e5274a429000017d/R232012_121018_Grosmont.pdf )

The carriage toilet door incident resulted in a £40k fine iirc.

How do they do TMD (other sheds are available) visits on the big railway - do they even do such things?
 
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The sad NYMR incident - while remembering someone died is a good case in point for some of the comments here. A fatality yes but the sector was not closed down en masse as a result. The RAIB summary simply ends with:

"The RAIB has identified two key learning points relating to the locking of screwreversers and not going between railway vehicles unless they are stationary. It has also made a recommendation to the North Yorkshire Moors Railway relating to the competence management system covering shunting." (source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8fc7e5274a429000017d/R232012_121018_Grosmont.pdf )

The carriage toilet door incident resulted in a £40k fine iirc.

How do they do TMD (other sheds are available) visits on the big railway - do they even do such things?

Yes, they do have TMD visits such as the GWR Longrock open day.
 

Peter Kelford

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How do they do TMD (other sheds are available) visits on the big railway - do they even do such things?
They did. Nowadays, such visits are with visitors who are permanently escorted, with full PPE on and where the parts of the shed ore even the whole shed is stationary/closed to traffic/empty.
 

Peter Kelford

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I would add that courses would allow for seasoned railway photographers and enthusiasts to go and take photos safely. Essentially, both NR and heritage lines could offer a pass/permit for those who have taken a test and have repeatedly shown that they can behave safely around the railway.
 

edwin_m

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I would add that courses would allow for seasoned railway photographers and enthusiasts to go and take photos safely. Essentially, both NR and heritage lines could offer a pass/permit for those who have taken a test and have repeatedly shown that they can behave safely around the railway.
To do that on the modern railway you need a medical, several days of training, refresher every couple of years, and full PPE, all costing well into the hundreds of pounds. Even then large areas are barred to anyone on the track while trains are running, and going trackside involves a lot of planning and risk assessment. None of that would be exmpted just becausae someone's been around a few years.
 

Belperpete

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I would add that courses would allow for seasoned railway photographers and enthusiasts to go and take photos safely. Essentially, both NR and heritage lines could offer a pass/permit for those who have taken a test and have repeatedly shown that they can behave safely around the railway.
But just how do you take photos safely in an inherently unsafe environment? Staff may be allowed to walk trackside on their own, with suitable training and certification, but generally they are not allowed to work alone trackside. When you are working, you can become so engrossed in what you are doing that you fail to be fully aware of what is happening around you. The same happens with photographers: they often become so engrossed in setting the camera up and getting the shot right that they become oblivious to what is happening behind them. A minimum requirement for taking photos safely when trackside or in a functioning workshop is surely that the photographer should be accompanied by someone acting as a "lookout", who will be responsible for the photographer's safety while the photographer is pre-occupied taking photos. I fail to see how allowing unaccompanied individuals to wander around taking photos trackside or in a workshop could be cosidered safe, no matter how much training they have had. The same rules that apply to someone working trackside should surely apply to someone taking photos trackside.
 

2392

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But just how do you take photos safely in an inherently unsafe environment? Staff may be allowed to walk trackside on their own, with suitable training and certification, but generally they are not allowed to work alone trackside. When you are working, you can become so engrossed in what you are doing that you fail to be fully aware of what is happening around you. The same happens with photographers: they often become so engrossed in setting the camera up and getting the shot right that they become oblivious to what is happening behind them. A minimum requirement for taking photos safely when trackside or in a functioning workshop is surely that the photographer should be accompanied by someone acting as a "lookout", who will be responsible for the photographer's safety while the photographer is pre-occupied taking photos. I fail to see how allowing unaccompanied individuals to wander around taking photos trackside or in a workshop could be considered safe, no matter how much training they have had. The same rules that apply to someone working trackside should surely apply to someone taking photos trackside.

Indeed Belperete, speaking of photographers, being preoccupied. There was an incident at Grosmont on the NYMR back in 2016 with Flying Scotsman's visit. It was one of her early outings after re-entering service. This photographer was so preoccupied with getting "the master shot", he moved nearer and nearer the edge of the platform and stepped off the platform in front of 'Scotsman. Luckily 'Scotsman was standing stationary in the Station at the time and no serious harm/injuries were caused. Other than to Mr Master Shots' pride........
 
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DavidGrain

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I was waiting on a platform on the Big Railway one day when there were men working on the track. The lookout blew his horn at the approach of a train. The train turned off at a junction just before the work. The lookout was criticised because he should have know that that train was taking the branch. His reply was that he could not see the junction signal and he could not see the way the points were set from where he was standing. The lookout was correct and the man in charge of the work was wrong.
 

LowLevel

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I was waiting on a platform on the Big Railway one day when there were men working on the track. The lookout blew his horn at the approach of a train. The train turned off at a junction just before the work. The lookout was criticised because he should have know that that train was taking the branch. His reply was that he could not see the junction signal and he could not see the way the points were set from where he was standing. The lookout was correct and the man in charge of the work was wrong.

If a lookout fails to call a train regardless of where they think it is going they'll be suspended and medscreened, known it happen before.

As for shed access, I can tell a story...

A number of years ago now I was shunting a rake of vehicles without a train brake on to a maintenance depot pit. This is completely normal and perfectly safe when undertaken with competent staff who understand the dangers of such movements.

They obviously take some stopping (you only have the loco brake available and the weight of the train will often drag the loco along with the couplings stringing out as well) so as a shunter you have to allow many more times the usual distance for the train to react to any instructions you give the driver.

The road we were using was cordoned off. As we rolled down a photographer took it upon himself to move the cordon aside and and stand in the four foot directly in front of my train photographing it.

