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Arriva for sale?

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Fawkes Cat

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Arriva's "rag bag of operations" provides an entry into many transport markets across Europe.
That should be attractive to a number of ambitious transport operators who want a European-scale business, particularly as the national railways are opened up further.
The UK side may not be as attractive with its current franchise/concession setup, and upcoming Brexit with likely divergence from EU processes over time.
Just because Arriva UK is in the doghouse over some current local issues doesn't detract from the overall value of the Europe-wide scale of the business.

So it's not too difficult to imagine a sale to a consortium led by a big European operator, with a minority UK partner who would take on the UK operations, and possibly already have arrangements in place to sell on those of the UK operations which didn't fit/fell foul of competition rules.
 
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Robertj21a

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DB may need the money, but it's not good timing really. Apart from Brexit, rail franchises in the UK are less attractive then they were a few years ago when they were seen as a nice money earner.

I can't see too many transport operators wanting such a rag bag of operations either, if a transport group bought Arriva, I imagine they would then sell on quite a few of the operations, either for Competition purposes or due to incompatibility with their core business.

It appears that you are only thinking of the UK operations - Arriva is spread across much of Europe.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It appears that you are only thinking of the UK operations - Arriva is spread across much of Europe.

My thoughts entirely.

Let’s get this in perspective before people continue slicing and dicing Arriva.

It’s got revenues of €5.5bn so that’s just a bit smaller than Transdev or First but larger than Stagecoach or CDG.

So a purchaser isn’t likely to be a transport group. It might be one or more investment funds (like an Apollo or 3G) or if that’s not attractive, they’ll engage a merchant bank to support a floatation.

To suggest what might happen after that.... well, that is anybody’s guess and it is just that. A total stab.
 

achmelvic

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It's quite ironic that AFAIK Arriva only started branding their buses as 'A DB Company' in the last couple of years after not mentioning their German owners for the first 5 or 6 years after the takeover.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's quite ironic that AFAIK Arriva only started branding their buses as 'A DB Company' in the last couple of years after not mentioning their German owners for the first 5 or 6 years after the takeover.

TfW Rail don't tell you they are French/Canadian on their trains.
National Express took a decade to put their brand on their trains, but in the end they exited the railway with significant brand damage after the NXEC failure.
 

philthetube

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For it to have any value as an IPO there needs to be something of a strategy and income in the medium term.

Currently none of Arriva's franchises run beyond 2025, with the first coming up for renewal being XC next year. On that basis it may not attract the level of interest DB want.
It would be priced according to value, some bits worth more than others.

Enen though they have said that they want to sell it in its entirety I feel sure that if someone came along wanting a decent chunk, eg all uk busses they would look at it.

They would be stupid not to, they have to keep shareholders interests at heart.
 

omnicity4659

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And it has disappeared with the new brand. Which says something too.

I've seen plenty of Arriva buses sporting the new brand livery which have 'a DB company' included. Like this one.

View attachment 60899

Can confirm transmanche's post, the DB branding is heavily used in Arriva's new brand, a lot more than previously.

Only the UK Trains division lost DB branding for clarity reasons, instead getting "by arriva".
 

overthewater

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I think someone made an awful mistake put this all into one thread, there you go.

Yes I was looking at UK aspect because I was replying to someone point. I do think any buyer would try and get rid of the UK operations. I'll make one last comment until it's sold, I think its will be broken up.

IE Disney sale, Back in 1983 some people believe disney was worth more in parts than all of the company.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/27/deutsche-bahn-to-sell-uk-rail-bus-operator-arriva
From the Guardian
Deutsche Bahn said a sale would also give Arriva more financial opportunities for growth.

In the UK, Arriva’s biggest going concern is Northern, which has been beset by problems including strikes in a row over the role of guards on trains.

It has been praised for operating Chiltern and open access services such as Grand Central, but shouldered criticism for running down Wales’s train services over a long contract, and missed out on a string of franchise bids. It is one of the UK’s largest bus operators, running over 5,000 buses.
 
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thenorthern

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I would think a spin off is the only option if DB wants to offload Arriva as I think Stagecoach or First would be prevented from purchasing Arriva as it would be not be in the interests of competition given that if one of them were to acquire Arriva the company would be far too big.
 

