How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

Maybach · 27 Mar 2019

The difficulties facing the West Somerset Railway have been well documented and need little repeating here. But a friend of mine, who is a member of the Llangollen Railway, lent me the latest Society magazine, SAL (Steam at Llangollen). The Chairman’s report made for troubling reading:

“The start of a new year and unfortunately not a very good start. As many of you may be aware we are having a few difficulties at present. In February I had the unpleasant task of making two of our staff redundant. I do not intent [sic] to dwell on this or go in to any great details, suffice to say we are working hard to get over this and we will come through this.”

Liz McGuinness (Chairman, Llangollen Railway plc).

I’m sure there are many people on this forum who are members of various railway preservation societies. So I was wondering, how many of our heritage lines are in (financial) difficulties? And why? Is it due to prevailing economic conditions, poor marketing or simply bad management? It’s clearly not universal because some railways are doing quite well, thank you. But others clearly are not…

RailUK Forums

341o2 · 27 Mar 2019

Swanage railway had a deficit of over £100,000 in 2017, about half due to the need to hire stock to work the Wareham service, then there was a collision between two locos - Manston is still out of action, resulting in many days of diesel working, no steam, not helped by poor weather at the peak time of July/August.

Critics (not associated with the railway) have made the accusation that Flying Scotsman's visit is another commercial enterprise, I get the impression that the additional income is "just what is needed"

Worf · 27 Mar 2019

Very few "heritage railways" survive solely on the income derived from passenger use , but rely on regular income from their supporting societies (through membership, fund raising and legacies for example) Even long established enterprises such as the Talyllyn would cease to be if they just had to rely on passenger income. Various railways (including Llangollen and Wensleydale) have used moneys gained from share issues to cover day to day running expenses, which is not really on when these moneys were supposedly raised for specific projects, but is just a short term fix. (I only know of 2 in North Wales that have no "supporting society" - there may be others)
So, although passenger numbers are looking goods on many heritage lines, the "other income" from supporting societies and share issues has probably peaked, in these cash strapped times for many "supporters". Unless heritage lines are run on a more commercial basis, some will inevitably fall by the wayside.
Llangollen are possibly over extended at the moment with the funding going towards their extension, rather than being diverted to cover operating costs.

Maybach · 27 Mar 2019

Talking of the Talyllyn, I’ve just seen in the latest ‘Railway Magazine’ that last year represented its best season since 2007. “The railway also set an all-time record for income with an increase of 13% over 2017, boosted by its cafes increasing revenue by 16%.”

I guess this underlines the importance of cafes and gift shops etc. to our heritage railways.

HaggisBotherer · 27 Mar 2019

341o2 said:
Critics (not associated with the railway) have made the accusation that Flying Scotsman's visit is another commercial enterprise

What is a heritage railway if it's not a commercial enterprise? They need cold, hard cash to survive, all the gricer hot air in the world won't move even the lightest wagon a millimetre...

A0wen · 27 Mar 2019

HaggisBotherer said:
What is a heritage railway if it's not a commercial enterprise? They need cold, hard cash to survive, all the gricer hot air in the world won't move even the lightest wagon a millimetre...

You heretic !!

Surely you know that heritage railways only exist to meet the whims of the spotter fraternity and whatever floats their boat. All those Thomas, Peppa Pig, family weekends aren't necessary. (Removes tongue from cheek).

Shenandoah · 27 Mar 2019

So many tourist/heritage lines survive simply because a great number of people who work on the lines are unpaid and support via donations/membership/charitable status etc. help keep them afloat. Few survive on a true commercial basis.
I am sure more will, in the future, fold. We have seen the close call for the WSR in recent times and there are others where posters mention parlous states of finances on the lines they are familiar with. Nostalgia doesn't pay bills, a true efficient business operation does.

