Bletchleyite
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No, this isn't allowed.
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Police called as commuter sits in empty first class zone on packed rush-hour train
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No, this isn't allowed.
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Where is that defined?
I surely can't be the only person who's done so on here, and sees nothing wrong with it.
First class clearly isn't needed if nobody is sat there, and should be removed if Standard class is that overcrowded.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You are not allowed to remain in a First Class coach. Using the toilet is, like standing in the vestibule, remaining in a First Class coach.
swj99
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I can see why people get sick of short formed services and being packed in like sardines. It's not as if the railway companies aren't aware of the demand for space on their peak time services, or the problems which arise regarding the management of passenger accommodation. If the industry provided a more flexible service, and took a less hostile attitude towards passengers, I suspect there would be far fewer situations like this anyway. Indeed some of the comments on here do the railway industry very little credit, and I can't help wondering what a potential rail passenger might think if they were reading this thread.
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Where does it say he was being obnoxious, and who is qualified to decide what is obnoxious and what isn't ?
What was his attitude ? I can't find anything in the story where he's told anyone what it is.
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Where does it say he was being obnoxious, and who is qualified to decide what is obnoxious and what isn't ?
There's not a lot in that report to suggest he was being difficult. From the quotes in the report, he seems to be quite polite and rational.
Plenty of people have given up on the railways and do just that.
Fair point, although I don't think he was asking for sympathy, rather just trying to draw attention to what he believes is an unsatisfactory situation on a busy train.
What was his attitude ? I can't find anything in the story where he's told anyone what it is.
Personal attack ? Er, not at all.
That can't be the definition, as a coach can be composite. Accommodation marked as first class, sure.
Are there trains with toilets with first class stickers? I don't think there are. Happy to be corrected.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The toilets don't need the stickers. A coach which only contains First Class is First Class from gangway centre to gangway centre, hence why you can't stand in those vestibules as has been explained above.
of course there’s not. He went to the papers, he’s hardly going to admit being ‘difficult’
I've used the toilet in coach G if both toilets in E are occupied or out of use. It's never been a problem.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Whether the TOC chooses to bother enforcing it or not is slightly by the by - it's still part of First Class.
By that logic the toilets on 4 VEP units were first class because they were at the first class end of the driving trailers. Some HST (those with the micro buffets) had first class coaches adjacent to standard. Can you imagine if GWR tried to charge people first class fare for using the toilet next to standard? I doubt any court would convict them if they refused to pay.
Again, I'll ask where this is defined.
You're familiar with Virgin's 221s. If you're sat in coach D (the former hybrid standard class coach next to first class) your nearest toilet is in the first class coach, and to reach it you don't walk on the hallowed first class carpet. There are stickers on the gangway doors indicating first/standard, but I'll bet there's a WC engaged/free light in the pleb coach and the directional signs don't tell you to walk two coaches down past the super-cramped voyager buffet area just so the first class bog doesn't get a second class bottom on it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
GWR have charged people the First Class fare for standing in the First Class vestibule.
Is there any evidence for that other than anecdotes on here, where to be brutally frank some seem a little fixated by rules?
There were (it is reported) people sitting there.
Yes, I have observed this several times.
My observations were whilst seated in the restaurant of the 18-03 departure from London. Persons standing in the vestibules between coaches F and G were threatened with being charged the first class fare. Most moved, but the odd one had to pay up.
Reading commuters liked to stand there even when seats were available in standard class, so as to nearest the exit at Reading.
If a member of railway staff instructs someone to do something (reasonable), and the person does not follow the instruction, I would consider that a bit of a personal attack on that member of staff.
Yet if the BTP asked the same thing, most passengers would follow.
The customer has decided the railway staff member is not worth listening to.
nanstallon
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That is up to the TOC. The customer has paid for a service, and it is up to the TOC to ensure reasonable comfort,including a seat - at least on a long journey. In any other consumer transaction, the customer has some rights. Why is the railway different?
With fares being ridiculously overpriced as they are, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect a seat. First class should be abolished anyway, they dont have it on EasyJet, which is the railways competitor. Rail is no longer some posh gracious means of transport policed by multitudes of little Hitlers.
but there were people sat there. People who had paid the proper price for their tickets. Train companies make far more money off First Class passengers than they do off Standard Class. First Class passengers are subsidising the rest
nanstallon
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How ridiculous! Should courts spend time dealing with a prosecution for daring to use the wrong toilets? The evidence of Harry Jobsworth, conductor, for the prosecution - "I saw this guy going into the toilet in First Class. He looked too scruffy to be a First Class customer, so I waited outside the toilet in priority to my other duties, and five minutes later he emerged. I asked to see his ticket, and as it was only a Standard Class ticket I asked him for £500, being a penalty fare. This was twice the full First Class fare for the journey he was making. He declined to pay, so I took his name and address and told him he might be prosecuted for travelling First Class on a Standard Class ticket."
I thought Brexit was a farce, but this beats it any day of the week.
nanstallon
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Only because they choose to. And don't forget the jolly old taxpayer, who doesn't have the choice.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
On planes you use the toilet in your class of service. There are solid reasons for keeping First Class vestibules clear - part of the improved service is easier access to/from the train and toilets by not having to push through people.
I haven't seen it in the UK for a while, but on some older DB stock the First Class toilets are better appointed - larger, for instance.
Journeyman
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The railway has a lot of competitors, including BA who have business class on domestic flights - it's insanely expensive, but clearly enough people use it for it to be worthwhile.
First class from Edinburgh to London starts from about £60, which is hardly a lot of money, and is very popular. I use it regularly.
nanstallon
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You shouldn't have to push through people anyway, even in Standard Class!
The way you wrote that makes me suspect you may decide to protest by upgrading yourself to first class from time to time?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, but that is how things are, particularly on commuter trains.
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