Groupsave Refund - Refused by Ombudsman

danielson00 · 25 Mar 2019

The Ombundsman have refused my case too. I think I will call it a day. Reply below:

Good Afternoon,

I am writing to you as the Ombudsman that has been assigned to your case against Southern, concerning your journey from London to St Leonards Warrior Square on the 6th January.

I have considered the concerns you have raised within your application form regarding the terms and conditions of the GroupSave tickets you purchased, and that your tickets did not specify a group size. The consumer's contract with the Rail Service Provider ("RSP") is attached to terms and conditions, set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and the RSP's Passenger Charter. Having reviewed the evidence provided and the concerns you have raised, I have made a decision in the case.

You provide that:

"GroupSave gives you a 34% discount when you travel in a group of 3-9 adults".

You provide that you are therefore entitled to a refund on the 2 unused tickets as 3 adults were travelling on the day, as you were unable to find specific restrictions relating to refunds on GroupSave tickets. However, the terms and conditions of GroupSave tickets also states:

"Your whole group has to travel together on the same trains, even if the journey involves changing trains."

This means the validity of the ticket relies on all 5 passengers taking the same journey. When using GroupSave tickets the 34% discount is applied relative to the amount of passengers. You therefore received a 34% discount for tickets for 5 passengers, even if your tickets themselves did not specify a group size. The tickets were still purchased on the basis that 5 people would be travelling, and the terms and conditions of the ticket therefore apply on this basis. Travelling with 3 passengers on this ticket means the GroupSave tickets have not been used correctly which means you are therefore not eligible for a refund. By virtue of 3 people travelling on the ticket you therefore accepted the terms and conditions which applied to the GroupSave ticket that had been purchased for 5 people. If you wished to amend the number of people travelling, you may do so prior to travel in order to change the validity of the ticket.

I do appreciate that the handling of your complaint has fallen short of your expectations. However, following a review of all evidence presented by both parties, I conclude that the RSP has not acted incorrectly when calculating whether you are eligible for a refund, and I am unable to award compensation where the ticket was not used correctly as part of the planned journey. I will therefore be closing your case as I have no legal basis to award further. Please note the referral of your case to The Rail Ombudsman does not dissolve you of your statutory rights to pursue the claim through an alternative channel if you so wish.

Kind regards,

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 25 Mar 2019

That's interesting - that gives a stricter interpretation than even GTR were, and implies that the journey was not valid (i.e. could have been subject to PF or prosecution) because "the ticket was not used correctly".

Is the Ombudsman tasked with "can you find a way to uphold the TOC's view" rather than "giving the passenger the more favourable interpretation" as is more conventional?

yorkie · 25 Mar 2019

The Ombudsman doesn't seem much - if any - better than Transport Focus!

I had hoped for so much more.

You could ask the Ombudsman who should receive a complaint about the service they provide, and what the escalation procedure is.

infobleep · 25 Mar 2019

I wonder what other channels are available?

If the customer is meant to do this in advance of travelling, I think the TOCs should be obliged to make this clear.

ForTheLoveOf · 25 Mar 2019

infobleep said:
I wonder what other channels are available?

If the customer is meant to do this in advance of travelling, I think the TOCs should be obliged to make this clear.

What other channels? De facto, making a chargeback on the card transaction, or taking the matter to County Court. I would at least suggesting trying to former, even if you don't want to go to the lengths of the latter.

Paul Kelly · 25 Mar 2019

RSP is an unfortunate choice of abbreviation - I wonder what's wrong with TOC?!

When using GroupSave tickets the 34% discount is applied relative to the amount of passengers.

This sounds like a misunderstanding on the part of the ombudsman to me. It sounds like he's saying the 34% discount is applied to the total price of all the tickets. Which is wrong - it's applied separately to each individual ticket.

