How is fare evasion dealt with abroad compared to the UK?

axlecounter · 12 Feb 2019

AY1975 said:
I thought you had to buy before boarding on most if not all trains in Italy.

Italy also has ticket validators similar to those in France (or certainly did when I was last there 20 years ago - see my comment on France above) so standard Trenitalia tickets need to be validated before boarding.

On regional trains you can board without a ticket. You must look immediately for the guard and he’ll then sell you a ticket with a small surcharge (5€ IIRC). Failure to do so should get you a fine+ticket price but will most of the times get you the same as above...

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swt class 450 · 12 Feb 2019

Most countries seem quite relaxed with allowing passengers to just purchase when the Guard checks tickets rather than finding the Guard first. Maybe it is just foreigners that they are more lenient with. I have boarded and just waited for the Guard to come though on trains in, Austria, Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, and all over Eastern Europe, and they have always just happily sold me a ticket onboard with the normal surcharge and haven't given me any fine or penalty fare. But as i say maybe it is because i am a foreigner. I have also boarded compulsory reservation trains without a ticket or reservation (including TGV and Thalys trains) quite a few times and they have always just sold me one onboard with the normal surcharge.

Pakenhamtrain · 13 Feb 2019

Here in Melbourne you must have a valid ticket to ride. A valid ticket is a touched on Myki(a smart card) or a V/Line paper ticket for outside the Myki area(but includes myki zones). The only exception is within the free tram zone.
Authorized Officers patrol all 3 modes. On trains they go through with a portable reader or stand outside the barriers. Trams they do go through and stand at tram stops. Buses mainly at major interchange stops.

If you don't have a valid ticket you are issued a Report Of Non Compliance. The Department of Economic Development, Jobs, Transport and Resources then decides if you get a fine. A fine is $241.

AlexNL · 17 Feb 2019

In October 2017 I boarded a Trenitalia Regionale service at Magenta, heading for Milano Centrale. When I arrived at Magenta station, the ticket office was closed and the only TVM (a Trenord one) was broken. I immediately approached the Trenitalia guard and he calmly (very calmly, I musy say) sold me a ticket. I can't remember there being a surcharge. On the way back, I bought a ticket from a Trenitalia TVM without issues.

Do note that Trenitalia, just like SNCF, require tickets to be stamped prior to boarding. There are machines on the platform.

Bletchleyite · 17 Feb 2019

AlexNL said:
Do note that Trenitalia, just like SNCF, require tickets to be stamped prior to boarding. There are machines on the platform.

Unlike SNCF, though, this is only required for tickets for non-reserved services. You don't have to "composter" your Frecciarossa ticket, and nor would it even fit in the machine. Whereas in France you do have to do so with your TGV ticket, presumably to prevent a refund being applied for.

You get a further version of this in Switzerland, where the orange machines are ubiquitous but are used only for multi-journey tickets and the likes - but there is no signage at all other than a rough picture of one.

swt class 450 · 18 Feb 2019

I have never understood the point of having to stamp your tickets in a machine in France and Italy before boarding trains. It seems pointless. Why do they make you do this? What is the actual point of it?

paddington · 18 Feb 2019

user1234 said:
I have never understood the point of having to stamp your tickets in a machine in France and Italy before boarding trains. It seems pointless. Why do they make you do this? What is the actual point of it?

Bletchleyite said it could be to prevent applying for refunds.

It also prevents reuse of the ticket, as particularly for shorter journeys if the ticket is valid all day you could theoretically buy a return and travel back and forth multiple times.

Of course, if the ticket is for a specific train, it is pointless to do so, (not sure if you still need to do it)

I've just been to Italy and the system where you just show the ticket code for online purchases tied to a specific train is a lot easier than needing a physical ticket or even a barcode. But it also seems a bit pointless to have to do even that. If someone is sitting in a seat that shows as reserved on the system, and nobody is contesting the seat, then it means the train operator has been paid for that seat on that journey. (It doesn't even matter if the purchaser didn't turn up and it's someone else who didn't pay who is sitting there...)

I've only taken a train in Portugal once, but the conductor just said "paddington?", I said "Sim" and that was it.

SHD · 18 Feb 2019

Indeed, at least in France, the actual point of compostage, which was introduced in 1978, was to prevent the reuse of tickets which at that time typically had a validity of two months.
Boarding a train without stamping is legally considered as unwillingness to pay.

Until the 1990s, réservations (bookings tied to a specific train) were issued on a separate piece of ticketing stock.

It is true that stamping is less relevant for fares that are tied to a specific train and non-exchangeable or refundable.

Note that on TGV and Intercités services, e-ticketing is very much the norm now. There is technically no physical ticket anymore even if a trip reminder + barcode can be printed ad lib. Even if you have nothing to display your barcode/e-ticket number to the guard (you wanted to save paper and did not print the reminder, your phone's battery has died out, and you do not have a loyalty card), you can simply state your name and DOB (ID may be requested) and you will be identified in the passenger manifest.

