EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Puffing Devil · 22 Mar 2019

Jonny said:
They are probably all bots.

Probably. Or maybe citizens who actually give a sh!t about the future of the country.

RailUK Forums

dosxuk · 22 Mar 2019

DanDaDriver said:
Do you want the answer?

You're not going to tell me it's free are you?

Jonny said:
They are probably all bots.

Interesting you say that when the consensus is that the rate of signups would make it very difficult for it to be done by bots.

I mean, it could be a significant proportion of people are p****d off at being ignored for so long that when Theresa says "I'm on your side, parliament isn't" they feel they have to make their voice heard somehow, or it could be non-russisn bots.

507021 · 22 Mar 2019

Jonny said:
They are probably all bots.

I doubt it very much.

507021 · 22 Mar 2019

EU leaders have agreed to delay Brexit:

to April 12th if the deal is rejected.
to May 22nd if the deal is approved.

bramling · 22 Mar 2019

kermit said:
Petition to ditch Article 50 looking quite likely to reach 4 million by tomorrow. Is there any sign of a similar level of support for No Deal?

Can I start a petition that all form of taxation is ditched?

That’s how meaningless a petition is.

dosxuk · 22 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Can I start a petition that all form of taxation is ditched?

That’s how meaningless a petition is.

Yes you can. It would probably be quite popular, and if we ran a referendum on it, would probably win.

It would be as implementable as Brexit though, and serves as a great example of how what individuals want can be a long way from what the state needs to support those individuals.

fowler9 · 22 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Can I start a petition that all form of taxation is ditched?

That’s how meaningless a petition is.

Would probably get a lot of support in a referendum as well. Would be as undeliverable as everyone's perfect Brexit as well.

swj99 · 22 Mar 2019

bramling said:
The left can kick and scream to “end austerity” all they like, but that doesn’t mean people will vote for it if they think it will be *them* paying the tax .........

The austerity argument is an interesting one, but if it was really working, where's all the money we've saved ?

507021 said:
EU leaders have agreed to delay Brexit:

to April 12th if the deal is rejected.

to May 22nd if the deal is approved.

The default position which has been mentioned by various commentators in the media, and by Rees Mogg etc, is that the UK is leaving on the 29th, with or without a deal, because that's what the legislation already enacted by parliament says.
In order to change this, parliament could repeal that legislation and revoke article 50, but that would require it to be voted through the commons and the lords.

To change the exit date would require a statutory instrument, referred to in the legislation (see below), which would need to be approved by both houses. There's also a solicitor proposing judicial review proceedings against the government if it attempts to delay brexit.

It could be an interesting week.

"Power to amend the definition of 'exit day'

14A statutory instrument containing regulations under section 20(4) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/schedule/7/enacted

and

20 (4) A Minister of the Crown may by regulations—

(a) amend the definition of “exit day” in subsection (1) to ensure that the day and time specified in the definition are the day and time that the Treaties are to cease to apply to the United Kingdom, and

(b) amend subsection (2) in consequence of any such amendment.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/section/20/enacted

LAWYER STARTS CASE TO BLOCK EXTENSION TO ARTICLE 50 NOTICE.

PRESS RELEASE

Robin Tilbrook, the Chairman of the English Democrats and a Solicitor, has started a case to block the UK Government from extending the Article 50 Notice or revoking it without having to get an Act of Parliament.

The Civil Procedure Rules protocol letter which Robin has sent to the Government is set out below. The Government had 21 days to respond, which means that the Court will be likely to rule that any attempt to extend was illegal and invalid after the 29th March and therefore when the UK will have already constitutionally left the EU. The letter is attached.

Robin Tilbrook said:- “I am seeking funding to raise the necessary money to bring this case, which is of vital importance to all those of us who want to see a proper full Brexit implemented, to give full effect to the Will of the English People, expressed in a nearly two million vote majority in the 2016 referendum.”

“The constitutional law set out in the Gina Millar case is, in my legal opinion, clear and unchallengeable that any attempt to extend the Article 50 Notice or to revoke it without a specific Act of Parliament will be invalid and unlawful. That would mean that if there has been a purported attempt to extend the Notice by agreement without an Act of Parliament that that would be invalid and therefore we would be out of the EU regardless of what the Government said we were.”

https://robintilbrook.blogspot.com/2019/03/lawyer-starts-case-to-block-extension.html

takno · 23 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Regardless of her speech, being cross about a speech is no way to treat such an important vote. If they were going to vote against because they don’t like the deal then fine, but it’s bad form for someone to be planning to vote for and then changing there mind on the back of a speech, no matter how ill-advised that speech may have been.