Paul Kelly · 25 Mar 2019

In a way, the ombudsman seems to have created a "straw man" argument by focusing on the requirement for the group of passengers to travel together, rather than the fact that the group only comprised 3 passengers on the day. This is seriously unimpressive...

maniacmartin · 25 Mar 2019

The ombudsman's interpretation of "Your whole group has to travel together on the same trains, even if the journey involves changing trains." is not the same as mine. 'Your whole group' in my mind refers to the 3-9 people that are travelling together.

furlong · 25 Mar 2019

This is a very significant decision. The Ombudsman seems to have decided that it is acceptable for a train company to issue tickets, the validity of which can be determined only by reference to information (in this case, the group size) held by the original retailer and no longer printed on the face of the ticket. In practical terms, unless the decision is overturned, companies now need to (1) provide a means for their frontline staff to look up this information; or (2) change their systems to print the group size on the tickets again like it used to be; or (3) update the ticket terms and conditions to replace this requirement with something practical (such as what most of us here incorrectly thought it meant).

robbeech · 25 Mar 2019

furlong said:
This is a very significant decision. The Ombudsman seems to have decided that it is acceptable for a train company to issue tickets, the validity of which can be determined only by reference to information (in this case, the group size) held by the original retailer and no longer printed on the face of the ticket. In practical terms, unless the decision is overturned, companies now need to (1) provide a means for their frontline staff to look up this information; or (2) change their systems to print the group size on the tickets again like it used to be; or (3) update the ticket terms and conditions to replace this requirement with something practical (such as what most of us here incorrectly thought it meant).

When you suggest that companies need to, i think we all know that they will not be doing that.

furlong · 25 Mar 2019

If you wished to amend the number of people travelling, you may do so prior to travel in order to change the validity of the ticket.

Note "ticket" is singular here. Anyone know about the "amendment" procedure to which the Ombudsman is referring? (Buying new and returning the old doesn't fit that phraseology.)

island · 25 Mar 2019

yorkie said:
You could ask the Ombudsman who should receive a complaint about the service they provide, and what the escalation procedure is.

I think it's important to distinguish dissatisfaction with the decision from dissatisfaction with the service.

GaryMcEwan · 25 Mar 2019

If it was over £100, Section 75 should cover you as both Southern and your card provider are jointly liable.

island · 25 Mar 2019

GaryMcEwan said:
If it was over £100, Section 75 should cover you as both Southern and your card provider are jointly liable.

Only if each individual ticket was over £100. I don't think any Southern off-peak tickets are that expensive.

Bletchleyite · 25 Mar 2019

maniacmartin said:
The ombudsman's interpretation of "Your whole group has to travel together on the same trains, even if the journey involves changing trains." is not the same as mine. 'Your whole group' in my mind refers to the 3-9 people that are travelling together.

Yes, I would agree with yours - and this is me, who often agrees with the TOC interpretation.

There is nothing in GroupSave that suggests there is any problem with anything other than travelling with a group of fewer than 3. The old GroupSave used to specify if it was a 3 or a 4, though - so could it be an outdated interpretation?

furlong · 25 Mar 2019

I think the key point of contention is this:

The tickets were still purchased on the basis that 5 people would be travelling

versus

The tickets were purchased on the basis that between 3 and 9 people would be travelling.

Perhaps the OP should ask the Ombudsman if they are able to expand on their reasoning. Was it made sufficiently clear during the purchase transaction that exactly 5 people must travel or else the ticket (singular!) would be invalid? The physical tickets do not distinguish between group size so even a ticket inspector currently has no immediate way to check their validity. I struggle to understand how such a term is enforceable. The company could easily have continued to include the group size on the ticket if it had wished to make it easy to enforce this, as used to be the case when it was 3 or 4.

talldave · 26 Mar 2019

We seem to have stumbled from a concern over whether refund of unused Groupsave tickets was possible to whether travelling with less people in the group than the purchase was made for makes the tickets of the entire group invalid.

