Court finds Govia's First Class service to be insufficiently distinguishable from Standard

Failed Unit said:

It doesn’t help that the CIS on the front section still states that this is reserved for 1st class ticket holders - even when the train doesn’t advertise first in the timetable.

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Same goes for the Rainham Thameslink trains which I'm 99% sure are entirely declassified - at least last time I looked the only trains with First Class on the line from London Bridge to Dartford via Greenwich is like one random Southeastern train on a Saturday morning going into London - which you can't even buy a first class ticket for. Not great but generally its a nice secret to have not be a very known one - although a lot of people sit or stand there anyway so it doesn't really help during the peaks!

My rule for first class is that when its like that Southern thing where its the same as standard class (the old Scotrail first class that they had used to be similar; I've not had a chance to have a look on the 385s or the HSTs so that might have changed) then I'd never pay the premium unless it was like £1.50 extra on an advance ticket without reservations or something - I paid First Class on Waterloo-Portsmouth for that much extra and felt that it was entirely worth the small premium: nicer seat, was segregated off with a door and it was very quiet and I had a nice journey. It was a train that they've done up though and on the non-refurbished ones I don't think that its quite as big an upgrade. Wouldn't pay the walk-up premium for it though; far too much more! Its something that I always look up the prices for when I book trips since if the premium is very little or even non-existent (had first class come up as cheaper than standard before!) then even in a situation where its not much of an upgrade its worthwhile, just in case.

pedr said:

It's also entirely rational for a train company to decide that it is not worth spending time and money on defending a claim for £60 regardless of the merits.

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I agree with this, but when a default judgment is issued, does that also involve court costs being issued against the defaultee? If so, it doesn't seem rational to allow the case to get that far in the first place if you aren't going to defend it.

Mag_seven said:

I was on some Belgian units a couple of weeks back and there wasn't even an antimacassar!

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There used to be much more difference. In the old 1960/70s units it was benches in second and sofas in first. In the modern double decker hauled stock the seats are the same but have softer material and I beleive there is carpet in first. I've never looked in first on the Desiro units.

I paid the very reasonable extra for 1st on a double decker in the Netherlands recently but had to move to standard as I was quite literally sliding off the seat in 1st. No idea why, must hace just been an unfortunate meeting of my body shape and the seat.

The new Gatwick Express trains are the ones that really get me. Absolutely no justification for calling that 1st class. I hear arguments with the conductor almost every time I am on the service, either people who didn't realise they were sat in 1st class or even more amusingly people refusing to believe that the relevant section is 1st class. You can't designate a premium area on a service that you pay a premium for in the first place, fill it with the worst seats on the network and expect not to be ridiculed.

I’ve always thought first class on a lot of southern trains is rubbish. They should have at least put a separate door devising standard/first and plusher Seats!

Stigy said:

I’ve always thought first class on a lot of southern trains is rubbish. They should have at least put a separate door devising standard/first and plusher Seats!

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I'd say the only trains on Southern where it's worth forking out are the 171s on the Uckfield line. 2+1 fairly comfortable seats, in a closed-off area. On the Electrostars, it's totally not worth the money.

modernrail said:

The new Gatwick Express trains are the ones that really get me. Absolutely no justification for calling that 1st class.

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Absolutely no justification for using Gatwick Express in the first place!

IceAgeComing said:

My rule for first class is that when its like that Southern thing where its the same as standard class (the old Scotrail first class that they had used to be similar; I've not had a chance to have a look on the 385s or the HSTs so that might have changed) then I'd never pay the premium unless it was like £1.50 extra on an advance ticket without reservations or something - I paid First Class on Waterloo-Portsmouth for that much extra and felt that it was entirely worth the small premium: nicer seat, was segregated off with a door and it was very quiet and I had a nice journey. It was a train that they've done up though and on the non-refurbished ones I don't think that its quite as big an upgrade. Wouldn't pay the walk-up premium for it though; far too much more! Its something that I always look up the prices for when I book trips since if the premium is very little or even non-existent (had first class come up as cheaper than standard before!) then even in a situation where its not much of an upgrade its worthwhile, just in case.

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I think you're referring to the old first class area in Scotrail's 158s - that's all gone now. ScotRail First Class in 170s and 385s is 2+1 and more comfortable and spacious than Standard. By all accounts, it's really rather good on ScotRail's HSTs, but good luck actually travelling on one as things stand at the moment.

Generally I agree, the price I'm willing to pay for first class depends on what I'm likely to get, and at the very least I expect a nicer seat, a bit more space and less noise and crowds than Standard. If there's no guarantee I'll get that, I won't fork out for it.

Just to say, I know Dave Lloyd so I've sent him a link to this thread. He might pop by to comment..!

