How quickly can Lothian go 100% Electric?

VioletEclipse · 16 Jan 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
Buses are considered to be largely commercial entities, even if the bus company is owned by the council like in the case of Edinburgh. The current legislation allows them to run buses until the end of time, but in return, they are supposed to be self-supporting. On the other hand, the railway is centrally planned and governed. It may be branded as "rail privatisation" to appear capitalist but broadly speaking the government pays the train companies to run the train service for them for a limited amount of time.

As I see it, Lothian refuse to buy anything other than long outdated, dirty and harmful diesel buses without government funding, even being reluctant to buy Hybrid buses, and they can afford to give all the ex London Gemini Twos private registrations and still have seemingly endless amounts of money (not endless I know, but large) to do seemingly whatever they want while keeping fares extremely low, so they have the budget to convert their current buses to electric, or replace them with electric buses, but not immediately. It would take a number of years. I understand that Electric buses are hugely more expensive to purchase than diesel buses, but they could (could, because it's unlikely, but possible nonetheless) convert their entire fleet (barring the 6 electric Streetairs) to pure electric with some government funding if they can't afford it alone.

I know this seems like random speculation, but I'm saying it isn't impossible, although I know it's unlikely.

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radamfi · 16 Jan 2019

VioletEclipse said:
with some government funding if they can't afford it alone.

That's the problem here. Even if the government was able and willing to pour money into this, it is politically questionable. Relatively small numbers of hybrid buses have been funded through green bus funding but wholesale fleet replacement is probably only possible through the replacement of deregulation by franchising or similar. Almost all major bus companies are against this and would call it "socialist", even though the very similar style of operation on the railway is considered very right-wing.

CM · 16 Jan 2019

VioletEclipse said:
Thanks I am not complaining about the government funding the Class 385s, partly why I'm here, I like trains. (ok, I am complaining because the class 314s are still serviceable AFAIK and building a whole new load of rolling stock then shipping them to the UK is a lot more environmentally damaging than keeping the class 314s in service, repairing them with parts from class 315s from London or from 314212 (now being broken up for spares) and so not replacing something that doesn't need replaced). Anyway, I do agree, the government are (for the current situation) verging on pathetic for the amount of green bus funding they are giving out to companies like Lothian. Although I do realise they are still doing a LOT better than numerous other governments I can think of, not mentioning any names though.

The 314s are being replaced for a reason, they, along with the 313s, 315s and 508s are 40 years old and life expired and DO need to be replaced. They've reached the end of their lives and parts for them will only become more scarce and the older they get then the more costly it's going to be to keep them going.

VioletEclipse · 16 Jan 2019

Colin M said:
The 314s are being replaced for a reason, they, along with the 313s, 315s and 508s are 40 years old and life expired and DO need to be replaced. They've reached the end of their lives and parts for them will only become more scarce and the older they get then the more costly it's going to be to keep them going.

Ok, I take back my point from earlier. I suppose everything eventually becomes too old to realistically keep going.

VioletEclipse · 16 Jan 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
That's the problem here. Even if the government was able and willing to pour money into this, it is politically questionable. Relatively small numbers of hybrid buses have been funded through green bus funding but wholesale fleet replacement is probably only possible through the replacement of deregulation by franchising or similar. Almost all major bus companies are against this and would call it "socialist", even though the very similar style of operation on the railway is considered very right-wing.

The wonderful ways of politics. I would say that it's time for companies and governments to stop name-calling electric buses ''socialist'' or whatnot, as frankly it gets us nowhere with funding what is increasingly more and more essential with the already limited time to stop the climate crisis becoming irreversible becoming smaller by the day.

I am too tired now to write any more vaguely constructive ish posts. so this is my last for today.

90019 · 17 Jan 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
What about the fully electric buses that operate in London? Don't they run for the whole day?

I don't know - I only know about our electric buses, which don't have the range to cover the majority of the running boards, some of which are out on the road for 18+ hours in a day.
There's only a handful of 1s and 24s that are out for a short enough time for the mileage to be low enough for the Streetairs to manage without running out of power.