Malcmal · 27 Mar 2019

Shenandoah said:
So many tourist/heritage lines survive simply because a great number of people who work on the lines are unpaid and support via donations/membership/charitable status etc. help keep them afloat. Few survive on a true commercial basis.
I am sure more will, in the future, fold. We have seen the close call for the WSR in recent times and there are others where posters mention parlous states of finances on the lines they are familiar with. Nostalgia doesn't pay bills, a true efficient business operation does.

Actually nostalgia DOES pay the bills to some extent!! Take for example the GWSR of which I am a big fan. Nearly all the staff there are volunteers from what I have read and you can be sure they are there for nostalgic reasons - so there is a huge wages bill paid for almost entirely by NOSTALGIA!!

It's all about balance - but as usual this thread turns into the usual bunfight between the extremists...

ABB125 · 27 Mar 2019

Malcmal said:
Actually nostalgia DOES pay the bills to some extent!! Take for example the GWSR of which I am a big fan. Nearly all the staff there are volunteers from what I have read and you can be sure they are there for nostalgic reasons - so there is a huge wages bill paid for almost entirely by NOSTALGIA!!

It's all about balance - but as usual this thread turns into the usual bunfight between the extremists...

I believe there are only 3 or 4 paid staff at the GWSR - everyone else is a volunteer

pdeaves · 27 Mar 2019

ABB125 said:
I believe there are only 3 or 4 paid staff at the GWSR - everyone else is a volunteer

To clarify, for every volunteer, that is a 'wage bill' paid by nostalgia. That is, no money changes hands; the volunteer staff accept their 'pay' as the nostalgic pleasure of being there.

Shaw S Hunter · 27 Mar 2019

pdeaves said:
To clarify, for every volunteer, that is a 'wage bill' paid by nostalgia. That is, no money changes hands; the volunteer staff accept their 'pay' as the nostalgic pleasure of being there.

And what happens when those people become too old to be of use on a live railway? Some young people can doubtless be encouraged to take an interest in the steam era but they represent a much smaller pool of potential volunteer staff. As time goes on it is inevitable that heritage lines will need to employ more paid staff just to maintain any sort of operation. A heightened sense of commercialism will be needed to pay for this.

Paul Hitchcock · 28 Mar 2019

HaggisBotherer said:
What is a heritage railway if it's not a commercial enterprise? They need cold, hard cash to survive, all the gricer hot air in the world won't move even the lightest wagon a millimetre...

Cannot be said often enough.

2392 · 28 Mar 2019

HaggisBotherer said:
What is a heritage railway if it's not a commercial enterprise? They need cold, hard cash to survive, all the gricer hot air in the world won't move even the lightest wagon a millimetre...

There in lies the rub HaggisBotherer. The eternal squaring the circle, in so much as you say without the cash the whole scheme falls flat.

Paul Hitchcock · 28 Mar 2019

Maybach said:
The difficulties facing the West Somerset Railway have been well documented and need little repeating here. But a friend of mine, who is a member of the Llangollen Railway, lent me the latest Society magazine, SAL (Steam at Llangollen). The Chairman’s report made for troubling reading:

“The start of a new year and unfortunately not a very good start. As many of you may be aware we are having a few difficulties at present. In February I had the unpleasant task of making two of our staff redundant. I do not intent [sic] to dwell on this or go in to any great details, suffice to say we are working hard to get over this and we will come through this.”

Liz McGuinness (Chairman, Llangollen Railway plc).

I’m sure there are many people on this forum who are members of various railway preservation societies. So I was wondering, how many of our heritage lines are in (financial) difficulties? And why? Is it due to prevailing economic conditions, poor marketing or simply bad management? It’s clearly not universal because some railways are doing quite well, thank you. But others clearly are not…

The reasons will be complex. Too long a run meaning the amount which can be charged
per mile is limited by the need to keep the cost of a full return trip within bounds is one.

