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Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

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bionic

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To me the biggest shock here is that someone didn't egress sooner. There was a 465 failed outside Victoria last year and the punters were pulling egresses within minutes. Once the first egress is pulled its game over. The job stops. People are reading far too deeply into these events. We are talking south east London here. People do stuff like this. It's a DOO metro area, most stations are unstaffed (granted Lewisham is staffed) and a high proportion of the passengers don't buy tickets. Its non-gangway units so even if they edged a front cab into a platform the passengers in the rear units are still stuck. Egresses and passcoms are a frequent occurrence on SE.

It's all well and good saying the signaller could have done this, a driver could have done that, a manager could have done something else, bottom line is if someone wants to pull an egress they will... and they do.

12 car DOO trains on a network with skeleton station staff levels, and the staff that are there are not licensed to go track side anyway.

If the conditions present themselves for this to happen again then it will. All the pontificating and hand wringing about what people should or should not have done won't stop some idiot pulling an egress.
 
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Surreytraveller

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I asked a simple question as I was interested. You did not answer this. You brought up birching, not me.
Anyway - anyone have a sensible answer?
Can't see how anyone can be disciplined if everyone involved made the correct decision with the information which was available to them at the time. Did anyone make a 'wrong' decision, or do anything against the Rule Book?
 

farleigh

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Can't see how anyone can be disciplined if everyone involved made the correct decision with the information which was available to them at the time. Did anyone make a 'wrong' decision, or do anything against the Rule Book?
Thank you. I was interested as I do not know how the rail industry handles such things in comparison to other industries.
 

Surreytraveller

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Thank you. I was interested as I do not know how the rail industry handles such things in comparison to other industries.
Trouble is, everybody's workload would have been too great for them to handle every single issue that should have been handled. You could go down the road of disciplining the Transport Secretary for not making sure a guard was on every train. Perhaps we should have a signal box every half a mile so there are eyes on the ground. Perhaps there should be 'fogmen' about to be able to clear ice and snow. Thing is, decisions have been made in the past to get rid of these grades, but with the consequence that once in a blue moon there will be an incident that is unmanageable.
 

broadgage

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To me the biggest shock here is that someone didn't egress sooner. There was a 465 failed outside Victoria last year and the punters were pulling egresses within minutes. Once the first egress is pulled its game over. The job stops. People are reading far too deeply into these events. We are talking south east London here. People do stuff like this. It's a DOO metro area, most stations are unstaffed (granted Lewisham is staffed) and a high proportion of the passengers don't buy tickets. Its non-gangway units so even if they edged a front cab into a platform the passengers in the rear units are still stuck. Egresses and passcoms are a frequent occurrence on SE.

It's all well and good saying the signaller could have done this, a driver could have done that, a manager could have done something else, bottom line is if someone wants to pull an egress they will... and they do.

12 car DOO trains on a network with skeleton station staff levels, and the staff that are there are not licensed to go track side anyway.

If the conditions present themselves for this to happen again then it will. All the pontificating and hand wringing about what people should or should not have done won't stop some idiot pulling an egress.

I partially agree.
Except that I am not convinced that pulling the emergency egress handle makes one an idiot. Had I been on the train I might have been tempted to escape after the first hour, and almost certainly after two hours.
People simply wont accept being confined in appalling conditions for hours and within sight of a platform.
 

bionic

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Trouble is, everybody's workload would have been too great for them to handle every single issue that should have been handled. You could go down the road of disciplining the Transport Secretary for not making sure a guard was on every train. Perhaps we should have a signal box every half a mile so there are eyes on the ground. Perhaps there should be 'fogmen' about to be able to clear ice and snow. Thing is, decisions have been made in the past to get rid of these grades, but with the consequence that once in a blue moon there will be an incident that is unmanageable.

This is absolutely spot on. Railway workforce is cut to the bone, especially in SE metroland. 10 and 12 car DOO. That's the way the authorities want it.
 

farleigh

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Trouble is, everybody's workload would have been too great for them to handle every single issue that should have been handled. You could go down the road of disciplining the Transport Secretary for not making sure a guard was on every train. Perhaps we should have a signal box every half a mile so there are eyes on the ground. Perhaps there should be 'fogmen' about to be able to clear ice and snow. Thing is, decisions have been made in the past to get rid of these grades, but with the consequence that once in a blue moon there will be an incident that is unmanageable.
Thank you - that makes it clearer.
 

bionic

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I partially agree.
Except that I am not convinced that pulling the emergency egress handle makes one an idiot. Had I been on the train I might have been tempted to escape after the first hour, and almost certainly after two hours.
People simply wont accept being confined in appalling conditions for hours and within sight of a platform.

