What happened to plans for Eurostar at Stratford International?

HSTEd · 28 Oct 2018

hwl said:
Yep.
Because all the continental stock has (fold down in the case of Eurostar) steps to deal with that issue. A side effect of standardisation and a very good reason we shouldn't use UIC platform heights on HS2 but go for the levl; platform approach on Japanese and Chinese HS.

Level boarding at a cost of a permanent 30% reduction in capacity due to preventing use of practical double deck trains is a ridiculous trade.

Level boarding on the trains most of the passengers on the full network will be using is entirely possible at a UIC height.

And the proposed platform height isn't even a UK standard.....

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JaJaWa · 29 Oct 2018

TfL training for the Olympics was in the unopened international part of the building. It was enormous.

gallafent · 29 Oct 2018

Maurice3000 said:
Even if the UK were willing/allowed to join the Schengen area and passport control would be abolished the security for the Channel Tunnel would remain. The Channel Tunnel is just too much of an attractive terrorist target to let passengers on the train without scanning their stuff. It's the scanning infrastructure with required segregated waiting areas behind the scanner that take up a lot of space and cost.

Exactly … I remember being very surprised by the airport-style x-ray scanners etc. at Madrid Atocha, many years ago. Reading up on the history of that station reveals the reason soon enough

I have even seen such technology deployed in the pedestrian tunnels leading into a megacity's metro system, which was not great for throughput. I don't think that system was in place all the time though, only during certain special events.

Bletchleyite · 29 Oct 2018

JaJaWa said:
TfL training for the Olympics was in the unopened international part of the building. It was enormous.

I'm sure it can be converted to retail at some point

Bletchleyite · 29 Oct 2018

gallafent said:
Exactly … I remember being very surprised by the airport-style x-ray scanners etc. at Madrid Atocha, many years ago. Reading up on the history of that station reveals the reason soon enough

I have even seen such technology deployed in the pedestrian tunnels leading into a megacity's metro system, which was not great for throughput. I don't think that system was in place all the time though, only during certain special events.

Perhaps surprisingly it is in some places - notably Delhi and Chinese cities (the latter has airport-style security almost everywhere).

Bletchleyite · 29 Oct 2018

Doomotron said:
It might just be the perspective but that honestly doesn't seem that bad.

It's probably the combination of a vertical *and* horizontal gap - there are plenty (though fewer than there were) of local rural stations in the UK with a big step down, but very few with that kind of horizontal gap other than the likes of Clapham Jn P16/17 where the chasm (it's at least a foot) must be terrifying to small children.

Mind you, those photos show a train with all the doors open...

Bletchleyite · 29 Oct 2018

hwl said:
Yep.
Because all the continental stock has (fold down in the case of Eurostar) steps to deal with that issue.

Or a lower floor. The Swiss have near 100% level boarding on their regional trains with a standard platform height which is very low indeed.

gottago · 18 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'm sure it can be converted to retail at some point

Currently it seems to be used as the construction company’s offices for the soon to be finished Manhattan Loft Gardens opposite the station. Presumably the space with be mothballed again once that’s finished or perhaps they’ll look to continue renting it out as offices to someone else?

Bungle965 · 18 Nov 2018

I believe it might have been on the forum actually, but I seem to remember an idea being floated where a low cost operator could use Stratford International instead of going through to London. Something I imagine similar to how SNCF's low cost subsidy Ouigo uses Marne La Vallee (Disneyland) for allot of their services.
I have no idea how viable of an idea that actually would be though.
Sam

jopsuk · 18 Nov 2018

the issue with using Stratford as a "low cost terminus" is in two main parts:
1. The border facilities are unmanned at the moment. The operator would need to pay to have this manned.
2. There's no sensible way to reverse a train at the international platforms. To get from Platform 1 (International Arrivals) to Platform 4 (International Departures) without running all the way into a platform at St Pancras to revere there would require three reversals, two of which would be in the tunnels on the running lines. This, clearly, is not something that is feasible. But now you've got a train needing platformed at St Pancras for long enough to be reversed, and timetabled in to that section too.

I can't see how this operation could cost less than operating from St Pancras.

The Domestic platforms are set up for reversal, using the Stratford East Junction crossover.

The International platforms would have needed a reversing siding built to the west of the station.

BahrainLad · 18 Nov 2018

The solution is clearly to convert the domestic platforms into international, and vice versa. Only one international train could be served at a time due to the island platform, and the layout of the station above would change, but it is a solution.

