Police called as commuter sits in empty first class zone on packed rush-hour train

hwl · 3 Apr 2019

Journeyman said:
Yes, I appreciate that - you'd need to make sure other trains could take up the slack before you could do much.

Both LNWR and Northern are still in the early part of their franchises and Northern have enough issues on their plates dealing with adding extra capacity already...

Hence not a good time to be rethinking XC.

RailUK Forums

6Gman · 3 Apr 2019

nanstallon said:
Agreed. The Voyagers are a disaster, sometimes mitigated by coupling two sets together to form a decent length train, from the customer's point of view. They epitomise the British mentality of maximise profit, provide minimal service and the customer can whistle.

Willing to pay a higher fare?

underbank · 3 Apr 2019

Isn't the real problem the lack of consistency between TOCs and even between guards/train managers in each TOC. This guy has been allowed to sit in first class previously when it's been busy - why different this time? There should be clear rules as to when it's allowed and it should be policed/supervised consistently.

swt_passenger · 3 Apr 2019

underbank said:
Isn't the real problem the lack of consistency between TOCs and even between guards/train managers in each TOC. This guy has been allowed to sit in first class previously when it's been busy - why different this time? There should be clear rules as to when it's allowed and it should be policed/supervised consistently.

I suspect/suggest he means he has sat in First before without being challenged. That isn’t necessarily the same thing as being allowed...

Darandio · 3 Apr 2019

underbank said:
This guy has been allowed to sit in first class previously when it's been busy - why different this time?

To be fair we don't know this, unless i'm missing part of the news article it doesn't say anywhere that he has been allowed previously, only that he has done this before and there hasn't been an issue. Maybe that is because he was never caught until now.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2019

mrcheek said:
I resent most strongly when I pay extra for First Class, and then somebody who hasnt paid that extra thinks that he has the right to be there

I do as well, but in the event of severe overcrowding the most sensible thing to do is to declassify and give me a partial refund, which is what LNR does on particularly busy trains.

Metal_gee_man · 3 Apr 2019

If its not declassified then no standard fare paying passenger should be in 1st class!

Being a SE passenger I've been on quite a few services recently that have had 1st declassified due to overcrowding, but as always this is TM/OBM/TC job to make that call that their service is overcrowded, I will be the first person to jump at the opportunity to get out of cattle class in peak and get a seat!

So is it a TM / OBM / TC that makes the decision or must they ask permission from a controller to declassify and (potentially lose revenue)

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
So is it a TM / OBM / TC that makes the decision or must they ask permission from a controller to declassify and (potentially lose revenue)

Depends on the TOC. On LNR (and LM before it) it happens so often that it has to be guard discretion. Usually they wait until departure from Euston (so the majority of 1st passengers already have a seat) then announce it.

infobleep · 3 Apr 2019

43096 said:
I’ve seen people being charged by a FGW RPI for standing in first class between Paddington and Reading. No doubt being first off at Reading was part of why the passengers did it. I have also seen people being charged for walking through into FC on the way into Paddington so they can be first off.

I thought it wasn't against the regulations to walk through. Or did they stop for long enough to class them as standing.

Then it leads to the question, how long does someone need to be stationary to be classed as standing?

infobleep · 3 Apr 2019

al78 said:
Hard luck, the consequence of using public transport in a highly populated country where a large number of people want to travel at the same time is that you will have to stand. The alternative is don't travel at peak times if possible.

Is it hard luck that they put first class on a short train with no space?

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2019

infobleep said:
I thought it wasn't against the regulations to walk through. Or did they stop for long enough to class them as standing.

Then it leads to the question, how long does someone need to be stationary to be classed as standing?

As soon as you stop wilfully, I would say. Obviously stopping to let someone past doesn't count.

221129 · 3 Apr 2019

infobleep said:
I thought it wasn't against the regulations to walk through. Or did they stop for long enough to class them as standing.

Then it leads to the question, how long does someone need to be stationary to be classed as standing?

On these services first class is at one end of the train. So there is no real excuse to be walking through.

farleigh · 3 Apr 2019

There is a guide in the Guardian today on how to 'blag" a journey in First Class on a standard ticket.

Darandio · 3 Apr 2019

farleigh said:
There is a guide in the Guardian today on how to 'blag" a journey in First Class on a standard ticket.

There is a fair bit of parody about it though.

Stigy · 3 Apr 2019

farleigh said:
There is a guide in the Guardian today on how to 'blag" a journey in First Class on a standard ticket.