No you are right, pulling the egress doesn't make someone an idiot. But most of the times an egress does get pulled its generally an idiot doing it for idiotic reasons. In the lewisham scenario though, it must have been genuinely unpleasant for the punters on those trains and I can totally see why they egressed, I'm amazed they contained themselves for so long!
 

ainsworth74

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I asked a simple question as I was interested. You did not answer this. You brought up birching, not me.
Anyway - anyone have a sensible answer?

My apologies I was conflating your question with posts by other members on threads about other incidents where there is strong level of "baying for blood" occurring. It was unfair of me to make that link and I stand suitably chastised.
 

Mojo

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To me the biggest shock here is that someone didn't egress sooner. There was a 465 failed outside Victoria last year and the punters were pulling egresses within minutes.
I wonder in the light of Lewisham, and similar well publicised incidents, if rail customers’ confidence in the industry’s ability to deal with such incidents has reduced to the extent that customers are self detraining after a shorter period of time than previously. I know BTP for example have upgraded their response to stranded trains outside of station platforms in the past year compared to previous.
 

farleigh

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My apologies I was conflating your question with posts by other members on threads about other incidents where there is strong level of "baying for blood" occurring. It was unfair of me to make that link and I stand suitably chastised.
Well now I feel bad for chastising!
No hard feelings....
 

LAX54

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I partially agree.
Except that I am not convinced that pulling the emergency egress handle makes one an idiot. Had I been on the train I might have been tempted to escape after the first hour, and almost certainly after two hours.
People simply wont accept being confined in appalling conditions for hours and within sight of a platform.

You then immediatley make it 100 times worse for everyone else on that train, and many more in the surounding area, it gors from maybe 2 trains 'in trouble to 10 or 12 all at the same time
 

Daz28

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No you are right, pulling the egress doesn't make someone an idiot. But most of the times an egress does get pulled its generally an idiot doing it for idiotic reasons. In the lewisham scenario though, it must have been genuinely unpleasant for the punters on those trains and I can totally see why they egressed, I'm amazed they contained themselves for so long!

If you want to change behaviour, you need to make it less easy to egress. The egress handle is right by the door, coloured green and easy to activate. The talk to the driver passcom is less easy to find and operate and coloured red. It is common perception that something green is less dangerous than something red.

Put the egress handle behind a break glass, make it a less friendly colour and put a warning that it is only to be used when your life is in danger and you may start to change behaviour.
 

Robertj21a

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You then immediatley make it 100 times worse for everyone else on that train, and many more in the surounding area, it gors from maybe 2 trains 'in trouble to 10 or 12 all at the same time

That just goes to confirm that prompter, more effective, action is essential. A train, full of people, with few/no toilets, is already a problem area and a hold up of 30-60 mins may well be the last straw for many.
 

Jonny

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You then immediatley make it 100 times worse for everyone else on that train, and many more in the surounding area, it gors from maybe 2 trains 'in trouble to 10 or 12 all at the same time

What is surprising is the lack of emergency traction batteries and/or generator sets; surely it can't be that hard to retrofit a system that is only going to be used to get to a station. With the corridor couplings in SE-land, it's no big deal if there is another corridor train in the platform; coupling up and detraining through the other set would be possible.
 

Jonny

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That just goes to confirm that prompter, more effective, action is essential. A train, full of people, with few/no toilets, is already a problem area and a hold up of 30-60 mins may well be the last straw for many.

Especially when there is no heat and the body's warning systems for cold/hypothermia are beginning to kick in...
 

broadgage

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What is surprising is the lack of emergency traction batteries and/or generator sets; surely it can't be that hard to retrofit a system that is only going to be used to get to a station. With the corridor couplings in SE-land, it's no big deal if there is another corridor train in the platform; coupling up and detraining through the other set would be possible.

