Historical tv dramas - 1st and 3rd class

BanburyBlue · 25 Mar 2019

I was watching an episode of Miss Marple or Poirot the other day (can't remember which), which showed a train pull into a station with 1st and 3rd class carriages. It made me think that whenever you see these types of programmes you tend to see either 1st class or 3rd class carriages. You never seem to see 2nd class carriages.

So did 2nd class actually exist?

And if it did, what was the differentiation in comfort between 1st, 2nd and 3rd class?

Ta.

RailUK Forums

hexagon789 · 25 Mar 2019

BanburyBlue said:
I was watching an episode of Miss Marple or Poirot the other day (can't remember which), which showed a train pull into a station with 1st and 3rd class carriages. It made me think that whenever you see these types of programmes you tend to see either 1st class or 3rd class carriages. You never seem to see 2nd class carriages.

So did 2nd class actually exist?

And if it did, what was the differentiation in comfort between 1st, 2nd and 3rd class?

Ta.

It used to be 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The Midland Railway was the first to abolish second class by abolishing third class, renaming second class third class (at third class fares), and reducing the cost of first class tickets to those of second.

Stealing such a march on its competitors led other companies to follow suit and I believe that by the time of the 1923 grouping all companies offered only 1st and 3rd except on boat trains to the Continent which retained three classes.

When Continental European railways abolished third class in 1956, BR renamed third class second class. Second Class was then renamed standard in the mid-1980s.

BanburyBlue · 25 Mar 2019

hexagon789 said:
It used to be 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The Midland Railway was the first to abolish second class by abolishing third class, renaming second class third class (at third class fares), and reducing the cost of first class tickets to those of second.

Stealing such a march on its competitors led other companies to follow suit and I believe that by the time of the 1923 grouping all companies offered only 1st and 3rd except on boat trains to the Continent which retained three classes.

When Continental European railways abolished third class in 1956, BR renamed third class second class. Second Class was then renamed standard in the mid-1980s.

thanks,

So how basic was the original 3rd class?

krus_aragon · 25 Mar 2019

The original third class was little more than being given an open waggon to stand it: if you were lucky you might get a bench to sit on. Parliament passed an act ( the Railway Regulation Act 1841) to introduce a minimum standard for passenger travel, the maximum price, and ensure that railway companies ran at least some trains with this standard of accommodation calling at every station each day.

This is the origin of the term Parliamentary Train, though nowadays the term is more usually applied to infrequent services operated to avoid the expense of getting a closure order for a station/line.

And whereas it is expedient to secure to the poorer Class of Travellers the Means of travelling by Railway at moderate Fares, and in Carriages in which they may be protected from the Weather;
...
all Passenger Railway Companies ... shall, by means of One Train at the least to travel along their Railway from one End to the other of each Trunk, Branch, or Junction Line belonging to or leased by them, so long as they shall continue to carry other Passengers over such Trunk, Branch, or Junction Line, once at the least each Way on every Week Day, except Christmas Day and Good Friday (such Exception not to extend to Scotland), provide for the Conveyance of Third Class Passengers to and from the terminal and other ordinary Passenger Stations of the Railway, under the Obligations contained in their several Acts of Parliament, and with the Immunities applicable by Law to Carriers of Passengers by Railway; and also under the following Conditions; (that is to say,)

Such Train shall start at an Hour to be from Time to Time fixed by the Directors, subject to the Approval of the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Plantations:

Such Trains shall travel at an average Rate of Speed not less than Twelve Miles an Hour for the ehole Distance travelled on the Railway, including Stoppages:

Such Train shall, if required, take up and set down Passengers at every Passenger Station which it shall pass on the Line:

The Carriages in which Passengers shall be conveyed by such Train shall be provided with Seats, and shall be protected from the Weather, in a Manner satisfactory to the

Lords of the said Committee:

The Fare or Charge for each Third Class Passenger by such Train shall not exceed One Penny for each Mile travelled:

Each passenger by such Train shall be allowed to take with him Half a Hundred Weight of Luggage, not being Merchandise or other Articles carried for Hire or Profit, without extra Charge;

...

edwin_m · 25 Mar 2019

Some useful information on what happened before and after the Railway Regulation Act 1844:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Regulation_Act_1844

The Railway Regulation Act 1844 was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom providing a minimum standard for rail passenger travel. It provided compulsory services at a price affordable to poorer people to enable them to travel to find work.
...

One train with provision for carrying third-class passengers, should run on every line, every day, in each direction, stopping at every station. (These are what were originally known as "Parliamentary Trains.")

The fare should be 1d. per mile.

Its average speed should not be less than 12 miles per hour (19 km/h).

Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

The term "Parliamentary Train" survives but now means something different, the running of a minimum service to avoid statutory proceedings to close a line.

I suspect, but I'm not sure (someone on here probably knows), that the requirement of this Act to provide for third-class passengers was the reason the companies abolished Second Class and upgraded Third instead of just abolishing Third.

hexagon789 said:
all companies offered only 1st and 3rd except on boat trains to the Continent which retained three classes.

When Continental European railways abolished third class in 1956, BR renamed third class second class. Second Class was then renamed standard in the mid-1980s.

If I recall correctly the early builds of BR Mk1 stock included some Seconds for boat trains.

hexagon789 · 25 Mar 2019

BanburyBlue said:
thanks,

So how basic was the original 3rd class?

Originally? Little more than goods wagons I believe. As mentioned above, parliament later legislated to improve matters.

edwin_m said:
I suspect, but I'm not sure (someone on here probably knows), that the requirement of this Act to provide for third-class passengers was the reason the companies abolished Second Class and upgraded Third instead of just abolishing Third.

Quite possibly, not sure myself.

edwin_m said:
If I recall correctly the early builds of BR Mk1 stock included some Seconds for boat trains

Yes it did. I think many became Second class restaurant cars by virtue of their 2+1 open seating.

etr221 · 25 Mar 2019

hexagon789 said:
It used to be 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The Midland Railway was the first to abolish second class by abolishing third class, renaming second class third class (at third class fares), and reducing the cost of first class tickets to those of second.

Stealing such a march on its competitors led other companies to follow suit and I believe that by the time of the 1923 grouping all companies offered only 1st and 3rd except on boat trains to the Continent which retained three classes.

The other change that led to the great decline in 2nd class was the admission of 3rd class passengers to all (or virtually all) trains - again initially on the Midland Railway. Previously the best trains had been 1st and 2nd class - afterwards those who didn't want to pay for 1st didn't suffer by going 3rd.

When Continental European railways abolished third class in 1956, BR renamed third class second class. Second Class was then renamed standard in the mid-1980s.

What changed in 1956 was a change from three classes to two. While in Britain 2nd class had gone except on boat trains, with 3rd improving to that standard, so in 1956 3rds were reclassified as 2nd, with the last remaining 'old' 2nds remaining as such, on the Continent pre 1956 - while countries differed - in many cases 'express' (as we would term them) trains were often 1st and 2nd only, with more local trains being 2nd and 3rd, and what happened in 1956 was a combination of 'old' 1st and 2nd into 1st, with 'old' 3rd becoming 2nd. And until recently, this heritage was to some extent still apparent.

Taunton · 25 Mar 2019

The Europeans certainly hung on to major expresses being 1st and 2nd only for a long time. The streamlined high speed diesels in Germany in the 1930s were very egalitarian - 2nd class only. When the TEEs came along in the 1950s they were 1st class only for a long time.

Just before the end of 2nd designation, BR built 15 Mk 1 Open Seconds in the mid-1950s for Southern Region boat trains, they had 2+1 seating but 8 bays. Strangely, in 1965 one batch of the first build of Mk 2 stock (by which time it was just 1st and 2nd) also had this seat arrangement, not as restaurant cars but as normal seating vehicles. 10 years later they had come onto routes like Liverpool to Edinburgh. These vehicles were all classified as SO, which is why normal 2+2 saloons have always been classified as TSO, Tourist Second Open, which I believe was originally an LNER designation.

delt1c · 25 Mar 2019

Taunton said:
The Europeans certainly hung on to major expresses being 1st and 2nd only for a long time. The streamlined high speed diesels in Germany in the 1930s were very egalitarian - 2nd class only. When the TEEs came along in the 1950s they were 1st class only for a long time.

Just before the end of 2nd designation, BR built 15 Mk 1 Open Seconds in the mid-1950s for Southern Region boat trains, they had 2+1 seating but 8 bays. Strangely, in 1965 one batch of the first build of Mk 2 stock (by which time it was just 1st and 2nd) also had this seat arrangement, not as restaurant cars but as normal seating vehicles. 10 years later they had come onto routes like Liverpool to Edinburgh. These vehicles were all classified as SO, which is why normal 2+2 saloons have always been classified as TSO, Tourist Second Open, which I believe was originally an LNER designation.

The Mk2 SO was built to be used with Restaurant cars thus allowing 48 seats for Diners ahgainst 42 if an FO was used, Strangley they soon fell into general usage and later further Mk1 FO were converted into Dining cars used with Mk 2 aircon stock on ECML and WCML

ChiefPlanner · 25 Mar 2019

Abraham+Solomon+-+Second+Class,+The+Parting.jpg

A very famous picture by the artist Solomon , - "The Departure" - copyright unknown , but a good representation of Victorian 2nd class.