Hopefully not as inaccurate and farcicle as the article the Eavenibg standard ran a few years ago about Penalty Fares

infobleep · 3 Apr 2019

221129 said:
On these services first class is at one end of the train. So there is no real excuse to be walking through.

But it's not about excuses, it's about whether walking through is against the regulations or not.

swt_passenger · 3 Apr 2019

infobleep said:
But it's not about excuses, it's about whether walking through is against the regulations or not.

It isn’t against the regulations. You can read them earlier in this thread...

Stigy · 3 Apr 2019

swt_passenger said:
It isn’t against the regulations. You can read them earlier in this thread...

Indeed, however the person this this scenario was sat in First I believe?

AM9 · 3 Apr 2019

Stigy said:
Hopefully not as inaccurate and farcicle as the article the Eavenibg standard ran a few years ago about Penalty Fares

Exactly what is the 'Eavenibg standard'?

swt_passenger · 3 Apr 2019

Stigy said:
Indeed, however the person this this scenario was sat in First I believe?

Yes. But Infobleep was asking specifically about walking through?

tsr · 3 Apr 2019

AM9 said:
Exactly what is the 'Eavenibg standard'?

Presumably a deliberate typo in the same way that many people rename the “Guardian” as the “Grauniad”.

(This is usually a comment against the editing and proofreading skills of the staff of a particular newspaper.)

AM9 · 3 Apr 2019

tsr said:
Presumably a deliberate typo in the same way that many people rename the “Guardian” as the “Grauniad”.

(This is usually a comment against the editing and proofreading skills of the staff of a particular newspaper.)

How peurile.

43096 · 3 Apr 2019

infobleep said:
I thought it wasn't against the regulations to walk through. Or did they stop for long enough to class them as standing.

Then it leads to the question, how long does someone need to be stationary to be classed as standing?

If you are walking through first class coach H (as was) of an HST as it heads into Paddington, you’re clearly not heading to standard and the chances are you won’t be in possession of the required accreditation to access the next vehicle (the power car).

I believe some EMT crews have a neat solution when heading into St Pancras with first leading: they put a catering trolley in the corridor next to the kitchen area.

Stigy · 3 Apr 2019

tsr said:
Presumably a deliberate typo in the same way that many people rename the “Guardian” as the “Grauniad”.

(This is usually a comment against the editing and proofreading skills of the staff of a particular newspaper.)

Or the Faily Wail/Daily Fail? :lol:

In my case, no. It was simply a typo as I’m using my phone to type.

mmh · 3 Apr 2019

221129 said:
On these services first class is at one end of the train. So there is no real excuse to be walking through.

I don't understand why some people are in such a rush they walk through to the end of a train to get off, so I never have but there are perfectly reasonable "excuses" to walk through, you've just got on the train and the door happened to be in first class, or a reasonably frequent reason I have - to use the toilet.

I'll continue to have no qualms whatsoever about doing so.

nanstallon · 3 Apr 2019

6Gman said:
Willing to pay a higher fare?

No; the present fares are high enough.

AM9 · 3 Apr 2019

Stigy said:
Or the Faily Wail/Daily Fail?

In my case, no. It was simply a typo as I’m using my phone to type.

OK, no problem. I find using phones and tablets for text entry prone to typos too.
The deliberate 'Grauniad', 'Torygraph' & 'Daily Wail' type of facetious misnaming is at best, boring and in many cases more pathetic than whatever the poster is claiming to be a failing of the target.

6Gman · 3 Apr 2019

nanstallon said:
No; the present fares are high enough.

So how are the longer trains to be paid for?

6Gman · 3 Apr 2019

infobleep said:
But it's not about excuses, it's about whether walking through is against the regulations or not.

Walking through for a legitimate purpose is permitted e.g. where the First is in the middle of the train (Desiros), you're looking for the TM, you've boarded in the First Class section and you're heading for Standard etc.

It is not permitted if you are walking through in order to exit at the front of the train (e.g. on the approach to Euston).

mmh · 3 Apr 2019

6Gman said:
Walking through for a legitimate purpose is permitted e.g. where the First is in the middle of the train (Desiros), you're looking for the TM, you've boarded in the First Class section and you're heading for Standard etc.

It is not permitted if you are walking through in order to exit at the front of the train (e.g. on the approach to Euston).

Where are these legitimate purposes defined? Am I allowed to use the luxury of the first class toilet?

Police called as commuter sits in empty first class zone on packed rush-hour train

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