Agree re the first bit.
I have long held the view that all new electric trains should have either a small diesel engine or a battery so as to facilitate low speed movement, to the next station or other suitable place.
It does not need that much energy to move a train at say 15MPH for say a dozen miles.
In fact had the trains in the Lewisham incident been equipped with such batteries, they could probably have remained IN NORMAL SERVICE ! very little power from batteries would have got the train past the worst affected area, after which it could collect current from the conductor rail and proceed as normal.
(For reasons given elsewhere, I don't much like IETs, however one great merit of that design is the fitting of a single diesel engine to the nominally electric units.)

Not so sure about the second point regarding "corridor connections" though. Modern trains tend not to have through gangways, and those that do wont be compatible with other trains on the same line.
 

bionic

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None of the trains on SE metro have corridors/gangways between units. We are talking 465, 466 and 376 here. 375s have corridors but don't work metro services.
With the corridor couplings in SE-land, it's no big deal if there is another corridor train in the platform; coupling up and detraining through the other set would be possible.
 

swj99

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People pay a lot of money to travel on trains, in some cases, quite a high percentage of their salary. Regardless of the ticket price, passengers are entitled to expect a good, reliable service. We're now in the 21st century, so people also have a reasonable expectation that the service will be delivered promptly and reliably. They see it as the railway industry's job to get it right, but at the same time, at least partly due to previous train stranding incidents, I suspect they also have less confidence in the railway industry's ability to get it right, so they are far more likely to walk away.
As I and I think others have said previously, people seem to have lower stress tolerance these days, so the point at which they will bail out of a clearly failed service is likely to come sooner rather than later. For a lot of people now, they lose interest as soon as they realize they are not getting the service they expect, and which they've paid for. It's easy to dismiss the people factor in situations like this, but I'm not surprised people got off some of those trains. I know of 2 people who did, because they had somewhere they needed to be, and they'd set off in what would normally be considered to be plenty of time given the time of day. I'm not trying to agrue the rights or wrongs of this, just pointing out the reality.

I partially agree.
Except that I am not convinced that pulling the emergency egress handle makes one an idiot. Had I been on the train I might have been tempted to escape after the first hour, and almost certainly after two hours.
People simply wont accept being confined in appalling conditions for hours and within sight of a platform.
I used to be extremely patient and understanding, but as the years have gone by, my patience has been reduced and now if I'm in situations where I know something isn't working, or I arrive at a conclusion that I need to change course, then that's it. I won't waste any more time deliberating about it. I had a spare half hour recently so I called into the local motor factors one day last month, wanting to buy about £150 worth of car service parts. The company has recently changed hands. Prior to this, a customer could almost guarantee being served within about 20 seconds of walking through the door, but on that occasion, nobody came out of the office. Another customer was waiting too, and several employees were in the office, none of whom appeared too busy to come out to earn some money. I waited for a few minutes, and even selected some of the items I wanted, and put them on the counter. Then I realized I was wasting my time, so I went to Halfords down the road instead. Unfortunately they didn't get the money either, because there was only one lad on the shop floor, and he was running in and out of the shop, trying to fit a dashcam for a customer. There was no-one on the parts desk so I went home and ordered what I needed on ebay. I'm not the only one who hasn't got indefinite time to wait. We've got things we need to do, and places we have to be.

I don't think I would have even waited beyond 30 minutes on a stopped train in a situation like that, because basically, I don't have to. I think that's a view shared by a great number of people, as evidenced by incidents like the one under discussion here.

I've had conversations where people have said those who get off broken down trains are part of the problem, but I disagree. The problem has already happened, and people getting off trains to so they can get on with their day is just one of the inevitable symptoms of the problem. How the railway companies address the causes of problems like this and prevent them in the future is a matter for them, but until they do it in such a way as to actually reduce the incidence of passengers being trapped on trains, then incidents like the Lewisham one will just keep on happening. Simply trying to blame passengers goes absolutely nowhere towards preventing this type of situation happening.
 

Val3ntine

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I don't think I would have even waited beyond 30 minutes on a stopped train in a situation like that, because basically, I don't have to.