Whilst I have sympathy for the OP's case, this latter issue is much more serious. With a large group there's always going to be a risk of dropouts. If the remaining ticketholders are deemed to be invalid then the product's utterly useless. Even with my cynical view of the rail industry I cannot believe this is what was intended.

Silverdale · 26 Mar 2019

talldave said:
If the remaining ticketholders are deemed to be invalid then the product's utterly useless.

Not totally useless. The Ombudsman's view is that the number of people travelling can be amended prior to travel "in order to change the validity of the ticket".

The mechanism isn't explained by the Ombudsman, but if it is that any individual ticket can be refunded (for a fee?) it would place the individual(s) concerned in the same position as any ordinary ticket holder who decides not to travel, except that they would have to claim the refund before the remaining ticket holders begin their journey.

ForTheLoveOf · 26 Mar 2019

talldave said:
We seem to have stumbled from a concern over whether refund of unused Groupsave tickets was possible to whether travelling with less people in the group than the purchase was made for makes the tickets of the entire group invalid.

Whilst I have sympathy for the OP's case, this latter issue is much more serious. With a large group there's always going to be a risk of dropouts. If the remaining ticketholders are deemed to be invalid then the product's utterly useless. Even with my cynical view of the rail industry I cannot believe this is what was intended.

I agree - especially since there is no revenue loss if the minimum group size is maintained - at worst, the dropouts will be able to get a refund. What's so wrong with that - and why are GroupSave tickets any different to ordinary Railcard discounted walk-up tickets. I don't think any TOC would dream of claiming that if you bought tickets for four adults with an Annual Gold Card discount that you couldn't get a refund on one of the tickets if the group size ended up being just three instead.

furlong · 26 Mar 2019

As the tickets were not valid for the journey made, they cannot have been used for it and presumably all 5 should now be submitted together for a refund? As the Ombudsman considers them to count as one ticket, does this mean only one admin fee can be charged? And the company might still want to ask for payment for the journey?

island · 26 Mar 2019

I have to say I have great difficulty understanding the Ombudsman’s logic on this.

Since the minimum number of passengers for the discount still travelled, refunding the remaining tickets should not be an issue at all. Had only two passengers travelled I would have had a different view.

infobleep · 26 Mar 2019

furlong said:
As the tickets were not valid for the journey made, they cannot have been used for it and presumably all 5 should now be submitted together for a refund? As the Ombudsman considers them to count as one ticket, does this mean only one admin fee can be charged? And the company might still want to ask for payment for the journey?

I like it.

If the OP put in a claim for said tickets, could they then charge them for traveling without a ticket and if so would that be a greater cost. I can't believe they'd want to take them to court over it.

CyrusWuff · 26 Mar 2019

A bit late now, but strictly speaking, what the OP SHOULD have done is approached the original retailer for a refund of ALL of the tickets and purchased new tickets for the "correct" number of passengers in the same transaction.

In line with KnowledgeBase, the retailer SHOULD NOT charge an Admin Fee for the refund in such circumstances.

In practice, where the original tickets were purchased from a Ticket Office or TVM, I'd expect the TOC that issued them to just refund the unused tickets (again with no admin fee) providing the request was made before travelling.

But that involves a TOC using common sense, which apparently doesn't apply!

Deerfold · 26 Mar 2019

CyrusWuff said:
A bit late now, but strictly speaking, what the OP SHOULD have done is approached the original retailer for a refund of ALL of the tickets and purchased new tickets for the "correct" number of passengers in the same transaction.

In line with KnowledgeBase, the retailer SHOULD NOT charge an Admin Fee for the refund in such circumstances.

In practice, where the original tickets were purchased from a Ticket Office or TVM, I'd expect the TOC that issued them to just refund the unused tickets (again with no admin fee) providing the request was made before travelling.

But that involves a TOC using common sense, which apparently doesn't apply!

And of course the OP might have done that if there was any indication in the public domain that that's what they're supposed to do.

Groupsave Refund - Refused by Ombudsman

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