Flying Phil · 28 Mar 2019

Whilst I basically agree with the last four posts I think they should be tempered by the reality that heritage railways are more complex organisations than the average commercial enterprise. That is both their strength (- and in some cases their weakness). The fact that their income comes from many sources (grants, shares,donations, bequests, gifts, tickets, catering, shop sales etc.) and their labour is partially paid, mainly(?) volunteer, renders their economics very difficult to evaluate. Add in the personalities involved and their various motivations.......
Thus, I believe, the fact that this thread is coincident with the "Expansion plans of heritage railways"....that there is a strong long term future for most heritage operations. I also think that, although we older folk who do still remember BR Steam are getting fewer, there is sufficient "new blood" coming through, besides in this modern age of AI and robots we will need to spend all our leisure time doing or watching something!

underbank · 28 Mar 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
And what happens when those people become too old to be of use on a live railway? Some young people can doubtless be encouraged to take an interest in the steam era but they represent a much smaller pool of potential volunteer staff. As time goes on it is inevitable that heritage lines will need to employ more paid staff just to maintain any sort of operation. A heightened sense of commercialism will be needed to pay for this.

A lot of heritage lines are working hard to attract younger volunteers on the grounds of work experience, apprenticeships, voluntary work to meet Duke of Edinburgh Award requirements, etc, and just volunteering for the fun of it. No doubt that older volunteers are giving up due to health and death, but there'll be others taking early retirement wanting something to do. Not saying it's not a big problem, but there is a "pool" of people out there looking for unpaid work for various reasons and it's up to the heritage lines to make themselves attractive to tap into that and to ensure their older volunteers pass on their knowledge/experience whilst they're still around.

2392 · 28 Mar 2019

Yes lines are trying to get new/young blood involved in order to keep going. "My" railway the North Yorkshire Moors has quite a thriving/growing junior section that cover most departments. They get involved with all sorts of rail activities.....

Maybach · 28 Mar 2019

A recent editorial in ‘Narrow Gauge World’ magazine noted the decline in volunteers on our heritage lines. One smaller railway (can’t remember which one now, unfortunately) had even been forced to pull the plug on a gala weekend because it couldn’t drum up enough volunteers to support the event. A worrying sign of things to come?

HaggisBotherer · 28 Mar 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
And what happens when those people become too old to be of use on a live railway? Some young people can doubtless be encouraged to take an interest in the steam era but they represent a much smaller pool of potential volunteer staff.

underbank said:
A lot of heritage lines are working hard to attract younger volunteers on the grounds of work experience, apprenticeships, voluntary work to meet Duke of Edinburgh Award requirements, etc, and just volunteering for the fun of it. No doubt that older volunteers are giving up due to health and death, but there'll be others taking early retirement wanting something to do.

2392 said:
Yes lines are trying to get new/young blood involved in order to keep going. "My" railway the North Yorkshire Moors has quite a thriving/growing junior section that cover most departments. They get involved with all sorts of rail activities.....

Underbank touches on something that I think is really important, but which many people seem to miss. I'm all for the emphasis on trying to get young people interested and involved, but I think it's a bit simplistic to assume that, without a huge injection of people in their teens, railway preservation will die.

People's interests and outlook on life change as they get older and there will be people in their 40s, 50s and 60s who have never been involved in railway preservation and who may well visit railways, or know people who are involved in them, and decide to give it a try, now they've got a bit more time, disposable income, kids grown up, etc.

And in trying to attract volunteers closer to middle-age, you are certainly competing against less distractions than are associated with the younger generations. I would hope that some progressive-thinking lines might think up campaigns to target this potentially huge resource?

As it happens, I was actively involved in a heritage line when I was young, but around 17 discovered the delights of girls, beer and other interests... lost interest in railways completely for several decades and nowadays, while I'm happy to support lines financially, have never had any desire to go back to the hands-on stuff.

mushroomchow · 28 Mar 2019

From my own experience, volunteers fall overwhelmingly into two camps - the young and the old. 90% of the people I work with, or have worked with, have either been retired or up to and including university age. I could count those I know with a full-time job on one hand.