The point is that none of them *want* to vote for it - everyone recogises that it's a hopeless mess of a deal with something for everyone to hate. It's just that she's been able to wrangle some pity votes previous to the speech, as well as some from people who thought she might actually have had a cunning plan. It's become obvious that she really doesn't, and is just mean spirited, vain, self centred and stupid

Giugiaro · 23 Mar 2019

Jonny said:
They are probably all bots.

Yeah, and they are all called 0xDEADBEEF

swj99 · 23 Mar 2019

Jonny said:
They are probably all bots.

Interesting you should say that, because it won't be the first time ..............

An online petition calling for a second EU referendum has been hijacked by automated bots adding false signatures.

Posts on the 4chan message board indicated that some users had scripted programs to automatically sign the petition.

Thousands of signatures appeared to have come from people in Vatican City and Antarctica.

The House of Commons petitions committee said it had removed 77,000 signatures and was investigating.

&

"I voted 33,000 times"
The government's petitions website does not appear to have a system in place to detect bots - such as a "captcha" picture that asks a user to recognise letters and numbers in an image, a task which is more difficult to automate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technolo...ogqoGVEV2pbEVrOrxUxe2b3sNMQ0mqN1012VJHoyi59g0

kermit · 23 Mar 2019

As people may have deduced from the content of my other posts, I signed the petition calling for Article 50 to be withdrawn. In order to do so, I had to give my name, address, postcode and email, then respond to a link sent to my email, before my name was added. I don't think that's an easy process to defraud. Now I see that the Brexit press are digging up dirt on the author of the petition. I couldn't give two hoots about what she has said or done before, the point is that she has created a simple message, with which very many people agree. "Probably all bots" and "Yeah but she's a loony" are prime examples of the dark arts of manipulation and spin that have tainted Brexit from the start.

Groningen · 23 Mar 2019

Theresa May says according to the BBC that if she feels that a third vote is not successful than there will not be a third vote.

NoMorePacers · 23 Mar 2019

Groningen said:
Theresa May says according to the BBC that if she feels that a third vote is not successful than there will not be a third vote.

Depends on what she considers to be "not successful".

DarloRich · 23 Mar 2019

Jonny said:
They are probably all bots.

Bots with thier own independent email adress and bots that then press the confirm button? Also bots that break the website and allow the same email adress to be used more than once?

Aye aye. whatever.

433N · 23 Mar 2019

Groningen said:
Theresa May says according to the BBC that if she feels that a third vote is not successful than there will not be a third vote.

It's truly incredible to realise that it is 3 months since she first pulled it because of its unpopularity and she has done little to materially change it. She has just waited for MPs to change their minds, run down the clock and then ask for more time for them to change their minds.

Is she really now getting the message that they are not going to change their minds or playing another silly game that she'll inevitably lose, to our detriment ?

I don't know how somebody can be so deluded about their own ability, tbh. She's not drunk on power, she's completely paralytic.

Mvann · 23 Mar 2019

Howardh said:
We don't know as it's a secret vote! I would suspect most remainers vote in the EU elections, but there can't be any official figures.

No official figures but as the last turn out was 35.6%and they can't all be remainers as otherwise ukip wouldn't have any seats. Also a % would be Non Uk Eu nationals

furnessvale · 23 Mar 2019

DarloRich said:
Bots with thier own independent email adress and bots that then press the confirm button? Also bots that break the website and allow the same email adress to be used more than once?

Aye aye. whatever.

I regularly use the same e mail address more than once. For me and for my wife. Both uses are accepted. I always wonder how many times I could use it before it was detected?

kermit · 23 Mar 2019

furnessvale said:
I regularly use the same e mail address more than once. For me and for my wife. Both uses are accepted. I always wonder how many times I could use it before it was detected?

Really? You regularly sign petitions more than once in your own name on the petitions.uk website? Or you use the same email address for yourself and your wife to sign petitions, each in your own name?

Howardh · 23 Mar 2019

furnessvale said:
I regularly use the same e mail address more than once. For me and for my wife. Both uses are accepted. I always wonder how many times I could use it before it was detected?