Killingworth

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The international nature of this operation reminds me of the ABN AMRO banking group's takeover by a consortium of RBS, Santander and Fortis. AMRO had operations in 63 countries and employed 110,000.

It seemed like a good idea at the time and it was, for Santander. The business was split into 3. Santander managed to sell their share for a profit. Fortis was on the brink of going bust until nationalised by the Dutch government. RBS was only prevented from going the same way by nationalisation in all but the name.

DB have been signalling this move for some time. They want quick cash and will sell for less than the value of the parts sold more slowly over time. Vultures will be watching carefully.

Bits of Arriva are worthless at present and will prove difficult to sell on their own. A new owner may even have to effectively pay to get rid of them to clear the slate. That's where relatively short term rail franchises come in. It's not hard to imagine the UK rail businesses being a priority to unravel. I don't see the owners of Arriva rushing to take on any more.

All is currently conjecture, Brexit an interesting complexity to enliven the negotiations.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I would think a spin off is the only option if DB wants to offload Arriva as I think Stagecoach or First would be prevented from purchasing Arriva as it would be not be in the interests of competition given that if one of them were to acquire Arriva the company would be far too big.

Once again, that's just a UK-centric view.
Neither Stagecoach nor First Group have a significant presence in Europe which is where most of Arriva's value is located.
They (or others) might buy Arriva and sell the UK arm, to keep the local competition regulator happy.
In any case rail franchises are not "competitive" anyway in that sense - Stagecoach and First could have bid for and won any of Arriva's current franchises.
Buses are a different matter and might require a sell-off.
Arriva doesn't operate in France, so a French outfit (eg Keolis or RATP) would have no problems buying Arriva to build European operations outside France.
 

coppercapped

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There's far too much of that here, isn't there? There seems to be little or no understanding of the concept that a UK-based business can have most of its value outside the UK.

Arriva is an interesting one. From a UK based organisation (Cowie Group) it has developed into an international organisation in which the UK operations are now almost a sideshow.
UK rail is pretty much irrelevant as it's time-limited by the length of the franchises, so it would be easy enough for a new owner to leave them to natural redundancy; UK bus seems to me to be constantly retrenching (albeit not with the rapidity of First), so it's the international operations which have sale value.

And I'm not totally sure how much sale value they have; they rely heavily on contracts in non-deregulated markets with only partial contract liberalisation, i.e. there's not much competition yet. As countries liberalise their transport policies, I'm not sure Arriva has the ability to morph from semi-municipal/quasi-state operations to genuine competition; they certainly haven't done hugely well in a free market context here.

I suspect that DB won't get their purchase price back, but it might be a worthwhile sale anyway in case the whole Arriva operation ends up as more of a liability than anything else.
It is also necessary to see the issue from the German side. DB will break its €20 billion borrowing limit - set by parliament - this year unless it does something drastic. One of the drastic things being considered is to sell Arriva and various possibilities to achieve this are being studied. The German language news magazine Der Spiegel published an article on 27 March to this effect - it can be found here. The headline reads

Problems with the state company
Deutsche Bahn profit drops by 30 percent
Deutsche Bahn has had a bad year - financially too. The profit has fallen drastically according to information available to SPIEGEL. The profit is not enough to even pay a dividend to the state.

It goes on to say:
Concerning the funding gap of the railway, the only suggestion currently on the table is to sell the British subsidiary Arriva. The company operates public transport services in many European countries, including water taxis in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, as well as some of the red buses in London. Arriva is currently valued in the business books of the railway with approximately 2.5 billion euro. It is unclear how much a sale would actually bring in Brexit times.

Earlier articles in Der Spiegel stated that Arriva is profitable but the profits are invested outside Germany and bring no direct benefit to DB or the German taxpayer. A dividend is paid to DB but the amount is not sufficient to help plug DB's financial hole.

So, in a very real sense, it is a fire sale.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It goes on to say:
Earlier articles in Der Spiegel stated that Arriva is profitable but the profits are invested outside Germany and bring no direct benefit to DB or the German taxpayer. A dividend is paid to DB but the amount is not sufficient to help plug DB's financial hole.

