• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GN Class 717

Status
Not open for further replies.

choochoochoo

Established Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
1,215
Yes. Drivers I have spoken to today are very confident that we'll see 717s in service next week.
As far as the 'second man' goes, it can be any safety critical person. That means that in theory it could be a dispatcher, but I suspect it'll just be drivers as I can't imagine ASLEF or GTR wanting dispatchers in the cab.
The second man will be in place on the NCL only.

Would it need to be a Green Cab Pass Holder ? PQA drivers can't let just anybody in the cab.

Or does the get out clause of 'anyone needed to keep your train running' apply in these circumstances ?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Fred26

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,107
Would it need to be a Green Cab Pass Holder ? PQA drivers can't let just anybody in the cab.

Or does the get out clause of 'anyone needed to keep your train running' apply in these circumstances ?

I honestly don't know. All I was told is that it could be anyone who is safety critical.
 

332 > 444

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2007
Messages
531
Location
London
I assume the 1800 Moorgate- WGC will have the rest of the diagram converted, ie 1659 Watton-at-stone - Moorgate as i cant see how ECS can get to Moorgate in peak and platform occupation at Moorgate can’t have it hanging around.
I know you have stated you only put up stuff you depot covers.
The am running is from one diagram (the trains are part of their own diagrams too) and the pm running is that same diagram, it leaves Hornsey as 5K02 at 4:34 and looking as it’s diagram no on each turn, it’s the same one and both morning and evening reliefs are by Welwyn drivers. I hope that makes sense as it just about makes sense for me!

Hitchin drivers aren’t all fully trained but are in the process but will be on the two week conversion course as none of them have touched 700s. In fact looking at their December diagrams a while back, they don’t touch 717s during this period.

I think the other forum has more info on what journeys these two units will be on and it will be reliable as it’s Class 377/5 (who no longer comes here).
 

daniel1234321

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2018
Messages
160
Here are the full diagrams of the 717s from Monday 25th:

HE51
5K02 05+32 Hornsey Depot to Finsbury Park
2K02 05.41 Finsbury Park to Moorgate
2F04 06.07 Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford
2J30 07.28 Stevenage to Moorgate via Hertford
2V33 08.45 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K50 09.38 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2F52 10.41 Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone
5J71 11+53 Watton-at-Stone to Watton-at-Stone via Langley Junction
2J71 12.11 Watton-at-Stone to Moorgate
2V73 13.20 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
5I00 14+14 Welwyn GC to Welwyn GC via Reverse Sidings
2K00 14.39 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2F02 15.40 Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone
5J27 16+40 Watton-at-Stone to Watton-at-Stone via Langley Junction
2J27 16.59 Watton-at-Stone to Moorgate
2V28 18.00 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K46 18.58 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2B48 19.55 Moorgate to Hertford North
2J63 21.00 Hertford North to Moorgate
2V65 22.00 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
5E65 22+58 Welwyn GC to Hornsey Depot

HE53
3B20 06+32 Hornsey Depot to Gordon Hill
2J20 07.11 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2G22 07.55 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
2J38 08.41 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2B40 09.25 Moorgate to Hertford North
2J57 10.30 Hertford North to Moorgate
2V59 11.30 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K72 12.28 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2B74 13.25 Moorgate to Hertford North
2J89 14.30 Hertford North to Moorgate
2V01 15.30 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K18 16.28 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2G25 17.25 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
2J37 18.12 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2G40 18.55 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
5E89 19+42 Gordon Hill to Hornsey Depot

Credit: 700101 on WNXX Forums.
 

MatthewRead

On Moderation
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
1,636
Location
West london
Here are the full diagrams of the 717s from Monday 25th:

HE51
5K02 05+32 Hornsey Depot to Finsbury Park
2K02 05.41 Finsbury Park to Moorgate
2F04 06.07 Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford
2J30 07.28 Stevenage to Moorgate via Hertford
2V33 08.45 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K50 09.38 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2F52 10.41 Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone
5J71 11+53 Watton-at-Stone to Watton-at-Stone via Langley Junction
2J71 12.11 Watton-at-Stone to Moorgate
2V73 13.20 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
5I00 14+14 Welwyn GC to Welwyn GC via Reverse Sidings
2K00 14.39 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2F02 15.40 Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone
5J27 16+40 Watton-at-Stone to Watton-at-Stone via Langley Junction
2J27 16.59 Watton-at-Stone to Moorgate
2V28 18.00 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K46 18.58 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2B48 19.55 Moorgate to Hertford North
2J63 21.00 Hertford North to Moorgate
2V65 22.00 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
5E65 22+58 Welwyn GC to Hornsey Depot

HE53
3B20 06+32 Hornsey Depot to Gordon Hill
2J20 07.11 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2G22 07.55 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
2J38 08.41 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2B40 09.25 Moorgate to Hertford North
2J57 10.30 Hertford North to Moorgate
2V59 11.30 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K72 12.28 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2B74 13.25 Moorgate to Hertford North
2J89 14.30 Hertford North to Moorgate
2V01 15.30 Moorgate to Welwyn GC
2K18 16.28 Welwyn GC to Moorgate
2G25 17.25 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
2J37 18.12 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2G40 18.55 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
5E89 19+42 Gordon Hill to Hornsey Depot