VioletEclipse · 4 Feb 2019

After reading Lothian's BUS2020 strategy ( https://www.lothianbuses.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/190124-Bus2020-Strategy.pdf ) I don't think that they'll realistically manage to get rid of diesel powered buses by 2030, but at least they are investing in more electric buses, and that's good, but it could be better. Euro 6 bus engines are great compared to car engines and Euro <6 engines, it is true. Problem is that even Euro 6 engines do still burn fossil fuels which then cause harm to the environment, and there isn't all that much time left to stop the climate crisis from becoming irreversible (some say 50 years, some say 30, some say we only have 11 years and others say that we have already run out of time, it's not completely certain but it's scary anyway). Lothian are doing brilliantly with the funding that they have, but if they had some more (if the government would be willing...) then they could invest more in hydrogen or electric buses, and even possibly convert their current fleet to a fuel other than diesel.

I would like to point out that what they are doing is amazing, and better than so many other operators, and if more people would stop driving and get the bus, and they had more funding, then they could make it even better.

VioletEclipse · 2 Mar 2019

I know Lothian are stuck with what is financially and practically possible, but to help prevent the Climate Crisis becoming irreversible it would be best if they could convert the entire fleet to electric within a few months and have charging stations at most termini.

ericlesley · 2 Mar 2019

VioletEclipse said:
I know Lothian are stuck with what is financially and practically possible, but to help prevent the Climate Crisis becoming irreversible it would be best if they could convert the entire fleet to electric within a few months and have charging stations at most termini.

Have you seen there's a trial going on in Harrogate using this system? Volvo buses, but not sure who's supplying the charging gear.

And you're right, the tech is there now. Just needs the willpower and some funding.

VioletEclipse · 2 Mar 2019

ericlesley said:
Have you seen there's a trial going on in Harrogate using this system? Volvo buses, but not sure who's supplying the charging gear.

And you're right, the tech is there now. Just needs the willpower and some funding.

Ooh, yes, the Harrogate trial. It's great, but also really ironic how the electricity comes from a diesel generator.

ericlesley · 2 Mar 2019

VioletEclipse said:
Ooh, yes, the Harrogate trial. It's great, but also really ironic how the electricity comes from a diesel generator.

Think the diesel generator was temporary and they're on full grid electric now. Though, I could be wrong.

VioletEclipse · 23 Mar 2019

The best option for Lothian right now, as I see it, is as follows;

Install overhead electric charging systems at large terminal points (Ocean Terminal, Royal Infirmary, The Gyle etc).
Either alter the routes of some services or install charging systems at smaller termini as well.
Fit roof 'pantographs' as such (for charging) to the Streetairs, B5LHs, and Volvo 7900s that don't already have them.
Convert all buses to electric (barring 1-50, 284-289 and 551-594 as they already have electric engines and also 113-135 and 698-825 as they will be gone soon anyway). It would take a while but it is a lot simpler and a lot less harmful than buying new buses instead.
After this is done then Edinburgh's public transport would be a lot less environmentally harmful.

Is it realistic? Currently not, but it's pretty important that it gets done (or something similar) in my opinion.
Is it convenient? Not financially, but more funding for electric buses is something that needs to be done. Also there will be a lot of practical inconveniences, but still, better that than continuing to pollute the atmosphere with air and noise from diesel buses.

Mwanesh · 23 Mar 2019

I dont get all this electric debate.Recently i was in Congo to see how lithium is mined.What i saw there shocked me .Most people dont have an idea what devastation our electric goal is doing.Here in Europe we dont care about it because its in Africa.I am now a diesel fan.Unless we find a better alternative to lithium cells 5he future is bleak.

atraindriver · 23 Mar 2019

VioletEclipse · 23 Mar 2019

Mwanesh said:
I dont get all this electric debate.Recently i was in Congo to see how lithium is mined.What i saw there shocked me .Most people dont have an idea what devastation our electric goal is doing.Here in Europe we dont care about it because its in Africa.I am now a diesel fan.Unless we find a better alternative to lithium cells 5he future is bleak.

The future is bleak. I agree completely with you, after all we are in the Climate Crisis and the sixth mass extinction right now, although the latter is mainly caused by the former.