He was incandescent when I jumped off having brought it up in a heap telling me he knew full well what he was doing, had been taking photos before I was born, was clearly going to move before the train reached him etc.

Just one of the many reasons I am quite happy that unaccompanied visits to sheds have been finished.
 

Peter Kelford

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With the permit, I am certainly talking about two different types of access.

In terms of heritage railways, I am referring to shed access, not to the running shed where movements are actively taking place, but rather the shed where any restoration work is taking place or where no loco is due to be moved imminently. For instance, if a loco was not needed in the morning but required for the afternoon from 1 pm, shed access would be up to 12:50 pm. In the case of some heritage lines, the permit would permit access to the carriage/waggon shed(s). An additional 'privilege' could be 'box access on less busy lines.

For NR, this is simply a permit to stand on the 'trackside' of any temporary cordons/barriers set up to impede trespass onto the track by the general public. I would not be suggesting that NR suddenly lets people wander in and out of Bounds Green or Old Oak common.
 

whhistle

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Health and Safety is not a dirty expression. It's good working practice, and it makes us think twice before putting ourselves in danger, no matter what anyone says.
While I agree with you, it has also removed a lot of personal responsibility.

I suspect out of 10 accidents, the majority of the people will claim it wasn't their fault, even when it was.
This is what interests me more. Is it to save face? Because they genuinely think they are right?

It's the same with people who lie.
Not huge lies like "I didn't murder that person" but the little ones*

I come into contact with people day in day out who can't instructions on an email, yet then moan when there was no sign informing them of a rather large hole in the ground.

*I witnessed an attack on the Tube once.
Didn't see the beginning but the attacker got off and said to the victim "they'll be waiting for you at the next stop, mate".
My thoughts were:
1) In the less than 20 seconds this whole thing took, when/how did you manage to phone someone?
2) Are the people waiting superman? How would they get to the next stop before the train? (Yes, I appreciate some guy on YouTube did it... once).
Lo and behold, nobody was waiting at the next stop.
But what a horrible thing to say, to increase anxiety in the victim!
No wonder we have so many mental health problems these days.
Even at the time the guy was saying it, he knew it was a lie. So leads me to think whether he said it to (as above), save face? Appear more threatening / stronger? Dunno.
 

alexl92

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I don’t think access to the Running Shed is a realistic expectation unless it’s a special occasion - a supervised, guided tour during a special event for example, and even then should be conducted strictly on the railway’s own terms.

I’d love to to be able to see in the restoration workshops because it fascinates me, but realistically this could only happen safely under strict supervision (taking a volunteer away from another, potentially more crucial job as stated above) or with an NRM-style mezzanine, which costs a lot of money and as mentioned above has implications for disability access.

However, as a casual visitor to heritage railways, what I really love to be able to see, and should be realistically feasible in most cases eventually, is a visitor-accessible shed like those at Oxenhope and Moor Road where you can walk around the engines which are either awaiting restoration/repair or simply not in use for the time being. Similar to the NRM’s south yard tent thing?

Clearly not every railway has the space or funds to do this, but it does represent a great option if it is possible. As an example, I think that the Embsay railway would really benefit from something like that as an additional attraction at the station.
 

Llanigraham

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With the permit, I am certainly talking about two different types of access.

In terms of heritage railways, I am referring to shed access, not to the running shed where movements are actively taking place, but rather the shed where any restoration work is taking place or where no loco is due to be moved imminently. For instance, if a loco was not needed in the morning but required for the afternoon from 1 pm, shed access would be up to 12:50 pm. In the case of some heritage lines, the permit would permit access to the carriage/waggon shed(s). An additional 'privilege' could be 'box access on less busy lines.

You seem to be totally ignoring the fact that even non-running sheds have movements made, that these sheds may contain hazards at various levels, may contain equipment being used, and you don't seem to realise how long it takes to get an engine ready for the afternoon service; I can assure you it is a lot longer than 10 minutes!!
And the ONLY person who can give you permission to enter a BOX is the signaller, permit or not!

For NR, this is simply a permit to stand on the 'trackside' of any temporary cordons/barriers set up to impede trespass onto the track by the general public. I would not be suggesting that NR suddenly lets people wander in and out of Bounds Green or Old Oak common.
Do you actually understand the numerous restrictions even NR staff have onto the numerous restrictions and definitions of what you seem to simply describe as "trackside"?
Fine, but you will still have to pay for the training, the hi-vis clothing required, the regular up-dating of your training, the pre-certification health testing, including sight and hearing.
Sorry but what you ask is just not possible!
 

EbbwJunction1

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A very good friend of mine has just (January) started a job at one of the major heritage lines in the UK (I won't say where).

He's been involved with the railway for many years, and is part of a group that owns a couple of locos based there, so he's very familiar with what happens. I asked him about the new job and what it entailed. Basically, he said, it's working out what needs to be done (for example, training), arranging courses for people to take, and then making sure that they take them - and, more importantly, keep their qualifications up to date.

I'm using training here as an example, as he did say it was a much wider job than that with lots of areas in which he had to do the things described above. Now, I don't know whether his is a new post, or whether he's been appointed to replace someone else who was already doing the work, but it does seem to me as if it's the kind of post that is essential in many walks of life, and it's good to see that at least one heritage railway is doing this.
 

pdeaves

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The same happens with photographers: they often become so engrossed in setting the camera up and getting the shot right that they become oblivious to what is happening behind them
For just one example, look up the bloke at Thurston who was so engrossed with filming the steam special he came within a gnat's whisker of having a 170 footstep take his head off.

Edit: here is one of many versions of the video, if anyone missed it:
 
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