Credit: 700101 on WNXX Forums.
When will they start running on weekends?
 

daniel1234321

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2018
Messages
160
When will they start running on weekends?
The answer is not for a while, we're looking at 2 units in service weekdays only for a few weeks then 2 units entering service every 2 weeks, note however that there will be more 313s than 717s at the May Timetable Change. I believe there are 21 weekday diagrams, so a maximum of 10 will be in service by May.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,881
Location
Central Belt
The am running is from one diagram (the trains are part of their own diagrams too) and the pm running is that same diagram, it leaves Hornsey as 5K02 at 4:34 and looking as it’s diagram no on each turn, it’s the same one and both morning and evening reliefs are by Welwyn drivers. I hope that makes sense as it just about makes sense for me!

Hitchin drivers aren’t all fully trained but are in the process but will be on the two week conversion course as none of them have touched 700s. In fact looking at their December diagrams a while back, they don’t touch 717s during this period.

I think the other forum has more info on what journeys these two units will be on and it will be reliable as it’s Class 377/5 (who no longer comes here).

Thanks. Will take a little detour on the 1800 on Monday. Won’t be any worse than a class 700. ;)
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,881
Location
Central Belt
I reckon a good haulage bash would be the 18.00 to Drayton Park then cross platform for 2J37 inbound...?

True. Sample it in both directions. The 1800 isn’t normally that full. Be interesting how it feels on Monday. It has a few standees but nothing as bad as the morning peak.
 

Class315

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
327
The am running is from one diagram (the trains are part of their own diagrams too) and the pm running is that same diagram, it leaves Hornsey as 5K02 at 4:34 and looking as it’s diagram no on each turn, it’s the same one and both morning and evening reliefs are by Welwyn drivers. I hope that makes sense as it just about makes sense for me!

Hitchin drivers aren’t all fully trained but are in the process but will be on the two week conversion course as none of them have touched 700s. In fact looking at their December diagrams a while back, they don’t touch 717s during this period.

I think the other forum has more info on what journeys these two units will be on and it will be reliable as it’s Class 377/5 (who no longer comes here).

Just a few things which I think you may know, 452 works 5K02 off the yard at 05:32 for a 05:38 Arrival at the Park.
Also with C/W 51, One of ours relieves a WC driver at 21:38 works it in and out the hole, up to Welwyn and back to the depot.
I suspect either the 3 car carriage working will be bolstered to 6 or 717's not long after C/W 51 & 53 settle in.

On a semi-related topic I was turned via Canonbury last week & observed 717 marker boards in the bore.
 

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,487
Location
London
*CDM's maybe? I can't see no other way, some days there's barely anyone spare and it's only 3 depots that can go in the NCL now.





*Driver managers.
From what I've been told it'll be trainee drivers used, at least for now. A large amount of extra dispatch staff have been recruited for the NCL - not 100% whether they're actually going to be dispatching or not now though! Things seem incredibly fluid and to be changing by the day at the moment so anything could happen, but it's looking like Monday 25th will definitely be the first day of proper 717 service.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
From what I've been told it'll be trainee drivers used, at least for now. A large amount of extra dispatch staff have been recruited for the NCL - not 100% whether they're actually going to be dispatching or not now though! Things seem incredibly fluid and to be changing by the day at the moment so anything could happen, but it's looking like Monday 25th will definitely be the first day of proper 717 service.

I still say that the extra dispatch staff ought to be used as they can cover the blind spot near to the front of the cab plus have a far better view of the entire platform then any driver would from their position in the cab.

Besides the NCL already has station staff during the times the line is open as far as I am aware so makes sense to use them with any extra station staff to bolster their numbers if need be.

Having trainee or qualified drivers to second man the Class 717s in the NCL isn't the right answer as they don't have the same view of the train during the dispatch process that a dispatcher would, I would rather they concentrate on the traction courses/driving courses then use them on the NCL especially as this will no doubt impact on availability of train crew meaning cancelled trains due to no driver.
 

choochoochoo

Established Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
1,215
From what I've been told it'll be trainee drivers used, at least for now. A large amount of extra dispatch staff have been recruited for the NCL - not 100% whether they're actually going to be dispatching or not now though! Things seem incredibly fluid and to be changing by the day at the moment so anything could happen, but it's looking like Monday 25th will definitely be the first day of proper 717 service.

As a signal 'sighter' are you considered as conducting ? Even if it literally for the smallest parts of a route (leaving each station).

Will the trainee drivers all have been trained to sign 717 ? Or will drivers need to check and brief them on the operation/location of emergency equipment and GSM-R.

And are they going to be subject to the maximum 3 trips to Moorgate limit too ?

