Class 350 3rd Rail capability?

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2019

Mikey C said:
How do the Networker plug doors work, as to me they open pretty quickly?

I *think* Networkers and anything deriving from them (e.g. 170s and Electrostars) have electric doors?

Edit: actually, I'm thinking of 323s, Networkers (with a Teutonic slam similar to the Desiro) are air powered I think.

It's not, as I said, true that air powered doors have to be slow. They are air powered on older Tube trains and all of classes 31x, 32x where x< 3, 15x where x<8 (158 are also air powered but are slow), 50x, most buses etc, and on none of those are they slow.

RailUK Forums

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Tube doors use air pressure and open/close quickly enough. It's just a slightly poor design.

Remember design differences, iam sure if those desiros had sliding doors to, they would operate quicker. I dont think ignoring one type of train because of something so little is pointless. They are decent modern trains

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Remember design differences, iam sure if those desiros had sliding doors to, they would operate quicker. I dont think ignoring one type of train because of something so little is pointless. They are decent modern trains

It's not "something little", though. If you put Class 350/1s on Merseyrail, say (assuming they'd fit) you would probably have to add a good five minutes at least to the Liverpool to Southport time, possibly even more. For a local stopping service, slow doors matter. This I think is why the 707s have sliding rather than plug doors, though you can do quick-moving plug doors as near enough every London bus has them.

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

The 350s have a lot of life left in them, are are still modern compared to other train stock?

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
The 350s have a lot of life left in them, are are still modern compared to other train stock?

Yes, they are excellent units, we love them here on the south WCML. But they are not suitable to local stopping services - even the all-stations Tring stoppers are more of a regional express due to the fast running and long distance between stations.

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's not "something little", though. If you put Class 350/1s on Merseyrail, say (assuming they'd fit) you would probably have to add a good five minutes at least to the Liverpool to Southport time, possibly even more. For a local stopping service, slow doors matter. This I think is why the 707s have sliding rather than plug doors, though you can do quick-moving plug doors as near enough every London bus has them.

You cant really compare a bus, which would have doors made from less dense more light materials shall we say to a train like the 350 on the WCML which doesnt stop nearly as often and are still most reliable in the UK
I think people would be more concerned about trains arriving on time and having actual space to sit than something such as whether a door opens quickly

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
You cant really compare a bus, which would have doors made from less dense more light materials shall we say to a train like the 350 on the WCML which doesnt stop nearly as often and are still most reliable in the UK
I think people would be more concerned about trains arriving on time and having actual space to sit than something such as whether a door opens quickly

Unless you are going to change the timetable, slow doors will make a train not run on time.

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

I doubt they will have a massive impact on LNR operation of the new timetable

Its going to be fine, plus trains with a plug doors like the turbo star and 323 are older compared to desiros from about ten or less years ago

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I doubt they will have a massive impact on LNR operation of the new timetable

Its going to be fine, plus trains with a plug doors like the turbo star and 323 are older compared to desiros from about ten or less years ago

It's not to do with the mechanism of the door. The 323s are well-known for having much faster doors than the Desiros, for instance, and local Wolverhampton-Walsall services run by Desiros have been known to lose time as a result (as they are based on the same timetable used back when it was all 323s).

Mag_seven · 21 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
The 323s are well-known for having much faster doors than the Desiros

I do notice that when I travel on a Desiro, particularly where the guard opens the doors, there is a noticeable delay on the doors opening after the train has come to stand in the platform.

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Mar 2019

Mag_seven said:
I do notice that when I travel on a Desiro, particularly where the guard opens the doors, there is a noticeable delay on the doors opening after the train has come to stand in the platform.

Certainly seems like the doors are rather reluctant to open, first opening only ever so slightly before rushing open

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Certainly seems like the doors are rather reluctant to open, first opening only ever so slightly before rushing open

At least they don't sound like they are wrenching the bodyside off in the manner of Class 158 doors

43096 · 21 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's not "something little", though. If you put Class 350/1s on Merseyrail, say (assuming they'd fit) you would probably have to add a good five minutes at least to the Liverpool to Southport time, possibly even more. For a local stopping service, slow doors matter. This I think is why the 707s have sliding rather than plug doors, though you can do quick-moving plug doors as near enough every London bus has them.

And a real world example: a 450 will lose time working a Reading-Waterloo service in comparison with both the timetable and a 458, to the extent of a couple of minutes typically between Reading and Staines. One other issue with the Desiros is that the external door buttons don’t (or didn’t) become live until the door release beeps had finished, so wasting more dwell time. The 458s have simultaneous door beeps and activation of the buttons.