I'm only one person, but my volunteering days are already hanging by a thread, and I'm only in my mid-twenties with no ball and chain. :rolleyes:

I just don't have the spare time anymore to be willing to even give a day a month, as much as I enjoy it. As well as the 9 to 5 in the week, family commitments, wanting a little time to myself and just being plain kn*ckered by the time the weekend rolls around just leave me not wanting to do it.

I'm actually moving away next year, funnily enough to embrace my youth while I still have age on my side, so after 13 years of being a volunteer at the railway in question, I'll be handing in my membership with a heavy heart.

The only thing I have to say on the "attracting youth" problem is that I've never seen it - if anything, there are vastly more young people on the line now than there ever were a decade ago when I started. The problem is - how to attract those working-age volunteers like myself to stick around - the ones which will ultimately keep it relevant in an increasingly difficult financial climate - without resorting to paid staff?

For the record, I would bite their hand off if there was a paid job going, such is my love for the sector and the experience I have from a decade of giving weekends to the cause. But there isn't, and isn't likely to be without the sort of commercialisation which would go down like a lead balloon amongst the volunteer base.

underbank · 28 Mar 2019

HaggisBotherer said:
People's interests and outlook on life change as they get older and there will be people in their 40s, 50s and 60s who have never been involved in railway preservation and who may well visit railways, or know people who are involved in them, and decide to give it a try, now they've got a bit more time, disposable income, kids grown up, etc.

That's me to a T. I'm mid 50's, and railways havn't ever been more than a hobby. I fully intend to join a heritage railway as a volunteer within the next 5 years, just havn't decided which yet. Kids will have left home by then and I'll have partially retired from my business, so will be looking to do something else for a couple of days per week, hopefully for the next 10 or 20 years until I'm passed it!

6Gman · 28 Mar 2019

Worf said:
Very few "heritage railways" survive solely on the income derived from passenger use , but rely on regular income from their supporting societies (through membership, fund raising and legacies for example) Even long established enterprises such as the Talyllyn would cease to be if they just had to rely on passenger income. Various railways (including Llangollen and Wensleydale) have used moneys gained from share issues to cover day to day running expenses, which is not really on when these moneys were supposedly raised for specific projects, but is just a short term fix. (I only know of 2 in North Wales that have no "supporting society" - there may be others)
So, although passenger numbers are looking goods on many heritage lines, the "other income" from supporting societies and share issues has probably peaked, in these cash strapped times for many "supporters". Unless heritage lines are run on a more commercial basis, some will inevitably fall by the wayside.
Llangollen are possibly over extended at the moment with the funding going towards their extension, rather than being diverted to cover operating costs.

Is that even legal?

Ploughman · 28 Mar 2019

pdeaves said:
To clarify, for every volunteer, that is a 'wage bill' paid by nostalgia. That is, no money changes hands; the volunteer staff accept their 'pay' as the nostalgic pleasure of being there.

It goes deeper than that if you think about it.

You pay to be a member.
You buy your own clothing and footwear. Some may get something provided but not everything.
You pay to get there and back home.
How much work do you do at home on behalf of the railway? Power, materials etc.

Not really pay is it?
More a subsidy.

Macwomble · 28 Mar 2019

Ploughman said:
You pay to be a member.
You buy your own clothing and footwear. Some may get something provided but not everything.
You pay to get there and back home.
How much work do you do at home on behalf of the railway? Power, materials etc.

Not really pay is it?
More a subsidy.

Tell me about it Bryan

.....I shudder to think just how much is spent by so many just to keep the NYMR running....and all the others can only operate on the same basis.

AndrewE · 28 Mar 2019

mushroomchow said:
I'm only one person, but my volunteering days are already hanging by a thread, and I'm only in my mid-twenties with no ball and chain. I just don't have the spare time anymore to be willing to even give a day a month, as much as I enjoy it. As well as the 9 to 5 in the week, family commitments, wanting a little time to myself and just being plain kn*ckered by the time the weekend rolls around just leave me not wanting to do it.