Ianno87 · 18 Nov 2018

BahrainLad said:
The solution is clearly to convert the domestic platforms into international, and vice versa. Only one international train could be served at a time due to the island platform, and the layout of the station above would change, but it is a solution.

The escalators etc are only configured to access each set of platforms from the relevant concourse.

And international trains would then be restricted to less than 400m in length, which doesn't meet tunnel safety requirements.

jopsuk said:
the issue with using Stratford as a "low cost terminus" is in two main parts:
1. The border facilities are unmanned at the moment. The operator would need to pay to have this manned.
2. There's no sensible way to reverse a train at the international platforms. To get from Platform 1 (International Arrivals) to Platform 4 (International Departures) without running all the way into a platform at St Pancras to revere there would require three reversals, two of which would be in the tunnels on the running lines. This, clearly, is not something that is feasible. But now you've got a train needing platformed at St Pancras for long enough to be reversed, and timetabled in to that section too.

I can't see how this operation could cost less than operating from St Pancras.

The Domestic platforms are set up for reversal, using the Stratford East Junction crossover.

The International platforms would have needed a reversing siding built to the west of the station.

Alternative to St Pancras would be reversing on the North London Line connection at York Way South Jn, albeit a location where crew would be 'stuck' on the train for the duration of the reversal.

Plus the operator would have to stomach the entire cost of managing the international facilities at Stratford themselves.

E_Reeves · 18 Nov 2018

Are you able to get onto the International platforms or are they blocked off?

Bungle965 · 18 Nov 2018

E_Reeves said:
Are you able to get onto the International platforms or are they blocked off?

Blocked off.
Sam

MarkyT · 19 Nov 2018

Ianno87 said:
Alternative to St Pancras would be reversing on the North London Line connection at York Way South Jn, albeit a location where crew would be 'stuck' on the train for the duration of the reversal. Plus the operator would have to stomach the entire cost of managing the international facilities at Stratford themselves.

A Eurostar should fit on the connecting link without blocking the NLL-ECML connection, but would block the connection from NLL to St Pancras. The single track link was designed wide enough for a second track so there should be sufficient space to provide a safe walkway for crew to disembark and be relieved, perhaps a short crew platform somewhere at each end of the train, but I'm not sure a train could be left unattended there on the gradient falling to HS1, as there's no trapping.

quantinghome · 19 Nov 2018

HSTEd said:
Level boarding at a cost of a permanent 30% reduction in capacity due to preventing use of practical double deck trains is a ridiculous trade.

How would this prevent effective double deck trains? It would mean stairs going up and down from the vestibule to access the upper and lower decks, but this is already the case for some double deck designs, and it means the stairs take up less room overall. The SNCB M6 coach does this and has massive capacity.

HSTEd · 20 Nov 2018

quantinghome said:
How would this prevent effective double deck trains? It would mean stairs going up and down from the vestibule to access the upper and lower decks, but this is already the case for some double deck designs, and it means the stairs take up less room overall. The SNCB M6 coach does this and has massive capacity.

SNCF trains dont have to have an entry level at 1.3m above the railhead.

quantinghome · 20 Nov 2018

HSTEd said:
SNCF trains dont have to have an entry level at 1.3m above the railhead.

My point is this. Here is the SNCB M6 cross-section:

Although designed for 760mm high platforms, the vestibule level is 1190mm, so the design would work perfectly well with a much higher platform level, which would also allow level access entry to the vestibule.

HSTEd · 20 Nov 2018

quantinghome said:
My point is this. Here is the SNCB M6 cross-section:

View attachment 55690

Although designed for 760mm high platforms, the vestibule level is 1190mm, so the design would work perfectly well with a much higher platform level, which would also allow level access entry to the vestibule.

This will require rather more substantial steps to access the lower deck than found in TGV type designs.
This has implications for the interior layout and the speed of boarding.

As it is a TGV or TGV Duplex-derivative designed for GC gauge would be able to get away with only a single step from a UIC platform - which studies have shown is almost as fast as level boarding.

(EDIT: in addition, this profile will not permit a flat upper deck throughout the train, which will cause interesting problems for passengers moving around and trying to get in and out of seats. With the TGV Duplex style layout you can instruct passengers to board through every door and still have people move about above the possibly crowded interiors without clogging up stairs all over the place.

A flat upper deck is also interesting because it permits us to have a Class 185 style layout with lots of standing room and jump seat style seating down stairs for short hops, whilst having an intercity layout upstairs that is almost entirely independent of it.)

In this case we would end up with a full blown staircase to reach the lower deck, which is not tenable from a boarding speed perspective.