Obviously no physical ticket means no stamping.

swt class 450 · 19 Feb 2019

Thanks for the info. I was wondering what the point of them was. So are France and Italy (and the other example in Switzerland that Bletchleyite gave) the only countries to use these on their mainline railways? Or are there any others as well?

Just another question. At stations around Paris and surrounding areas there are often two validators next to each other. One is the normal yellow one and the other is a silver one. What is the difference between the two of them? What is the silver one for?

SHD · 19 Feb 2019

user1234 said:
Thanks for the info. I was wondering what the point of them was. So are France and Italy (and the other example in Switzerland that Bletchleyite gave) the only countries to use these on their mainline railways? Or are there any others as well?

Just another question. At stations around Paris and surrounding areas there are often two validators next to each other. One is the normal yellow one and the other is a silver one. What is the difference between the two of them? What is the silver one for?

Yellow validators are intended for “grandes lignes” or TER trains for destinations beyond Île de France, with tickets printed on IATA-sized stock.

Silver validators are intended for suburban services (destinations within Île de France), with tickets printed on smaller carnet stock. They are indeed found at stations/platforms where there are no barriers and where suburban or outer suburban services stop.

AlexNL · 19 Feb 2019

The Netherlands had validation machines as well, prior to the nationwide roll-out of the OV-chipkaart smart card. They have been removed since.

Mwanesh · 20 Feb 2019

I remember one time when i was travelling in Southern Africa .Zimbabwe in particular.There was this group that had sneaked in with no tickets.When we got to Harare Central they all scuppered and 3 were caught.All belongings were taken away and their punishment was either clean carriages or handover to the cops.They all opted for the cleaning bit because the cops can be brutal .

Mag_seven · 28 Feb 2019

I'm currently in Paris and I've seen loads of people "jumping" the entrance barriers on the metro - is there a culture of fare evasion in Paris?

sheff1 · 28 Feb 2019

Mag_seven said:
I'm currently in Paris and I've seen loads of people "jumping" the entrance barriers on the metro - is there a culture of fare evasion in Paris?

Yes
..

CC 72100 · 1 Mar 2019

Mag_seven said:
I'm currently in Paris and I've seen loads of people "jumping" the entrance barriers on the metro - is there a culture of fare evasion in Paris?

Having lived there... Yes x100!

SHD · 1 Mar 2019

Having been living there for 30+ years... Yes, unfortunately

AlexNL · 4 Mar 2019

Tailgating at barriers happens a lot in Lyon as well.

geoffk · 4 Mar 2019

LesS said:
The system in Australia varies from Sate to Sate and City to City.
For Sydney:
The very strict rule is that you MUST have a valid ticket before boarding, either train or bus. A valid ticket is either and OPAL card (like Oyster) which has been tapped on or a single trip ticket obtained from a TVM. No tap on means no valid ticket. On train ticket checks are very frequent. The fine is an Instant A$200. Recently I have noticed that details have been taken electronically meaning that a mailed document must follow. No money is handled on the train.
Sometimes interesting ticket check practices occur. A few years ago I tapped on at Central and on the approach to the train a team of ticket staff were checking all tickets. On several of the distant lines with few services ticket checks seem to be rare.
On another occasion I was overtime on my trip when a ticket check occurred. Without any suspicious circumstance they did not look further and the overtime was not detected. Had they read the card details they would have found it. Technically I believe that this would be an invalid ticket once past the time limit.

The systems in other cities varies and I am not familiar with them.

I spent two weeks in Australia in 2009 (based in Sydney and Melbourne). The extensive local rail networks in both cities were used en route to our trips to steam railways and on free days, always with a day ticket. Most of the larger stations in both cities had automatic ticket gates, but on-train ticket checks were notable by their absence, except on one occasion in Melbourne (my notes say). I can't remember what happened on Melbourne trams. Maybe things have changed since then.

LesS · 9 Mar 2019

geoffk said:
I spent two weeks in Australia in 2009 (based in Sydney and Melbourne). The extensive local rail networks in both cities were used en route to our trips to steam railways and on free days, always with a day ticket. Most of the larger stations in both cities had automatic ticket gates, but on-train ticket checks were notable by their absence, except on one occasion in Melbourne (my notes say). I can't remember what happened on Melbourne trams. Maybe things have changed since then.

Much has changed in the last 10 years. Day tickets are no longer issued in Sydney. You must have an OPAL card. Fares are charged on distance and peak/off peak times. There is a daily cap and half fare on Sundays provided there are enough paid fares during the preceding week. Ticket checks are regular on most routes. No tap on and you get a $200 fine.

AY1975 · 26 Mar 2019

SHD said:
Yellow validators are intended for “grandes lignes” or TER trains for destinations beyond Île de France, with tickets printed on IATA-sized stock.