I'm actually moving away next year, funnily enough to embrace my youth while I still have age on my side, so after 13 years of being a volunteer at the railway in question, I'll be handing in my membership with a heavy heart.

The only thing I have to say on the "attracting youth" problem is that I've never seen it - if anything, there are vastly more young people on the line now than there ever were a decade ago when I started. The problem is - how to attract those working-age volunteers like myself to stick around - the ones which will ultimately keep it relevant in an increasingly difficult financial climate - without resorting to paid staff?

That's probably a fact of life for lots of people, but why do you have to leave completely? I know quite a few people who were sleeping members during the most congested part of their family and work life, but who got involved again when they eventually had more time (and one who has eventually had to rein back again due to declining stamina etc!)

Meole · 28 Mar 2019

Heritage has had the benefit of a culture of early retirement which may change as many schemes will no longer pay out at 55 or 60 but follow the national pension age increases.
Someone will free time at 55 is much different from a probably worn out 67.
On the other hand the GIG economy may allow younger volunteers to participate through their working time flexibility.
Many early operations received extensive free labour from Manpower employment schemes, track laying etc, such provision being less available now.

Worf · 28 Mar 2019

6Gman said:
Is that even legal?

Probably not and there were awkward questions posed at AGM by some disgruntled shareholders. (this was a few years ago, so I don't know if it is still happening)

geoffk · 28 Mar 2019

Can I add some of the environmental issues which are starting to have an impact - availability of good quality locomotive coal and possible restrictions on its use, possible future water shortages and the need to fit passenger rolling stock with retention tank toilets (and to have someone empty them). Will oil-firing of steam locos have to be considered?

Some of the longer heritage railways have been able to help TOCs with testing of new rolling stock (e.g. the GCR and SVR) or provide safe storage for new stock pending acceptance (MNR). This will bring useful extra income and, in the case of MNR, additional track capacity. Then there's filming. But many heritage lines won't be able to take advantage of these extra sources of income because of their location or route length.

Bletchleyite · 28 Mar 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
The reasons will be complex. Too long a run meaning the amount which can be charged
per mile is limited by the need to keep the cost of a full return trip within bounds is one.

That is the downside of a long railway. Most people are purchasing a nice day out, not a public transport journey (though I have used the Spa Valley Railway for public transport purposes, to get home from climbing at Harrison's Rocks). Extending to Corwen won't increase what people will pay but will increase costs.

With the exception of oddities like the WHR(C) (which in some ways is a bit more like a non-electrified Swiss narrow gauge line than a preserved railway, being built as it is to modern standards with old-looking rolling stock) there's probably a sweet spot around a half hour or so journey time each way.

Bletchleyite · 28 Mar 2019

Maybach said:
Talking of the Talyllyn, I’ve just seen in the latest ‘Railway Magazine’ that last year represented its best season since 2007. “The railway also set an all-time record for income with an increase of 13% over 2017, boosted by its cafes increasing revenue by 16%.”

I guess this underlines the importance of cafes and gift shops etc. to our heritage railways.

The cafe does well out of people who don't travel - I've eaten there (on Race the Train weekend, which makes them a packet) far more times than I've actually travelled on it. It's pretty good, and there's a little free museum and gift shop attached to it too.

There's also a great little outdoor miniature railway there - but you have to know it's there - to get to it you walk across the tracks and sidings (yes, this is allowed even though it feels almost as wrong as crossing the barrow crossing at Tywyn itself right in front of the headlights of the Class 158 which is also allowed) and head into the bushes on the opposite side and down some stairs into a rather magical little garden. Apparently they have an agreement with the railway that they aren't allowed to actively promote themselves too much so people wandering across don't get in the way!

This is their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/llechfan/

How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member