How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

Maybach · 2 Apr 2019

Chris Milner’s editorial in the new issue of ‘Railway Magazine’ makes for grim reading. I hadn’t realised that the West Somerset Railway was on the verge of bankruptcy. Apparently, its wage costs were £1.25m in 2018 on an average turnover of £3m:

“When a line such as the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway can manage with just seven paid staff for its 14-mile length, then 50 staff for a 22-mile line is likely to ring alarm bells throughout the heritage railway movement especially in what is a volunteer led sector…The WSR isn’t the first to face a major financial crisis and probably won’t be the last.”

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dgl · 2 Apr 2019

As has been previous said if more railways could do what the Swanage Railway achieves then most would have more of a draw for more non-enthusiasts although even they are not immune from the tightening of belts.

Whilst it's nice to go from one town to another, or to connect with NR to simulate more of a proper railway when most people will be arriving at there by car anyway having a large carpark at the starting station, enough track for a decent but not too long of a ride, an anchor destination and beautiful scenery is the perfect combination. Even better if it helps to reduce congestion in the area.

Paul Hitchcock · 2 Apr 2019

Maybach said:
Chris Milner’s editorial in the new issue of ‘Railway Magazine’ makes for grim reading. I hadn’t realised that the West Somerset Railway was on the verge of bankruptcy. Apparently, its wage costs were £1.25m in 2018 on an average turnover of £3m:

“When a line such as the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway can manage with just seven paid staff for its 14-mile length, then 50 staff for a 22-mile line is likely to ring alarm bells throughout the heritage railway movement especially in what is a volunteer led sector…The WSR isn’t the first to face a major financial crisis and probably won’t be the last.”

I see where you are coming from but IMHO this sort of argument can be a little simplistic. For example, do the respective staffing figures include catering people or are some of these facilities franchised out? Catering can be intensely profitable.

Again IMHO, apart from the convoluted structure of the WSR, the real problem seems to be its excessive length. This reduces the "take" which can be extracted per mile and makes staffing by unpaid labour more problematical.

Journeyman · 2 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I see where you are coming from but IMHO this sort of argument can be a little simplistic. For example, do the respective staffing figures include catering people or are some of these facilities franchised out? Catering can be intensely profitable.

Again IMHO, apart from the convoluted structure of the WSR, the real problem seems to be its excessive length. This reduces the "take" which can be extracted per mile and makes staffing by unpaid labour more problematical.

I think comparing length to number of volunteers is a bit apples-and-oranges. Every railway is different, and the number of paid staff will depend on a number of factors, in particular whether it's possible to get the skills you need from an entirely volunteer base. Volunteers can be highly motivated, but a lot of them will lack some of the very specialised skills and knowledge you now need to run a complex operation under the regulations now in place.

It could be that the GWR happens to have suitable people available happy to give their services for free, but the WSR doesn't.

Cowley · 2 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I see where you are coming from but IMHO this sort of argument can be a little simplistic. For example, do the respective staffing figures include catering people or are some of these facilities franchised out? Catering can be intensely profitable.

Again IMHO, apart from the convoluted structure of the WSR, the real problem seems to be its excessive length. This reduces the "take" which can be extracted per mile and makes staffing by unpaid labour more problematical.

The length definitely is a problem with the WSR. The rarely used bit that links Bishops Lydeard to the mainline is as long as many preserved railways!
The trouble is cutting the line down probably wouldn’t achieve much either because would you keep the rural ‘nowhere much’ to ‘somewhere a little bit more important’ section, or the marooned seaside end?
50 members of staff does seem quite high though, even if that includes the catering side of things.

Maybach · 2 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I see where you are coming from but IMHO this sort of argument can be a little simplistic. For example, do the respective staffing figures include catering people or are some of these facilities franchised out? Catering can be intensely profitable.

You're right. The WSR is facing a number of economic challenges of which rising wage costs is only one, albeit a big one. There's a full article on the sorry saga of the WSR in the new 'Railway Magazine' which (I have to admit) I haven't studied yet; that may provide a more detailed analysis than simply quoting from the editorial!

nanstallon · 4 Apr 2019

Bald Rick said:
I just don’t get it. Particularly, in the second example, where it seems we had invaded someone’s private plaything. The signaller in the ‘box was particularly grumpy, although that might have been something to do with getting my then 4 year old to tap the block bell six times to see if it stirred him from his sofa.

Come on, that's being authentic BR. Genuine heritage railways need some of these in the booking office - 'wadderuwant? He isn't under 16, ...'. I remember as a 12 year old trying to buy a day return from Brighton to the Bluebell line (they had inclusive tickets), and being refused a child's ticket (it was 14 in those days). I wasn't even tall, and my voice hadn't broken! I got round it by going to the other booking office (stations beginning M to Z) and getting a ticket to Wivelsfield, and booking again from there!

43096 · 5 Apr 2019

nanstallon said:
Come on, that's being authentic BR. Genuine heritage railways need some of these in the booking office - 'wadderuwant? He isn't under 16, ...'. I remember as a 12 year old trying to buy a day return from Brighton to the Bluebell line (they had inclusive tickets), and being refused a child's ticket (it was 14 in those days). I wasn't even tall, and my voice hadn't broken! I got round it by going to the other booking office (stations beginning M to Z) and getting a ticket to Wivelsfield, and booking again from there!

No they don’t! That might be how it really was, but heritage railways are selling a service. Essentially people are buying an “experience” of the rose-tinted past: staff with an attitude don’t help that.

nanstallon · 5 Apr 2019

43096 said:
No they don’t! That might be how it really was, but heritage railways are selling a service. Essentially people are buying an “experience” of the rose-tinted past: staff with an attitude don’t help that.

sorry - I had my tongue in my cheek!