(Indeed with a proper 760mm platform, we could even get level boarding and double deck capacity on a GC gauge)

quantinghome · 21 Nov 2018

I'm not advocating a 1200mm platform as superior to 'proper' heights, just pointing out that it doesn't preclude a reasonable double-deck design. I can see pros and cons to either option to be honest. The TGV duplex layout has level access along the upper deck (although if you're in the lower deck you've got a lot of stairs to go up and down to move carriages), but it does seem to be rather wasteful of space at the carriage ends. The M6 coach appears to have a more efficient layout albeit at the loss of (nearly) level access at one of the levels. However I don't consider this untenable for boarding speed - after all the M6 is in widespread use on the Belgian intercity network which has more frequent stops than the HS2 captive network and it seems to work well.

rdlover777 · 29 Mar 2019

jopsuk said:
2. There's no sensible way to reverse a train at the international platforms. To get from Platform 1 (International Arrivals) to Platform 4 (International Departures) without running all the way into a platform at St Pancras to revere there would require three reversals, two of which would be in the tunnels on the running lines. This, clearly, is not something that is feasible. But now you've got a train needing platformed at St Pancras for long enough to be reversed, and timetabled in to that section too.

Doesn't TVM 430 allow bi directional running anyway? so just wrong line it to ebbsfleet

GW43125 · 29 Mar 2019

rdlover777 said:
Doesn't TVM 430 allow bi directional running anyway? so just wrong line it to ebbsfleet

By doing so you then shut the line down for 10 minutes or however long it takes. Non-starter really.

Ianno87 · 29 Mar 2019

rdlover777 said:
Doesn't TVM 430 allow bi directional running anyway? so just wrong line it to ebbsfleet

...How much capacity do you want to use up in the process?!!

You'd need to wrong-line from Stratford to Wennington Crossovers; about 5 minutes' running time each way. So this requires a gap in normal dircetion trains of at least 16 minutes or so to permit (2 x 5 minute running times plus 2 x 3 minute single line reoccupations). Not practical with at least 4tph South Eastern and around 2-3tph Eurostars every hour.

infobleep · 29 Mar 2019

So are the Stratford International platforms an expensive white elephant and why is it called Stratford International if their is nothing international about the station, bar some non stop trains passing through that no one can board?

Ianno87 · 29 Mar 2019

infobleep said:
So are the Stratford International platforms an expensive white elephant and why is it called Stratford International if their is nothing international about the station, bar some non stop trains passing through that no one can board?

Well the capability is there should an operator choose to in future. And "International" still emphasises the easy change onto Eurostar at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

The alternative reality would be people on here moaning how it is "ridiculous" and a "mistake" not to have built international facilities at all.

Doomotron · 29 Mar 2019

Ianno87 said:
Well the capability is there should an operator choose to in future. And "International" still emphasises the easy change onto Eurostar at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

The alternative reality would be people on here moaning how it is "ridiculous" and a "mistake" not to have built international facilities at all.

I think if HS1 and HS2 were connected and Regional Eurostar became a thing, stopping at Ashford and Stratford instead of Ebbsfleet and St Pancras would be a good idea for north-of-London services, IF they ever happened.

infobleep · 29 Mar 2019

Ianno87 said:
Well the capability is there should an operator choose to in future. And "International" still emphasises the easy change onto Eurostar at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

The alternative reality would be people on here moaning how it is "ridiculous" and a "mistake" not to have built international facilities at all.

I guess but if they are never going to use them. Or is there a realistic chance they might?

One can get from Victoria to St Pancras on the Tube, so should London Victoira be renamed London Victoira International?

Quakkerillo · 30 Mar 2019

There's currently two eurostars at the station on the international platforms (due to trespassers in the St Pancras area). Very delayed services from Paris and Brussels, but don't know if they actually dropped off passengers there. Would that be a first?

TommyL4 · 30 Mar 2019

infobleep said:
I guess but if they are never going to use them. Or is there a realistic chance they might?

One can get from Victoria to St Pancras on the Tube, so should London Victoira be renamed London Victoira International?

Victoria did have international services decades ago before Eurostar came into being, in the form of boat trains

urpert · 30 Mar 2019

Quakkerillo said:
There's currently two eurostars at the station on the international platforms (due to trespassers in the St Pancras area). Very delayed services from Paris and Brussels, but don't know if they actually dropped off passengers there. Would that be a first?

Interesting. ISTR that in Waterloo International days the designated diversionary station if Waterloo was inaccessible was Kensington Olympia. I know there were a few drills there but I'm not sure if they ever had to use it in service.

What happened to plans for Eurostar at Stratford International?

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