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MML Electrification: progress updates

edwin_m

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It would be very disappointing if the re-modelling at London Road was incompatible with whatever track profile is needed to take OLE under the bridge. That's not to say that the profile is there now - there might be some more work to do between London Road and the bridge itself and onwards into the platforms - and there's always the standard on OLE height in platforms to worry about.
 
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Grumbler

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Only if the train is wired as two half trains, like a 700. Normal situation on units with a roof 25 kV interconnection is that only one pantograph can be connected at a time, if they were cross connected things would go bang at neutral sections. So AFAICS on most trains you cannot generally switch pans “on the fly” to overcome clearance issues.
Make sure just the rear pan is up as you approach the neutral section. Once the front pan is clear of the neutral, lower the rear pan and raise the front one. Apart from hotel power going off for a few seconds, problem solved, surely?
BTW, if both sides of the neutral section were in phase, would it be much of a problem amyway?
 

gingertom

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Make sure just the rear pan is up as you approach the neutral section. Once the front pan is clear of the neutral, lower the rear pan and raise the front one. Apart from hotel power going off for a few seconds, problem solved, surely?
BTW, if both sides of the neutral section were in phase, would it be much of a problem amyway?
25kV is a niminal figure and varies according to load being drawn elsewhere and other factors, it could be a problem of there's a voltage difference between the sides. As there has to be a very low resistance to minimise losses a few volts would lead to many many amps flowing. IIRC similar issues exist on 3rd rail with the class 73 if the front and rear shoes bridge a gap where there's a difference. Higher voltages are needed for higher speeds so when approaching country sections the voltage is increased in steps. That means there could be a large amounts of amps flowing through the loco wiring which could cause serious damage.
 

DPWH

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I wonder if clearance could be increased by rebuilding the bridge with a thinner deck - The problem is there's a grade II listed building on top of the bridge, and London Road itself as the name suggests is a pretty important road into the city, so to keep the station's taxi rank looking beautiful from London Road, and to avoid traffic chaos, you would have to work around that.

Conversely lowering the track may mean lowering the platform. That would affect the buildings on the platform, but at least they're not listed.
 

gingertom

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I wonder if clearance could be increased by rebuilding the bridge with a thinner deck - The problem is there's a grade II listed building on top of the bridge, and London Road itself as the name suggests is a pretty important road into the city, so to keep the station's taxi rank looking beautiful from London Road, and to avoid traffic chaos, you would have to work around that.

Conversely lowering the track may mean lowering the platform. That would affect the buildings on the platform, but at least they're not listed.
Not sure if the memory is playing tricks again but I thought I read somewhere that there's a sewer running under the track at a height that precludes track lowering.
 

Roast Veg

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I think the most likely course of action will be sewer rerouting and track lowering, operating on the bridge is going to be a mammoth job and will cause far too much disruption to the whole city. The platform space is not used much past the footbridge steps (and is barricaded off on platforms 1 and 4, sort of), so it would be feasible to cut a length of it off instead of adjusting the whole station, assuming the track can rise and level off by the time it reaches the remaining platform. It might mean a month of running via Corby, even in that state.
 

edwin_m

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They've got enough bi-di that they ought to be able to keep a limited service through Leicester during any rebuilding, especially if they've done the four-tracking first.
 

themiller

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25kV is a niminal figure and varies according to load being drawn elsewhere and other factors, it could be a problem of there's a voltage difference between the sides. As there has to be a very low resistance to minimise losses a few volts would lead to many many amps flowing. IIRC similar issues exist on 3rd rail with the class 73 if the front and rear shoes bridge a gap where there's a difference. Higher voltages are needed for higher speeds so when approaching country sections the voltage is increased in steps. That means there could be a large amounts of amps flowing through the loco wiring which could cause serious damage.
If the contact wires either side of the neutral section under the bridge were to be electrically connected ‘by a jumper cable’, this problem wouldn’t occur.
 
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londonmidland

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As mentioned, the (return/feed?) wire has been put up between *insert location here* Wellingborough and Bedford. 94E17599-A8F5-4E16-8BBF-F4F5562F1B9A.jpeg
 

gingertom

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If the contact wires either side of the neutral section under the bridge were to be electrically connected ‘by a jumper cable’, this problem wouldn’t occur.
in a scenario of a train with 2 pantographs raised there would remain the issue of the pantograph at the neutral section being "live" from being connected through the train to the other pan which would be in contact with live OLE. The pan at the neutral section would not be electrically clear of the structure. If it was electrically clear there would be no need for it to be neutral under the bridge!
 

Grumbler

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in a scenario of a train with 2 pantographs raised there would remain the issue of the pantograph at the neutral section being "live" from being connected through the train to the other pan which would be in contact with live OLE. The pan at the neutral section would not be electrically clear of the structure. If it was electrically clear there would be no need for it to be neutral under the bridge!
Are pans on separate vehicles electrically connected? Don't they have their own transformers to prevent this?
 

Bald Rick

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Are pans on separate vehicles electrically connected? Don't they have their own transformers to prevent this?