Anyway, I agree. Lithium mining is evil. The problem is that it's a lot less harmful than mining for oil which is then belched into the air as CO2 to fuel the rapidly increasing temperature rise, so while it's not great, it's the best option we have right now IMO

carlberry · 23 Mar 2019

Mwanesh said:
I dont get all this electric debate.Recently i was in Congo to see how lithium is mined.What i saw there shocked me .Most people dont have an idea what devastation our electric goal is doing.Here in Europe we dont care about it because its in Africa.I am now a diesel fan.Unless we find a better alternative to lithium cells 5he future is bleak.

The tar sands extraction in Canada is equally bad (even if conditions for the employees might be better). Nigeria's oil extraction isn't a bed of
roses for the area or people.

VioletEclipse · 23 Mar 2019

atraindriver said:
This.

Our holier-than-thou diesel-is-awful-we-have-to-replace-it-regardless-of-the-consequences-because-the-environment attitude is killing people today.
But, hey, they're only Africans so it seems nobody gives a flying foxtrot. Especially not those who shout the most about how we have to change right now.
Sorry, I'll get off my horse.

I see what you mean, but we currently simply can't find a better alternative that is also viable. The injustice of it is horrible, and the fact that the best option that we have here is going to harm loads of people in the short term is outrageous and completely messed up.

Sadly though, if we just keep going how it is then we're sentencing a huge proportion of life on earth to an early death, or extinction.

It's hard to be positive right now sadly

Zamracene749 · 23 Mar 2019

Are there any studies that compare the transmission losses of a trolley network against the power expended carrying onboard batteries around? Electric car Li-ion batteries come in at around 200kgs, so presumably for a bus you would expect 5 or ten times that. Trolley buses will still need an inverter, but modern power electronics are very light and efficient. Long cable runs of course lose power through heat etc. Just wondering which ones are the most efficient?

ericlesley · 24 Mar 2019

VioletEclipse said:
The best option for Lothian right now, as I see it, is as follows;

Install overhead electric charging systems at large terminal points (Ocean Terminal, Royal Infirmary, The Gyle etc).
Either alter the routes of some services or install charging systems at smaller termini as well.
Fit roof 'pantographs' as such (for charging) to the Streetairs, B5LHs, and Volvo 7900s that don't already have them.
Convert all buses to electric (barring 1-50, 284-289 and 551-594 as they already have electric engines and also 113-135 and 698-825 as they will be gone soon anyway). It would take a while but it is a lot simpler and a lot less harmful than buying new buses instead.
After this is done then Edinburgh's public transport would be a lot less environmentally harmful.

Is it realistic? Currently not, but it's pretty important that it gets done (or something similar) in my opinion.
Is it convenient? Not financially, but more funding for electric buses is something that needs to be done. Also there will be a lot of practical inconveniences, but still, better that than continuing to pollute the atmosphere with air and noise from diesel buses.

https://mobile.twitter.com/davidleeNZ/status/1109261591327854592

Seen this, from New Zealand? First time I've seen double deckers opportunity charging

VioletEclipse · 24 Mar 2019

beermaddavep said:
Are there any studies that compare the transmission losses of a trolley network against the power expended carrying onboard batteries around? Electric car Li-ion batteries come in at around 200kgs, so presumably for a bus you would expect 5 or ten times that. Trolley buses will still need an inverter, but modern power electronics are very light and efficient. Long cable runs of course lose power through heat etc. Just wondering which ones are the most efficient?

Now that is a really good point.

Honestly I think it might be easier and less harmful to install overhead wires on main roads instead of termini charging, but I haven't done much research so I'm not too sure.

It's true that avoiding large batteries is a preferable option.

Jordan Adam · 24 Mar 2019

Aberdeen's Hydrogen Project is probably the cleanest option i've seen, however at a vehicle cost and availability perspective it's not viable for operators yet.

VioletEclipse · 24 Mar 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Aberdeen's Hydrogen Project is probably the cleanest option i've seen, however at a vehicle cost and availability perspective it's not viable for operators yet.

