I think the consequences will be far more serious if we don’t leave, millions of voters losing complete faith in the system, possibly never voting again leaving the door wide open for Corbyn to get in or an extreme party on either side
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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I think the consequences will be far more serious if we don’t leave, millions of voters losing complete faith in the system, possibly never voting again leaving the door wide open for Corbyn to get in or an extreme party on either side
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Howardh
Established Member
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Well, an extreme wing of a party is running the country right now, and that's the explanation why you haven't had, or probably won't get, Brexit.
Firstly, why are there basically no media reports about the scale of the leave protests in London yesterday? It's pretty much only referred to as "multiple rallies" and "the crowds". It's almost as if the media companies don't want to be accused of bias by comparing the numbers.
Secondly...
Well, Corbyn wants brexit, far more than May. She only wants it to be able to secure a legacy now, if she thought she'd solve the Tory party issues by withdrawing article 50, she'd have done it in an instant. Corbyn on the other hand has been a committed eurosceptic since he first sat down in the commons.
And if people are wanting to opt out of the political process simply because they can't get their virtually-impossible-to-achieve no deal Brexit (which wasn't on the cards during the referendum anyway!), then IMHO it's their loss. I know they want the remainers to never speak again about brexit, but people are allowed to hold views contrary to the "will of the people" and should continue to engage in the process.
Secondly...
Well, Corbyn wants brexit, far more than May. She only wants it to be able to secure a legacy now, if she thought she'd solve the Tory party issues by withdrawing article 50, she'd have done it in an instant. Corbyn on the other hand has been a committed eurosceptic since he first sat down in the commons.
And if people are wanting to opt out of the political process simply because they can't get their virtually-impossible-to-achieve no deal Brexit (which wasn't on the cards during the referendum anyway!), then IMHO it's their loss. I know they want the remainers to never speak again about brexit, but people are allowed to hold views contrary to the "will of the people" and should continue to engage in the process.
Bantamzen
Established Member
So for three years we have been told by leavers that any serious consequences as a result of Brexit being discussed is just "Project Fear", yet the moment it seems like Brexit may not happen the way they want suddenly there are consequences? Hmmm, a bit more evidence in my new "Project Vanity" theory....
2017 showed that that's about as effective as a chocolate fireguard. Remember that it only requires that a motion pass the House by a two-thirds majority stating "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election."
And which opposition party is going to vote against contesting an election? Particularly now that both the two main opposition parties have been calling for an election for months? So, just as 2017, it'll be easy to get the necessary two-thirds majority for the motion to pass.
They will blame the EU! They will never link it to anything other than the "nasty EU punishing plucky Britain". And indeed that will no doubt be the line taken by the Mail, the Express, et al.
May thought from the polling at the time meant she could go from having a twelve seat majority to something much more stonking perhaps thirty or forty seats.
Instead the public got to know her better and she went from a small but workable majority into a minority Government (yet still behaves like she won that big majority back in 2017). It's a testament to how much of a poisoned chalice being PM is at the moment that she wasn't disposed of by her party after that tremendous performance.
malc-c
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I don't follow politics nor understand why we are in such a state where our government behave more like kids in a infant school. Why it seems that there is all this debate over the conditions of leaving the EU at this late stage is beyond me. It was know more than two years ago that if we left there would be the border issue with Northern / Southern Ireland, yet two years after handing in our notice to quit they can't sort it out. All I know is that we elected a government as a democracy, the question of leave or remain went to the country and the public entitled to vote at that time elected to leave the EU. Legal procedure was followed which meant that 29th March 2019 was the date we left.... now they have extended that date because they don't have time to get things in place if a withdraw deal is accepted... FFS they've had two years !!!!!!
I've lost all confidence in the electoral procedure and government as a whole and won't be voting in any forthcoming election - they are all a waste of space !
I bet if old Maggie Thatcher was PM we would have left yesterday on "our" terms and not trying to appease the EU leaders !!
I've lost all confidence in the electoral procedure and government as a whole and won't be voting in any forthcoming election - they are all a waste of space !
I bet if old Maggie Thatcher was PM we would have left yesterday on "our" terms and not trying to appease the EU leaders !!
Esker-pades
Established Member
I agree with your general sentiment towards parliament: it's awful.
To be fair, 2 years is a very short period of time to negotiate solutions to 40 years of legal, economic and political integration. The relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic only complicates matters further. By "complicates" I mean that it is simply impossible to actually solve the situation without compromising on something. The Good Friday Agreement (rightly so) is not something that can be compromised on, so one has to compromise on the distance and autonomy from the EU.
The problem really is that the UK government has had no clear aims from the start. The aims that it eventually came up with are contradictory:
- Control over migration
- End jurisdiction of the ECJ
- Independent trade policy
- Stop financial contributions to the EU
- Tariff-free trade with EU
- Seamless and frictionless borders
There hasn't yet been a proper reality-centred debate, mainly because a lot of remain and leave campaigners are still in a "campaign mentality" where there can never be compromise because that would be seen as weakness. But, compromise is exactly what is required because the margins were so small.