Depends on the train. For example Pendolinos - yes connected electrically; Class 700s, no.

Also the number of pantographs does not equal the number of transformers.
 

Class 170101

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That'd be the Aerial Earth Wire. Return Current will be through an RSC in the cabling trough, I suspect - I don't think the MML's a major-enough route to warrant Auto-Transformer Feeding.

Doesn't ATF give you more power over a given distance compared to traditional feeding though?

If so wouldn't that reduce the number of feeder stations required?
 

gingertom

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Doesn't ATF give you more power over a given distance compared to traditional feeding though?

If so wouldn't that reduce the number of feeder stations required?
the planners will get this right. Let's hope the bean counters agree and fund the correct solution, with passive provision to upgrade at a later date if necessary. Rather they got it right first time though.
 

hwl

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Doesn't ATF give you more power over a given distance compared to traditional feeding though?

If so wouldn't that reduce the number of feeder stations required?
Agreed - Most new installation will be Autotransformer (better all round) and it also keeps the electricity transmission and distribution networks happier than traditional feeds (good for costs).
 

mwmbwls

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I am fascinated by the wealth of understanding displayed by the earlier contributors. Could I, however, ask the "Why has the Emperor got no clothes question". Given that the original intention was to electrify the whole of the route - was this bridge problem considered in detail then and if so what was the solution. It surely had to be more detailed than a vague instruction: " Insert Catenary here".
 

themiller

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I am fascinated by the wealth of understanding displayed by the earlier contributors. Could I, however, ask the "Why has the Emperor got no clothes question". Given that the original intention was to electrify the whole of the route - was this bridge problem considered in detail then and if so what was the solution. It surely had to be more detailed than a vague instruction: " Insert Catenary here".
It was probably a case of the government saying ‘please electrify this line’ and Network Rail saying’OK, we’ll start at Bedford and by the time we get to the difficult bits, the designers will have a solution’.
 

Bald Rick

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I am fascinated by the wealth of understanding displayed by the earlier contributors. Could I, however, ask the "Why has the Emperor got no clothes question". Given that the original intention was to electrify the whole of the route - was this bridge problem considered in detail then and if so what was the solution. It surely had to be more detailed than a vague instruction: " Insert Catenary here".

It was always known to be very difficult. AIUI there was an estimate for the bridge based on certain assumptions, along with a substantial item in the risk assessement which, essentially, said “x% probability we have to do something much more intrusive and expensive”.

Bear in mind that the DfT ‘decision’ to electrify the MML, along with the DfT announcement, happened a long, long time before any sort of detail was worked up for the project. A courageous decision as Sir
Humphrey would say.
 

InTheEastMids

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Agreed - Most new installation will be Autotransformer (better all round) and it also keeps the electricity transmission and distribution networks happier than traditional feeds (good for costs).

This appears to be the plan in terms of substations at least. I'm sure the acronyms like ATS, SATS etc are more meaningful to some others on here.
 

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Bald Rick

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This appears to be the plan in terms of substations at least. I'm sure the acronyms like ATS, SATS etc are more meaningful to some others on here.

Where you see an ‘F’, that means Feeder, and is where the grid supply comes in. The rest are effectively switching stations.
 

Elecman

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This appears to be the plan in terms of substations at least. I'm sure the acronyms like ATS, SATS etc are more meaningful to some others on here.

ATFS = Auto Transformer Feeder Station- where a National Grid Connection is made.
SATS = Sectioning Auto Transformer Station
MPATS = Mid Point Auto Transformer Station - located with a Neutral Section so that if a Feeder Station is list the section of track without supply can be connected to the adjacent feeder
ATS = Auto Transformer Station just a normal switching station.
 

WymoWanderer

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The fourth track reinstatement around Wymington, North Bedfordshire is now one continuous piece of track to the Souldrop tunnel North entrance.

Ballast is not yet complete but it is good to see the fourth track.
 

richieb1971

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The fourth track reinstatement around Wymington, North Bedfordshire is now one continuous piece of track to the Souldrop tunnel North entrance.

Ballast is not yet complete but it is good to see the fourth track.

Will be going tomorrow to have a look. Wonderful news.
 

Flying Phil

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North of Kettering, at Grendon, there do not seem to be any electrical "dangly bits" yet on the masts.DSCF0001.JPG
 

Hairy Bear

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" North of Kettering, at Grendon, there do not seem to be any electrical "dangly bits" yet on the masts. "
Pedantic mode : on....
It's called Glendon
Pedantic mode : off.

But if you keep going onto the Corby branch up towards the Oakley's, you'll find a length of overhead with catenary and contact wires up. It's coming !.
 

DPWH

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" North of Kettering, at Grendon, there do not seem to be any electrical "dangly bits" yet on the masts. "
Pedantic mode : on....
It's called Glendon
Pedantic mode : off.

I'll think you'll find actually in Japan...
 

Flying Phil

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Apologies to Glendon......I had been wandering through Northamptonshire, past Grendon Lakes, and my brain faded when typing! Here is a picture Northwards to make up for my error.DSCF0002.JPG
 

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