The young lad , makes good , and in a following picture , is seen returning in 1st class.

For 3d class , I advise anyone to go the Birmingham Art Gallery , - free entry - to see the wonderful picture "To Brighton and Back for 3/6" .....open , but roofed carriages , probably a fair renditioning of the time with a mix of people getting some mobility in and a day out , which would have been impossible say 30 years earlier.

hexagon789 · 25 Mar 2019

etr221 said:
The other change that led to the great decline in 2nd class was the admission of 3rd class passengers to all (or virtually all) trains - again initially on the Midland Railway. Previously the best trains had been 1st and 2nd class - afterwards those who didn't want to pay for 1st didn't suffer by going 3rd.

What changed in 1956 was a change from three classes to two. While in Britain 2nd class had gone except on boat trains, with 3rd improving to that standard, so in 1956 3rds were reclassified as 2nd, with the last remaining 'old' 2nds remaining as such, on the Continent pre 1956 - while countries differed - in many cases 'express' (as we would term them) trains were often 1st and 2nd only, with more local trains being 2nd and 3rd, and what happened in 1956 was a combination of 'old' 1st and 2nd into 1st, with 'old' 3rd becoming 2nd. And until recently, this heritage was to some extent still apparent.

I forget where, but I'm sure some European country abolished First Class retaining only Second and Third.

Taunton said:
Strangely, in 1965 one batch of the first build of Mk 2 stock (by which time it was just 1st and 2nd) also had this seat arrangement, not as restaurant cars but as normal seating vehicles.

I'm fairly certain they ended up being used as restaurant cars with RB/RKB/RU vehicles on Euston-Glasgow and other WCML trains at some point. Possibly even into early air-con Mk2 days.

Taunton said:
These vehicles were all classified as SO, which is why normal 2+2 saloons have always been classified as TSO, Tourist Second Open, which I believe was originally an LNER designation.

It is of LNER origin, it was used to designated "Tourist" stock fitted with "bucket seats" of 2+2 arrangement.

Journeyman · 2 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
Stealing such a march on its competitors led other companies to follow suit and I believe that by the time of the 1923 grouping all companies offered only 1st and 3rd except on boat trains to the Continent which retained three classes.

Yes, most railway companies abandoned the three-class setup early in the 20th century. The LBSCR and LSWR both began abolition when they introduced electric trains in 1909 and 1914 respectively - three-class steam stock was replaced by two-class EMUs, and other routes quickly followed.

The three-class setup came about because of the Victorian obsession with class, and wanting to keep the proles away from their "betters". Most railways soon found that hardly anyone used second class, though.

Southern Railway/Region boat trains kept three classes right up to the 1956 abolition, and BR built a small batch of Mark 1 "second opens" - these had eight bay bodies like third-class vehicles, but with first class style 2+1 seating inside. Not sure if they were classified as firsts or seconds after 1956.

hexagon789 · 2 Apr 2019

Journeyman said:
Yes, most railway companies abandoned the three-class setup early in the 20th century. The LBSCR and LSWR both began abolition when they introduced electric trains in 1909 and 1914 respectively - three-class steam stock was replaced by two-class EMUs, and other routes quickly followed.

The three-class setup came about because of the Victorian obsession with class, and wanting to keep the proles away from their "betters". Most railways soon found that hardly anyone used second class, though.

Southern Railway/Region boat trains kept three classes right up to the 1956 abolition, and BR built a small batch of Mark 1 "second opens" - these had eight bay bodies like third-class vehicles, but with first class style 2+1 seating inside. Not sure if they were classified as firsts or seconds after 1956.

I'm sure they became Open Seconds (SO) and I think they were often used as fluid dining cars with RU/RBs etc.

Taunton · 2 Apr 2019

Journeyman said:
The three-class setup came about because of the Victorian obsession with class, and wanting to keep the proles away from their "betters". Most railways soon found that hardly anyone used second class, though.

A bit like First Class on quite a number of routes nowadays.

Tom Rolt wrote about the Talyllyn Railway in the 1950s. They had just one First Class coach, upholstered unlike the others, which in the latter days of private ownership had been reduced in markings to just one compartment. The old guard told Rolt that for years it had never had a proper First Class passenger except for the very occasional time when the doctor from Tywyn went up to the mine at the head of the line, and actually used it.

Historical tv dramas - 1st and 3rd class

BanburyBlue

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hexagon789

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BanburyBlue

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krus_aragon

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edwin_m

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hexagon789

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etr221

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Taunton

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delt1c

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ChiefPlanner

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hexagon789

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