Silver validators are intended for suburban services (destinations within Île de France), with tickets printed on smaller carnet stock. They are indeed found at stations/platforms where there are no barriers and where suburban or outer suburban services stop.

The silver validators at the Gare du Nord look just like the old-style orange ones used by SNCF until the early 2000s, except that they are silver instead of orange.

AY1975 · 26 Mar 2019

Mag_seven said:
I'm currently in Paris and I've seen loads of people "jumping" the entrance barriers on the metro - is there a culture of fare evasion in Paris?

You also often see fare dodgers trying to sneak in through the exit doors at metro stations (you don't need a ticket to operate these on the metro, but you are only supposed to be able to get out, not in, through the exit doors. You do need a ticket to exit the RER, though).

Ticket inspectors sometimes man the exit doors to deter fare dodgers, so you still need to keep your ticket until you have exited the station.

James James · 26 Mar 2019

swt class 450 said:
• Switzerland:
· Intercity Trains: If you don't have a ticket then the Guard will simply sell you one onboard. There is a surcharge of 10.00CHF if you boarded at a station with a ticket office or ticket machine but there is no surcharge if you boarded at a station without a ticket office or ticket machine or they were closed or not working. If you refuse to pay then they will just make you get off the train.
· Regional and Suburban Trains: A penalty fare system apples. If you don't have a valid ticket and an RPI boards then you will have to pay a penalty fare of 90.00CHF or 130.00CHF or 160.00CHF (depending on the circumstances) total.

Your information is dangerous and many years out of date.

You are obliged to purchase tickets in advance for all trains nowadays. (There are only a few exceptions, e.g. the Rigi train lets you buy on board if not boarding at the terminus.) Initial fine would be CHF 100. They can be lenient in some cases (tourists on a long distance train), but in general they will apply the fine. But: things like class upgrades CAN be purchased on board (possibly also change of route?). This only applies for long-distance (IR/IC) trains with conductors. For local trains (RE/S) there is no leniency, but ticket checks are very rare.

Many people nowadays will buy tickets on their phones. The letter of the law is that the ticket must be purchased before departure time. There are cases where people have purchased a minute or two after departure - conductors are generally (but not always) lenient.

Police can and do get called if you refuse to pay the fine / furnish identification / etc, and this kind of situation has made the news in the past.

KMS1992 · 12 Apr 2019

I'm just back from a week in Malaga and touring Andalusia. Considering you have to go through airport style security at the main train stations on this line, fare evasion seems practically impossible! I had my ticket checked before, during and after security checkpoints in Malaga, Cordoba and Seville. Furthermore, they were checked on each service.

dutchflyer · 24 Apr 2019

some notes:
@paddington; NOT checking at all (like in airplanes-but also without any check-in) is practised by both RegioJet and LEO in CZ+SK. They also know exactly who has not paid yet-yes, they do come around for that! A quirk is that they also do not check if you indeed qualify for a discount (like now 75% for junior/senior in CZ).
General:
you brits seem to forget that in many countries its STATE railways with state-set tariffs-it may also mean that cheating is regarded the same way as cheating with taxes-and with the same penalties for it!
But in general my impression is, that conductors with some experience know their customers-they also want to avoid conflicts and send those suspected away. Here in NL there are wide-spread opinions on NS-fora (mostly from the best paying 1st class season holders) that NS-staff talks very loudly in the silent coupë and always on what lines you have to be vigilant and who are the cheaters and those to avoid. After that and if there still is time about how bad the company is and how badly they treat their staff.
But no-not all railways staff is like that.

alex397 · 26 Apr 2019

While travelling on an ÖBB Intercity today, a team of 2 conductors came through. One person didn't have a ticket, and didn't have any money for the fine. The conductor's reaction, in English, was 'get off the (expletive) train now'. Once we reached the next station, he refused to move, so they pulled him up and he eventually it off.

A few passengers glanced over, but it didn't seem like anything unusual to most!

I don't have any sympathy at all, but I was surprised to see conductors swearing and using physical contact, simply because that would be very unlikely to happen in the UK. The passenger wasn't aggressive either, just very non-compliant.

It certainly made me check for my ticket quickly!

duesselmartin · 27 Apr 2019

alex397 said:
While travelling on an ÖBB Intercity today, a team of 2 conductors came through. One person didn't have a ticket, and didn't have any money for the fine. The conductor's reaction, in English, was 'get off the (expletive) train now'. Once we reached the next station, he refused to move, so they pulled him up and he eventually it off.

A few passengers glanced over, but it didn't seem like anything unusual to most!

I don't have any sympathy at all, but I was surprised to see conductors swearing and using physical contact, simply because that would be very unlikely to happen in the UK. The passenger wasn't aggressive either, just very non-compliant.

It certainly made me check for my ticket quickly!

Physical contact ist unusual. Usually the police ist called for that.

How is fare evasion dealt with abroad compared to the UK?

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