Mikey C · 21 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
You cant really compare a bus, which would have doors made from less dense more light materials shall we say to a train like the 350 on the WCML which doesnt stop nearly as often and are still most reliable in the UK
I think people would be more concerned about trains arriving on time and having actual space to sit than something such as whether a door opens quickly

On busy inner London commuter routes boarding time is everything, hence why new trains have fewer seats, wider aisles, wider doors and massive vestibules.

I'd much rather travel on a 350 than say a 378 or 700 of course, but that's a separate issue...

87015 · 21 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
It's not to do with the mechanism of the door. The 323s are well-known for having much faster doors than the Desiros, for instance, and local Wolverhampton-Walsall services run by Desiros have been known to lose time as a result (as they are based on the same timetable used back when it was all 323s).

350s struggle to keep to the schedules on semi-fasts out of Euston despite many slacker overall timings than 321s but increased slow line speeds. The PM peak is a litany of sub threshold delays most days.

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
It's not to do with the mechanism of the door. The 323s are well-known for having much faster doors than the Desiros, for instance, and local Wolverhampton-Walsall services run by Desiros have been known to lose time as a result (as they are based on the same timetable used back when it was all 323s).

A route you would argue unsuitable for a 350 train. Good thing thats changing

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

Mikey C said:
On busy inner London commuter routes boarding time is everything, hence why new trains have fewer seats, wider aisles, wider doors and massive vestibules.

I'd much rather travel on a 350 than say a 378 or 700 of course, but that's a separate issue...

Rather be on a 350 than a 730, the cheap appearance of a aventra train isnt that appealing

RealTrains07 · 21 Mar 2019

I feel like with the new timetable and everything everyone has a vendetta against the desiro 350.

Getting rid of seats and making more space doesnt solve all problems, that space will fill up and people will start complaining and then we’re back to square 1

Darandio · 21 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I feel like with the new timetable and everything everyone has a vendetta against the desiro 350.1

Nope. They just look at things in more detail, certainly more than just loving a particular class of train.

Kite159 · 21 Mar 2019

Mikey C said:
On busy inner London commuter routes boarding time is everything, hence why new trains have fewer seats, wider aisles, wider doors and massive vestibules.

I'd much rather travel on a 350 than say a 378 or 700 of course, but that's a separate issue...

And in the case of 700s in the Thameslink core, automatically opening doors to save a couple seconds of dwell time.

RealTrains07 · 22 Mar 2019

What would be the ideal class of train to replace the networkers on SE if its not the 350/2.
I cant see much other current stock being a better or a suitable replacement?

Dstock7080 · 22 Mar 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Tube doors use air pressure and open/close quickly enough. It's just a slightly poor design.

S Stock have electric motor doors.

Metal_gee_man · 22 Mar 2019

RealTrains07 said:
What would be the ideal class of train to replace the networkers on SE if its not the 350/2.
I cant see much other current stock being a better or a suitable replacement?

The 707s are the right choice, they have extremely quick door opening, they could potentially be extended to 6 cars so to make a full 12 car train, they have great standing capacity, I love the lack of inter-carriage doors and all in all will probably be the easiest to introduce because Siemens will only need to supply individual coaches, they'll hopefully power the carriage and add a toilet jobs a good un!

BucksBones · 22 Mar 2019

I know the Desiro doors are inherently slow but is it not the case that most of the delay in opening the doors is the procedure the LNR guards have to go through? I’m sure SWR’s 450 doors are released much sooner after the train has come to a stop.

brad465 · 25 Mar 2019

Aside from the problems about 350s doing suburban services and dwell times, the numbers are not there to completely replace the Networker fleet; 87x 350s is in contrast to 147x 465s, all of 4-car, and that's before the 43x 466s of 2-car are added. Even combining 350s and 707s to replace them wouldn't be enough, unless more were ordered.

Bletchleyite · 25 Mar 2019

BucksBones said:
I know the Desiro doors are inherently slow but is it not the case that most of the delay in opening the doors is the procedure the LNR guards have to go through? I’m sure SWR’s 450 doors are released much sooner after the train has come to a stop.

I think so yes, the former are required to open the local/cab door, step out, check the train is correctly platformed and then release, whereas the latter can release without stepping out first if they know the train is platformed.

A load of new markings recently appeared on LNR platforms which I believe are intended to be for this purpose, so maybe an attempt is being made to speed things up and perhaps get rid of the "sloppy" sub-5-minute delays that afflict almost all peak time services.

RealTrains07 · 26 Mar 2019

Its a debatable flaw with all desiro units (excluding the newer city ones) however at this point is it possible to even add automatic door operation into the drivers cab?

Class 350 3rd Rail capability?

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member