Yeah it's really good. I think Hydrogen is as clean, if not cleaner, than BEBs, the problem being the lack of funding and filling stations.

I would have to do a bit more research into Hydrogen powered buses to be able to comment much more, but I intend on doing so soon.

Off topic, but congrats on becoming an Established Member!

507021 · 24 Mar 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Aberdeen's Hydrogen Project is probably the cleanest option i've seen, however at a vehicle cost and availability perspective it's not viable for operators yet.

Aberdeen will receive another five hydrogen buses after a successful joint bid for funding with Liverpool. The latter will receive 25 hydrogen Enviro400s.

Jordan Adam · 24 Mar 2019

507021 said:
Aberdeen will receive another five hydrogen buses after a successful joint bid for funding with Liverpool. The latter will receive 25 hydrogen Enviro400s.

It's actually meant to be 10 vehicles (Wright Streetdecks), however i did note a recent article states 5 which i assume is in error.

VioletEclipse said:
Yeah it's really good. I think Hydrogen is as clean, if not cleaner, than BEBs, the problem being the lack of funding and filling stations.

I would have to do a bit more research into Hydrogen powered buses to be able to comment much more, but I intend on doing so soon.

Off topic, but congrats on becoming an Established Member!

Indeed, it's much cleaner now that the power is coming from the new wind turbines just off the coast. The main issue is reliability, First struggle to get more than 1 Hydrogen out most days.

VioletEclipse · 24 Mar 2019

Jordan Adam said:
It's actually meant to be 10 vehicles (Wright Streetdecks), however i did note a recent article states 5 which i assume is in error.

Indeed, it's much cleaner now that the power is coming from the new wind turbines just off the coast. The main issue is reliability, First struggle to get more than 1 Hydrogen out most days.

Windmills. Yes. Lothian get their power off the grid which isn't very clean at all, but if it comes from windmills then that is so much cleaner! I wonder what it would take to make Lothian get their electricity from renewable sources?

As per reliability, that's not great news, but Hydrogen is still a relatively new way to power buses, so hopefully newer ones will be a bit more reliable.

Jordan Adam · 24 Mar 2019

VioletEclipse said:
Windmills. Yes. Lothian get their power off the grid which isn't very clean at all, but if it comes from windmills then that is so much cleaner! I wonder what it would take to make Lothian get their electricity from renewable sources?

As per reliability, that's not great news, but Hydrogen is still a relatively new way to power buses, so hopefully newer ones will be a bit more reliable.

In my view there's no point running "100% Electric" vehicles if the power is not coming from a renewable source. If you're running electric vehicles off the grid you're effectively taking the issue of pollution and moving it elsewhere.

Hydrogen is probably the best there is on offer, but it's not quite ready yet. Our Vanhools can match the range of a standard diesel bus, something electric simply cannot do!

VioletEclipse · 24 Mar 2019

Jordan Adam said:
In my view there's no point running "100% Electric" vehicles if the power is not coming from a renewable source. If you're running electric vehicles off the grid you're effectively taking the issue of pollution and moving it elsewhere.

Hydrogen is probably the best there is on offer, but it's not quite ready yet. Our Vanhools can match the range of a standard diesel bus, something electric simply cannot do!

It would keep the engineers busy if Lothian decided to convert their fleet to Hydrogen (remove and replace the engine, not the entire bus as it's so much less harmful), and range wouldn't be as much of a problem compared to electric buses.

I agree that having non-renewable electricity is hardly better than diesel, but how does one convince Lothian to change their electricity supply?

radamfi · 24 Mar 2019

Jordan Adam said:
In my view there's no point running "100% Electric" vehicles if the power is not coming from a renewable source. If you're running electric vehicles off the grid you're effectively taking the issue of pollution and moving it elsewhere.

The main reason for switching to electric vehicles is to reduce air pollution in urban areas, where most people live. The move to renewable sources of energy is primarily to reduce global carbon emissions.

507021 · 24 Mar 2019

Jordan Adam said:
It's actually meant to be 10 vehicles (Wright Streetdecks), however i did note a recent article states 5 which i assume is in error.

Ah right, thanks.

How quickly can Lothian go 100% Electric?

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