Reckon the union should've tried to make it a specific driver turn. Nice easy job that one. Three trips to Moorgate to signal sight. Especially on RDW.
 

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
2,930
Reckon the union should've tried to make it a specific driver turn. Nice easy job that one. Three trips to Moorgate to signal sight. Especially on RDW.

Really I think that the unions are trying to shed the image of trying to get cushy numbers for their members. Can you imagine if the press got wind of that? Rail Unions are about protecting the rights of workers and the safety of passengers, not making sure their members do as little work as possible.
 

choochoochoo

Established Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
1,215
Really I think that the unions are trying to shed the image of trying to get cushy numbers for their members. Can you imagine if the press got wind of that? Rail Unions are about protecting the rights of workers and the safety of passengers, not making sure their members do as little work as possible.
Fair point. But think the press would have a field day if they knew 'trainees' were responsible for a such a safety critical task. Obviously us in the industry know they are competent to carry it out, but if you told joe public trainees were being put in front of their trains to help drivers, I think you'd see a similar outcry to a cushy number story.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Reckon the union should've tried to make it a specific driver turn. Nice easy job that one. Three trips to Moorgate to signal sight. Especially on RDW.

I disagree, rather then make it a driver turn who doesn't have much of a view of the platform as the driver of the actual train in question they as in both unions and GTR should just have a agreement in place that during times of trains running that all trains are dispatched manually by a dispatcher end of.

Money doesn't come into it but the fact that the dispatcher would have a far better view of the platform then any driver speaks volumes.

That is something that is already done and has been done for a few years with stations that have issues with lighting across the GN so doing the same on the NCL isn't a new idea.
 

daniel1234321

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2018
Messages
160
In April's Modern Railways, it says "A full introduction of GTR's new Siemens-built Class 717s on Great Northern suburban services was thought to be imminent as Modern Railways went to press." It goes on to say that GTR hopes 5 will be in service by April and that they should all be in service by the summer.
 

daniel1234321

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2018
Messages
160
Now says on GN website (https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/717trains):

Passenger update 20 March 2019: Passengers have been asking when our new Class 717s will be in service.

We are busy testing and checking everything from software to cameras to lighting to signals with our partners at Network Rail, Rock Rail, ASLEF and Siemens. Testing continues this week and we expect to have a date for you soon.
 

whoosh

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,371
Having a second person in the cab on the secondman's side means that the right hand side signals can now be relayed by them to the Driver before (and during, if they revert to danger) departure.
It now negates the need for trains to stop far back from the signal as the Driver no longer needs a clear view of the signal when stopped at the normal stopping point, and the trains should also not now be subjected to any SDO nonsense on the NCL.
Because the train will stop at the normal stopping point at the headwall, there is no blind spot in front of the train which contains part of the platform that passengers could be too close to the edge of - so no need for barriers or dispatchers now either.

This is a short term arrangement until the signals are repositioned so the Driver can clearly see them at the stopping point, either by moving them further back, or moving them over to the left, or by installing a co-acting signal with a better view.
Once that's done then the second person (who is likely to be a Driver Manager, Trainer or a Testing & Commissioning Driver) will then not be required.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,754
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Having a second person in the cab on the secondman's side means that the right hand side signals can now be relayed by them to the Driver before (and during, if they revert to danger) departure.
It now negates the need for trains to stop far back from the signal as the Driver no longer needs a clear view of the signal when stopped at the normal stopping point, and the trains should also not now be subjected to any SDO nonsense on the NCL.
Because the train will stop at the normal stopping point at the headwall, there is no blind spot in front of the train which contains part of the platform that passengers could be too close to the edge of - so no need for barriers or dispatchers now either.

This is a short term arrangement until the signals are repositioned so the Driver can clearly see them at the stopping point, either by moving them further back, or moving them over to the left, or by installing a co-acting signal with a better view.
Once that's done then the second person (who is likely to be a Driver Manager, Trainer or a Testing & Commissioning Driver) will then not be required.

Any idea how long this setup is likely to last? Okay for a few diagrams, but it’s hard to see them having the resources to run anything like the full service with this method - even with an overtime fest!
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,881
Location
Central Belt
I see the SDO sign at Brookmans part still. But that station is hardly going to cause disruption if only 5 cars call there. (Northbound. Didn’t look southbound)

Most people avoid the rear coach anyway at this station to shorten the walk.
 

choochoochoo

Established Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
1,215
Interesting that at Stevenage the 717 is still going to get CD/RA (due to lighting issues) but the 700 is self dispatch.

Is the lighting at the door positions for 717s that different to those of a 700 ?
 

332 > 444

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2007
Messages
531
Location
London
Did you get the big thick brief in your pigeon hole? Not read it yet cos it's massive and I'm not reading all that whilst not at work. For anyone working 717 diagrams, we'll have plenty of questions to ask our "buddie" on our first trip (hopefully will be a manager or T&C driver!)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,050
Location
UK
Maybe your waistline, but otherwise should be fine!

(if you're confused, I've heard we're being offered free chocolates next week).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top