This decision can and probably will kill you one day. That’s the difference between not being patient on a train than a retail store.
No one is agreeing it’s right that passengers be trapped on a train when things go wrong, but why is it no one understands that safety notices and train crew telling people not to egress is not for the fun of it? It’s so you can live another day to be able to make that decision to not shop at halfords but on ebay!
 

ainsworth74

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No one is agreeing it’s right that passengers be trapped on a train when things go wrong, but why is it no one understands that safety notices and train crew telling people not to egress is not for the fun of it?

But I feel that is a misunderstanding of the psychology of those in that situation. I'm quite certain none of them consider it "oh well I'll just open this door using the emergency release and hop down on the track, what larks!" but they will have felt backed into a position where, in their non-expert opinion, it was the only remaining sensible choice. We can see that it is, short of the train being on fire (and even then the advice is to move to another carriage), always better to remain on board until told otherwise by staff. But to those at Lewisham?

It would seem to me that the following sequence of events easily leads someone to disregarding what they're being told and taking matters into their own hands:
  1. Your journey has almost certainly been disrupted (2M50 was an hour late departing before anything else happened).
  2. If you're in the rear unit of the train it's overcrowded with many people standing, conditions are already uncomfortable (but not unusually so).
  3. When you did grind to a halt you've been told by a disembodied voice (the driver) that you'll be on the move shortly (that's a guess on my part but seems a reasonably safe assumption).
  4. You do not get on the move shortly.
  5. The disembodied voice is not able to give you any idea when you'll be on the move.
  6. There are no toilets and people are still standing and did that guy just pee in a cup?
  7. You've been there for an hour now and there is still no clue as to when you might actually be on the move.
  8. You just want to go home, will this day never end and why can they still not tell us when we're going to be moving?
  9. That's the platform of Lewisham station out there.
  10. Is that the emergency door release?
And then off you go.

None of that changes that it's stupid and dangerous and everyone would be better served by remaining on board the train (it's clear from the report that the egress massively extended the delay to service recovery). But I don't think you can dismiss it as simply as people ignoring safety notices and instructions on a whim. With that chain of events I can certainly see why someone would make the decision to go lineside.

To link back some earlier thoughts that have been posted about deciding to evacuate earlier I can't help but wonder if after step seven of my list the driver had gone on the PA and said word to the effect of "I'm sorry ladies and gentlemen that we've been stuck here so long but having just spoken to my control it's been decided to evacuate the train to get you all out of here and somewhere more comfortable. We're going to get underway with the evacuation in the next fifteen minutes. Please listen out for further instructions." if that wouldn't have actually broken the chain of thoughts that lead people to give up and take matters into their own hands.

@ComUtoR made the interesting comment that the Industry is having to get to grips with the "human factors" of it's staff. But I wonder if the industry doesn't also need to get to grips with them in terms of its passengers rather than just dismissing their behaviour out of hand as being "ignoring what they're told to do".
 

LAX54

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People pay a lot of money to travel on trains, in some cases, quite a high percentage of their salary. Regardless of the ticket price, passengers are entitled to expect a good, reliable service. We're now in the 21st century, so people also have a reasonable expectation that the service will be delivered promptly and reliably. They see it as the railway industry's job to get it right, but at the same time, at least partly due to previous train stranding incidents, I suspect they also have less confidence in the railway industry's ability to get it right, so they are far more likely to walk away.
As I and I think others have said previously, people seem to have lower stress tolerance these days, so the point at which they will bail out of a clearly failed service is likely to come sooner rather than later. For a lot of people now, they lose interest as soon as they realize they are not getting the service they expect, and which they've paid for. It's easy to dismiss the people factor in situations like this, but I'm not surprised people got off some of those trains. I know of 2 people who did, because they had somewhere they needed to be, and they'd set off in what would normally be considered to be plenty of time given the time of day. I'm not trying to agrue the rights or wrongs of this, just pointing out the reality.


I used to be extremely patient and understanding, but as the years have gone by, my patience has been reduced and now if I'm in situations where I know something isn't working, or I arrive at a conclusion that I need to change course, then that's it. I won't waste any more time deliberating about it. I had a spare half hour recently so I called into the local motor factors one day last month, wanting to buy about £150 worth of car service parts. The company has recently changed hands. Prior to this, a customer could almost guarantee being served within about 20 seconds of walking through the door, but on that occasion, nobody came out of the office. Another customer was waiting too, and several employees were in the office, none of whom appeared too busy to come out to earn some money. I waited for a few minutes, and even selected some of the items I wanted, and put them on the counter. Then I realized I was wasting my time, so I went to Halfords down the road instead. Unfortunately they didn't get the money either, because there was only one lad on the shop floor, and he was running in and out of the shop, trying to fit a dashcam for a customer. There was no-one on the parts desk so I went home and ordered what I needed on ebay. I'm not the only one who hasn't got indefinite time to wait. We've got things we need to do, and places we have to be.