I'm with him though; a bit of tissue on the back of a seat aint worth a premium. As someone said earlier, First Class on a 317 isn't of the same standard as an IC125 is it?

J-Rod said:

Just to say, I know Dave Lloyd so I've sent him a link to this thread. He might pop by to comment..!

I'm with him though; a bit of tissue on the back of a seat aint worth a premium. As someone said earlier, First Class on a 317 isn't of the same standard as an IC125 is it?

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Interestingly, in a Class 319 it is really very good - 2+1 and nice seats. The only units on the south WCML (other than VT) where it's worth the cash.

J-Rod said:

I'm with him though; a bit of tissue on the back of a seat aint worth a premium. As someone said earlier, First Class on a 317 isn't of the same standard as an IC125 is it?

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It does vary enormously, and this annoys some people greatly. Many moons ago, I worked for the old Thames Trains franchise, and someone with a first class return ticket used a Great Western HST on their outward journey followed by a TT Class 165 on their return. Needless to say, they were somewhat surprised by how much less salubrious it was, and submitted a stiffly-worded complaint.

That said, Standard on a 165 is somewhat less pleasant than it is on an HST too!

Yeah, on the older stock it's not too shabby... personally, I wouldn't cough up but then, I'm tight.

As an aside, I ended up on one of the rare GA 317s back to Lynn the other day. After just getting off a 387, the seat was about a million times comfier even in standard!

Stigy said:

I’ve always thought first class on a lot of southern trains is rubbish. They should have at least put a separate door devising standard/first and plusher Seats!

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The problem is how variable it is. On a 377/4 unit with a dividing door, power sockets and so on, you might feel it’s OK to pay a few quid extra, but you’re unlikely to be able to specify with any certainly that you’ll get such a unit.

(Dividing doors obviously tend to make it marginally less likely to be invaded by people with invalid tickets, who are also usually generally unobservant or ignorant of complying with any other reasonable rules about passenger comfort - although fare evasion in First Class across all the relevant Southern routes and units has been a longstanding issue for many years.)

Journeyman said:

I'd say the only trains on Southern where it's worth forking out are the 171s on the Uckfield line. 2+1 fairly comfortable seats, in a closed-off area. On the Electrostars, it's totally not worth the money.

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It’s generally a reasonable area to travel in, although unfortunately most of the 171s are now in need of a deep clean and refurbishment, and the First compartments are fairly heavily used and thus no exception. Part of the benefit on 171s is that you don’t get anyone walking through First, especially as there’s no gangway connection, whereas the aisles in Standard are very narrow so somebody will inevitably shove past about 50% of those passengers at some point in their journeys.

tsr said:

It’s generally a reasonable area to travel in, although unfortunately most of the 171s are now in need of a deep clean and refurbishment, and the First compartments are fairly heavily used and thus no exception. Part of the benefit on 171s is that you don’t get anyone walking through First, especially as there’s no gangway connection, whereas the aisles in Standard are very narrow so somebody will inevitably shove past about 50% of those passengers at some point in their journeys.

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I only travel in First class if it is declassified and no seats elsewhere as I dont like it. Yes the seats are bigger, wider etc but you are right over the wheels. Much smoother ride in the centre of the carriage!

I'm not at all surprised to hear the court found against GTR... I've used GN services for many years and have bought both 1st and Standard tickets. When all the services were ran by 317/321/365s, it was quite pleasant to upgrade to 1st as an occasional treat - the seats were much more padded, it was much quieter, and in the case of the GN 317s, the seats aligned properly with the windows. As for the 387s or 700s though, I wouldn't even entertain it. 1st in the 700s is only a minor improvement on standard to my mind - all you get is a seat which feels slightly less like an ironing board, a table and a power point (but you can use the declassified rear coach on a standard ticket and benefit from all these anyway), and the only difference in a 387 is an antimacassar.

Just as a comparison, a few months back I travelled from York on Leeds on a TPE 185 in Standard, and although busier, that was a far more pleasant travelling environment than 1st on either a 387 or 700...

Bletchleyite said:

Interestingly, in a Class 319 it is really very good - 2+1 and nice seats. The only units on the south WCML (other than VT) where it's worth the cash.

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Isn't that just the 319/2s? I've travelled in 319216 and 319219 on the Abbey line (standard class ticket of course) but I think the 319/4s are 2+2.

AM9 said:

Isn't that just the 319/2s? I've travelled in 319216 and 319219 on the Abbey line (standard class ticket of course) but I think the 319/4s are 2+2.

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No, all the 319s that have First Class are 2+1, there are some (/0 I think) that are Standard only.

Bletchleyite said:

No, all the 319s that have First Class are 2+1, there are some (/0 I think) that are Standard only.

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OK thanks. I never had to go 1st when they were on TL.