Don't tell the RMT and TSSA.
They've been banging on for years about how shocking it is that we subsidise German taxpayers.
 

darloscott

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Does anyone know whether the FlixMobility group would have the revenue/turnover to be able to achieve a purchase of a business this size? They're expanding very aggressively across Europe and purchasing a business like Arriva would give them access to local markets as well as potentially opening new countries up to their own network.
 

thenorthern

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I would think Brexit will have something to do with DB looking at offloading Arriva the two main reasons are:

1, uncertainty about the future state of the United Kingdom economy post Brexit or how easy it will be to do business between the United Kingdom and EU post Brexit.

2, there has been a lot of unhappiness from the public, unions and politicians about EU state operators bidding/running franchises in the United Kingdom which at the moment there is a requirement to award a franchise to any EU company that offers the best value for money regardless of its ownership. Post Brexit I think the DfT will be less likely to award a franchise to a state-owned company from another EU country especially given that most EU railway markets are not as open as the UK railway market, the TOCs owned by governments in other countries know this and DB may be looking to offload Arriva so that as a private company it will be able to bid for things much easier.

I am aware that closing off the market to state-owned companies from EU countries would be the DfT cutting off its nose to spite its face however its an issue that unites people on the left and right of the political spectrum.
 

coppercapped

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I would think Brexit will have something to do with DB looking at offloading Arriva the two main reasons are:

1, uncertainty about the future state of the United Kingdom economy post Brexit or how easy it will be to do business between the United Kingdom and EU post Brexit.

2, there has been a lot of unhappiness from the public, unions and politicians about EU state operators bidding/running franchises in the United Kingdom which at the moment there is a requirement to award a franchise to any EU company that offers the best value for money regardless of its ownership. Post Brexit I think the DfT will be less likely to award a franchise to a state-owned company from another EU country especially given that most EU railway markets are not as open as the UK railway market, the TOCs owned by governments in other countries know this and DB may be looking to offload Arriva so that as a private company it will be able to bid for things much easier.

I am aware that closing off the market to state-owned companies from EU countries would be the DfT cutting off its nose to spite its face however its an issue that unites people on the left and right of the political spectrum.
No.
DB's proposed sale or flotation of Arriva has nothing to do with Brexit concerns. If you read the article in Der Spiegel which I quoted earlier you will see that the ONLY consideration is DB's need for an influx of cash. There are many such reports in other German papers and news media.
Brexit /may/ have an effect on the /size/ of the cheque, but the need for the sale is driven solely and entirely by DB's legal requirement not to exceed its debt limit.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Two current UK franchise bidders/holders from abroad, MTR and JR East, and their various supporting banks, have nothing to do with the EU.
Also EU state railways are opening up rapidly as per the 4th railway package, and all the incumbents are preparing their defence by bidding for TOCs in each other's backyards.
National Express (despite exiting the UK rail market) and Go Ahead are two UK companies trying to expand across Europe.
Stagecoach, First and Virgin are either not interested or have more pressing problems with their current networks - and Brexit might be affecting their stance.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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All the media reports seem to be based on the same speculative Mail on Sunday item by City reporters.
Nothing yet in "serious" output as far as I can see.
It's about as certain as a legal challenge to the DfT by Stagecoach, where they are just "demanding answers" at the moment.
 

Killingworth

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No chance! I'm not sure that Stagecoach have the resources to buy Arriva

Stagecoach won't want to buy all of Arriva to keep. Nevertheless it's in their interest to examine whether they may be able to benefit by buying parts of Arriva's UK business, be it bus or rail. That would not rule out a sole deal, or even as part of a consortium for the entire international business, with break-up subsequent to the change of control. There are many options possible. We'll have to wait and see.
 

cactustwirly

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Stagecoach won't want to buy all of Arriva to keep. Nevertheless it's in their interest to examine whether they may be able to benefit by buying parts of Arriva's UK business, be it bus or rail. That would not rule out a sole deal, or even as part of a consortium for the entire international business, with break-up subsequent to the change of control. There are many options possible. We'll have to wait and see.

They are very unlikely to be allowed to buy UK bus operations, by the CMA
 
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