I don't think I would have even waited beyond 30 minutes on a stopped train in a situation like that, because basically, I don't have to. I think that's a view shared by a great number of people, as evidenced by incidents like the one under discussion here.

I've had conversations where people have said those who get off broken down trains are part of the problem, but I disagree. The problem has already happened, and people getting off trains to so they can get on with their day is just one of the inevitable symptoms of the problem. How the railway companies address the causes of problems like this and prevent them in the future is a matter for them, but until they do it in such a way as to actually reduce the incidence of passengers being trapped on trains, then incidents like the Lewisham one will just keep on happening. Simply trying to blame passengers goes absolutely nowhere towards preventing this type of situation happening.


So they bailed out, and had they tripped / slipped in what was seriously bad weather, and fallen on the 3rd rail before the Driver had a chance to tell the Signaller to get an Emergency Isolation, they would have been dead, no ifs no buts... dead, and that 'somewhere they needed to be' would never have happened ! THAT is the reality.

If you can't wait 30 mins on a delayed train, then don't go by train, go by road... but then expect to sit in a jam for hours and hours ! (with no delay and repay!)

Everyone is too much in a rush these days, they always have to be somewhere right 'now' !
 

Val3ntine

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But I feel that is a misunderstanding of the psychology of those in that situation. I'm quite certain none of them consider it "oh well I'll just open this door using the emergency release and hop down on the track, what larks!"

Ahh, but you see the comment I replied to just above basically did just that.
“I don’t think I would have waited over 30 mins because I don’t have to”
This is dangerous not only for themselves but for all other passengers because going back on psychological factors, people tend to follow suit when someone else starts it off.
I’ll stand by my comment that this one person and others who think alike could be the cause of their own or someone else’s death one day either far or near.
 

Val3ntine

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The reality is egresses are common, but the only reason no one has died yet either by electrification or being hit by a train is because of the damn good training of staff who prevent it and get everything switched off and all trains stopped.
People seem to think they are invicible and they know what they are doing and it’s not dangerous at all because it has been done before and will probably be done again but that is NOT the case, far from it. It’s just going to take ONE driver that second too long to realise what’s happened and do the necessary proceedures. You’re happy for your lives to be reliant on that second?
The more this happens the more likely odds raise that the 1 second will be too late one day. Why are people wanting to gamble their life lol.
 

broadgage

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This decision can and probably will kill you one day. That’s the difference between not being patient on a train than a retail store.
No one is agreeing it’s right that passengers be trapped on a train when things go wrong, but why is it no one understands that safety notices and train crew telling people not to egress is not for the fun of it? It’s so you can live another day to be able to make that decision to not shop at halfords but on ebay!

Whilst there are undoubtedly risks in escape, I feel that these are exaggerated. "can and probably will kill you one day" sounds dramatic, but the risks are not that great.
How many passengers escaped at Lewisham, and what proportion were killed ? And in other similar incidents ? The conductor rail is only dangerous if touched, or if closely approached whilst covered by snow etc.
And whilst being run down by another train is a theoretical risk, it is very small. The train from which people have escaped is unlikely to move, and if it does move will do so only slowly and after sounding the horn.
The train in front is unlikely to reverse, and again if it does move will do so very slowly and only after sounding the horn. Announcements regarding the perils of train movements are likely to be greeted with derision. "nothing has moved for hours, and probably wont move for a few more hours" is the likely response to any such soothing announcements.
A significant number of passengers have lost faith in "the railway" following this and other incidents, and some know that when the lights go out that this means that the conductor rail is dead, (not infallible of course)

I am not convinced that walking a few yards towards a station is hugely dangerous and that so doing will probably kill me one day.