Try it!
For what it's worth I reckon on-line polls/petitions on anything are a waste of time. Always believed in the strength of proper, postal letters to MP's, companies, organisations etc as (a) it starts to become expensive to send multiples so they are more likely to be "genuine" (b) more time-consuming than a quick e-mail and (c) in my eyes has more gravitas.
But what I will also add - yet again - that even if only half of the petition is genuine that is still a lot of votes where it really matters, an election.

kermit · 23 Mar 2019

Over 4 million now.....

Alteran Ancient · 23 Mar 2019

furnessvale said:
I regularly use the same e mail address more than once. For me and for my wife. Both uses are accepted. I always wonder how many times I could use it before it was detected?

This doesn't actually do anything. It may show as "accepted", but it won't be added to the final count. If you sign with different names or different postcodes but for the same email address, it won't be counted. You can inspect the source code of the petitions website here.

whhistle · 23 Mar 2019

I still fail to see why some people don't accept the referendum result.
What is so difficult to accept that the majority of the people of this country want to leave the EU.

Creating a petition is all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact the majority of the people of this country want to leave and so that is what should happen. Even if you personally think it is a wrong decision, that doesn't change the fact that more people want out than in.

Ianno87 · 23 Mar 2019

whhistle said:
I still fail to see why some people don't accept the referendum result.
What is so difficult to accept that the majority of the people of this country *wanted* to leave the EU.

Creating a petition is all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact the majority of the people of this country *wanted* to leave and so that is what should happen. Even if you personally think it is a wrong decision, that doesn't change the fact that more people *wanted* out than in.

Corrected to the past tense from 3 years ago for you.

Bantamzen · 23 Mar 2019

whhistle said:
I still fail to see why some people don't accept the referendum result.
What is so difficult to accept that the majority of the people of this country want to leave the EU.

Creating a petition is all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact the majority of the people of this country want to leave and so that is what should happen. Even if you personally think it is a wrong decision, that doesn't change the fact that more people want out than in.

It's quite simple really. You see the referendum debates did not deal with the realities of leaving the EU, but instead decended into a playground slanging match where both sides simply dug themselves in and deprived the public the kind of sensible and informed arguments for their respective positions. Furthermore the leave campaign, which was ultimately successful, failed to agree on a single, cohesive strategy thereby leaving a massively & ultimately incoherent policy, leaving all the details to the government whilst still expecting what it wanted, even though that was not clear. And anyone calling out the lack of cohesive direction was instantly labelled as negative.

Or in other words, the result of the referendum was a badly informed one, and now that we are facing the actual consequences of that, it may be prudent to rethink at least how we get on with it, if indeed we do. Which quite honestly I am no longer convinced we should.

kermit · 23 Mar 2019

Howardh said:
Try it!
For what it's worth I reckon on-line polls/petitions on anything are a waste of time. Always believed in the strength of proper, postal letters to MP's, companies, organisations etc as (a) it starts to become expensive to send multiples so they are more likely to be "genuine" (b) more time-consuming than a quick e-mail and (c) in my eyes has more gravitas.
But what I will also add - yet again - that even if only half of the petition is genuine that is still a lot of votes where it really matters, an election.

Sigh. So I tried it. And immediately got an email pointing out "Duplicate signature of petition". So I couldn't confirm the second signature, and all this talk of bots and people being able to sign multiple times is wibble.

furnessvale · 23 Mar 2019

Alteran Ancient said:
This doesn't actually do anything. It may show as "accepted", but it won't be added to the final count. If you sign with different names or different postcodes but for the same email address, it won't be counted. You can inspect the source code of the petitions website here.

Thanks. This has been pointed out to me in another forum. I now know that my wife's perfectly legitimate vote has been discounted from several petitions, without anyone bothering to tell me they had done so.

A further reason, if one were needed, that petitions are worthless. At least in the referendum she got one vote.

Mag_seven · 23 Mar 2019

whhistle said:
I still fail to see why some people don't accept the referendum result.

Because we were told if we voted leave things would get better - that is quite clearly not the case.

MidlandsChap · 23 Mar 2019

Ianno87 said:
Corrected to the past tense from 3 years ago for you.

Hardly leave voters fault it has taken so long.

MidlandsChap · 23 Mar 2019

Mag_seven said:
Because we were told if we voted leave things would get better - that is quite clearly not the case.

Correct me if I am wrong, but we have not left yet.

EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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