Also, it is politically impossible for certain high-profile members of a certain campaign to admit that they promise things which couldn't be delivered.
Giugiaro
Member
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Suraggu
Member
Personally if a General Election is called I cannot see either party getting a majority.
I live in a heavy leave majority county and many of the locals I speak too are genuinely looking at voting for UKIP instead of Labour as traditionally voting blue is a death warrant.
So even if she does call a General Election I think you could see a vastly different landscape and coalitions required.
I live in a heavy leave majority county and many of the locals I speak too are genuinely looking at voting for UKIP instead of Labour as traditionally voting blue is a death warrant.
So even if she does call a General Election I think you could see a vastly different landscape and coalitions required.
Howardh
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Only 5.98 million, and only 1 million on the march (and all those zero people arrested). Appalling. What a shame the numbers were nowhere near as large as those on the Farage march or in Parliament Square yesterday.
Howardh
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Very little chance of a majority and if the new Indies contest most English/Welsh seats then that could throw any perdictions out of the window - even if they didn't win a single seat they could split Tory/Labour votes. As alluded to before - an election would solve nothing, and a referendum wouldn't necessarily unless it was very carefully worded regarding our future status and enshrined in law. meanwhile, the nHS, police, education all need attention....
Howardh
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Their biggest error was expecting "all the benefits of being in th EU" whilst leaving it. Sorry, but, head-wall-bang.
Esker-pades
Established Member
Exactly. That's what I was trying to get out with "reality-centred debate" and the rest of the paragraph.
Geezertronic
Established Member
You have to admit that comparing a weekday march with a weekend march is a little different...
Yes, due to there not being two countries anywhere in the world having different regulatory regimes not requiring any form of border checks, but that doesn’t seem to prevent Mr Farage & co trying to railroad a no deal scenario through regardless of those facts
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Howardh
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Well if too many are working and can't go on the Brexit march then they can hardly complain about EU migrants taking their jobs, another myth bites the dust.
Brexit in a nutshell.
MPs are representatives not delegates. They are not elected to do what those who voted for them tell them to do. They are elected to do what they think is best for the country at large and for their constituents. This is lesson 101 of UK government and get understanding of it is amazingly low.Thanks for the link.
The best I had was South Bucks with Leave 50.7 vs Remain 49.3 (78% turnout)
I wonder what was said to him.
What has driven me nuts about this entire process is how some MPs have stated outright that they have completely ignored their constituents and very few others has publicly stated they have a different opinion to their constituents but have still represented their results and wishes. Like others, my faith in UK politics has been destroyed. I must admit that I was one of the 'disenchanted' voters. Now I'm on the edge of never voting again
DanDaDriver
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I’m not sure I even have words for this sort of behaviour.
https://twitter.com/bexin2d/status/1111943920911552512?s=21
https://twitter.com/bexin2d/status/1111943920911552512?s=21
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EM2
Established Member
If people felt that strongly, they'd take a day off. Kids are doing it for their climate protests!
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Millions of remainers have already lost faith in a system which has allowed this utter, utter shambles.
It’s time we had a good think about how representative democracy should work, and the level of complexity voters should be entrusted with.
I was thinking more along the lines that the Conservative and DUP MP's may not fancy an unnecessary election, particularly the ones in marginal seats. May has no power to force one on her own say so.
Interesting that you should mention that. Every time there is mention of a new referendum, or revoking A50, there is a chorus of leavers warning (or is it making veiled threats) of dark forces rising up, riots etc.. So is this the leavers' own 'project fear' or just a desperate attempt to give the impression that going against their 'democratic entitlement' would be a bad move for all?
As you say, everybody seems to be scared of the leavers which given their angry uncompromising behaviour, isn't surprising, but if there is a messy departure or even an unnecessarily jingoistic flavour of how a deal is handled, the generally tolerant remainers may decide to push back. They are after all the 'privileged elite', so with their riches, they are in a far better position to ride out the inevitable chaos and shortages.
There will be riots by Brexiteers, but only if we leave as that will cause the price of their pint in 'spoons to rise (despite what the boss says). Although I doubt the march will be in the streets of London, they will not pay London pub prices, and no beer no march
Say that to the thousands loosing Thier jobs in various car plants due to the clusterf that is brexit.
What about the trillions in assets removed from the UK economy. The tax upon which we have loat forever and has cost of more than we paid into the eu.
All dismissed as project fear.
If we do leave with no deal the people you say have lost faith will be too busy trying to keep a roof over thier heads and food in the cupboards. Of course remain voters are also going to be dragged along. You wonder why remain voters are doing everything they can to stop berexit.
Swindon Honda workers march against factory closure
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...losure?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Honda is shutting its plant for many reasons ! The U.K. motoring manufacturing has been declining for years , all of it moving into the Eu
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