A warming climate should reduce the risks of another Lewisham, but it could happen again, and any reduction in the probability will be offset by modern train designs that make the consequences of such events far worse.
Stranding in HOT weather is arguably a greater risk, temperatures within a modern sealed train can become unpleasant within a few minutes and potentially dangerous in much less than an hour.
 

ainsworth74

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Ahh, but you see the comment I replied to just above basically did just that.
“I don’t think I would have waited over 30 mins because I don’t have to”
This is dangerous not only for themselves but for all other passengers because going back on psychological factors, people tend to follow suit when someone else starts it off.
I’ll stand by my comment that this one person and others who think alike could be the cause of their own or someone else’s death one day either far or near.

With respect to the honourable member which you originally replied to I would agree with your view on such an attitude that even a thirty minute delay is unacceptable to the point of taking unnecessary risks (outside of major external factors such a fire on the train for instance). My comment was more directed at those persons directly involved in what happened at Lewisham and other incidents not the comments by someone on the Forum. If that makes sense?
 

Val3ntine

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Whilst there are undoubtedly risks in escape, I feel that these are exaggerated. "can and probably will kill you one day" sounds dramatic, but the risks are not that great.
How many passengers escaped at Lewisham, and what proportion were killed ? And in other similar incidents ? The conductor rail is only dangerous if touched, or if closely approached whilst covered by snow etc.
And whilst being run down by another train is a theoretical risk, it is very small. The train from which people have escaped is unlikely to move, and if it does move will do so only slowly and after sounding the horn.
The train in front is unlikely to reverse, and again if it does move will do so very slowly and only after sounding the horn. Announcements regarding the perils of train movements are likely to be greeted with derision. "nothing has moved for hours, and probably wont move for a few more hours" is the likely response to any such soothing announcements.
A significant number of passengers have lost faith in "the railway" following this and other incidents, and some know that when the lights go out that this means that the conductor rail is dead, (not infallible of course)

I am not convinced that walking a few yards towards a station is hugely dangerous and that so doing will probably kill me one day.

A warming climate should reduce the risks of another Lewisham, but it could happen again, and any reduction in the probability will be offset by modern train designs that make the consequences of such events far worse.
Stranding in HOT weather is arguably a greater risk, temperatures within a modern sealed train can become unpleasant within a few minutes and potentially dangerous in much less than an hour.

You have said so many bizzare things in this statement I don’t even know which to address.
All I have to say is if this is your manner of thinking you probably should stop using the railway.
You say the risks are not that great, erm how did you come to this conclusion please?

The conductor rail is only dangerous if touched, erm which is the conductor rail? You may know but does anyone else following you off the train know too? Oh you’re not responsible for them fine, but they only followed you off because you decided to release the doors otherwise they wouldn’t have even considered it before because their life was not in immediate danger so would never have thought to leave the train.
But what if you slip and fall? Oh wait no the conductor rail will decide not to kill you this time because you slipped and are oh so knowledgable therefore would never have purposely touched the rail. It will spare you this time because it empathises with how rough and unsettling railway infrastructures are.

And what about lines with overhead electification, you might say that’s even more safe if I have you correct? But do you know if wires have fallen around you? But oh no you know better than to jump 9ft in the air and do chin ups on them because you’re so smart and all risks are oh so exxagerated. Would you also know which wires and cables could and most probably are still live and have 25,000 volts running through them at ground level exactly where you’re oh so knowledgable feet would be walking?

No train movements. Oh you’re 100% certain of that? Or just 99.9%. Because regarding this particular incident I seem to recall services were not far off from being reinstated before the egress which halted the whole process again. And who do you think halted it? A smart all knowing passenger such as yourself? No it was staff who decided to keep everyone from danger and ensure they don’t get hit by any train or get electrocuted. You do realise it’s not an automatic process right? If you egress a train it does not automatically mean there will be trains along to hit you. Well no, you know better.
 

Val3ntine

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With respect to the honourable member which you originally replied to I would agree with your view on such an attitude that even a thirty minute delay is unacceptable to the point of taking unnecessary risks (outside of major external factors such a fire on the train for instance). My comment was more directed at those persons directly involved in what happened at Lewisham and other incidents not the comments by someone on the Forum. If that makes sense?

Oh no I understood you buddy, it’s just you replied directly to my comment so I wanted to highlight what I was actually addressing
 
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