Journeyman · 5 Apr 2019

nanstallon said:
sorry - I had my tongue in my cheek!

I think that was fairly obvious, and it's certainly how I interpreted your post.

Most heritage railways try to sell a "golden age of steam" experience that probably never really existed, but that's what brings in the tourists and the money. It's a difficult balance to strike between attracting the "normals" and the enthusiasts - the latter are mainly catered for at galas and other special events these days.

nanstallon · 5 Apr 2019

Journeyman said:
I think that was fairly obvious, and it's certainly how I interpreted your post.

Most heritage railways try to sell a "golden age of steam" experience that probably never really existed, but that's what brings in the tourists and the money. It's a difficult balance to strike between attracting the "normals" and the enthusiasts - the latter are mainly catered for at galas and other special events these days.

Yes, I am with you on that. I do feel that enthusiasts can be a bit fickle, and heritage railways need to make sure that galas cover their costs. Transporting guest locos around the country is quite costly, and I suspect that there isn't going to be much leeway in the future for mistakes. We have been a bit spoilt, and may need to compromise more - but please no fake smokestacks or staged hold-ups!

Journeyman · 5 Apr 2019

nanstallon said:
Yes, I am with you on that. I do feel that enthusiasts can be a bit fickle, and heritage railways need to make sure that galas cover their costs. Transporting guest locos around the country is quite costly, and I suspect that there isn't going to be much leeway in the future for mistakes. We have been a bit spoilt, and may need to compromise more - but please no fake smokestacks or staged hold-ups!

This is true - I wonder if some galas have lost money recently. There certainly seems to be a reticence to hire in locos if they're not going to pull in a large crowd, and a lot of 'spotters seem to want the moon on a stick without digging deep into their pockets for it. A lot of people seem to think that because heritage railways have a largely volunteer workforce, that they must cost peanuts to run, but transporting a loco halfway along the country on the back of a low-loader costs an absolute fortune. You can't get people doing that out of the goodness of their own hearts.

Belperpete · 6 Apr 2019

Maybach said:
“When a line such as the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway can manage with just seven paid staff for its 14-mile length, then 50 staff for a 22-mile line is likely to ring alarm bells throughout the heritage railway movement ”

It is not the 50 staff for the WSR that surprises me, but only 7 staff for the GWR. The preserved railway that I am associated with has considerable volunteer support, but still has far more than 7 paid staff. A number of those work in catering: as food preparation now requires hygiene standards qualifications, these roles are difficult to fill by casual volunteers. However, by far the most paid-staff are involved in loco and carriage maintenance and overhaul, and infrastructure maintenance (not just PW but also signalling, buildings, bridges, etc).

I think a major factor in the difference between GWR and WSR is probably the lines' locations. The GWR is much closer to large centres of population than the WSR. Apart from the obvious benefits of more customers and a larger volunteer pool, perhaps more importantly the closer the volunteers are, the more likely they are to volunteer regularly. A regular volunteer can give the continuity and consistency needed to oversee a task - without a regular volunteer you probably need a member of staff to supervise it. And likewise, if something fails, you need someone local who can fix it quickly.

Unfortunately, if a line becomes too self-sufficient on paid staff, it can become unattractive to volunteers. Volunteers need to feel useful, and if they feel that they are not really needed (because the paid staff have it covered) then they will stop coming, and you can get into a vicious circle where you become ever-more dependent on paid-staff.

Cowley · 6 Apr 2019

Belperpete said:
It is not the 50 staff for the WSR that surprises me, but only 7 staff for the GWR. The preserved railway that I am associated with has considerable volunteer support, but still has far more than 7 paid staff. A number of those work in catering: as food preparation now requires hygiene standards qualifications, these roles are difficult to fill by casual volunteers. However, by far the most paid-staff are involved in loco and carriage maintenance and overhaul, and infrastructure maintenance (not just PW but also signalling, buildings, bridges, etc).

I think a major factor in the difference between GWR and WSR is probably the lines' locations. The GWR is much closer to large centres of population than the WSR. Apart from the obvious benefits of more customers and a larger volunteer pool, perhaps more importantly the closer the volunteers are, the more likely they are to volunteer regularly. A regular volunteer can give the continuity and consistency needed to oversee a task - without a regular volunteer you probably need a member of staff to supervise it. And likewise, if something fails, you need someone local who can fix it quickly.

Unfortunately, if a line becomes too self-sufficient on paid staff, it can become unattractive to volunteers. Volunteers need to feel useful, and if they feel that they are not really needed (because the paid staff have it covered) then they will stop coming, and you can get into a vicious circle where you become ever-more dependent on paid-staff.

Very true Belperpete.
The WSRs catchment includes Taunton, Bristol, Exeter and the surrounding area. But it’s not exactly The Midlands...
How have say - The North Yorkshire Moors managed in an equally sparsely populated area?
Some of the people that volunteer on the NYMR must travel a long way to make it all happen. Yet you very rarely hear of any problems on that particular line even though it’s of a similar length and must require a fair amount of commitment from the volunteers to contribute to the running of it?
I can only assume that it basically comes down to the way it and its staff are managed?
Over the last decade there always seems to be issues simmering (quite publicly) beneath the surface on the West Somerset. And that can’t help much when you’re trying to recruit volunteers...
I mean who wants to get involved with politics when all you want to do is find something relaxing and enjoyable to do in your free time?

I really hope that they sort all this stuff out, and soon.
It’s a beautiful and varied railway. It should be thriving at the moment.

Paul Hitchcock · 6 Apr 2019

Cowley said:
Very true Belperpete.
The WSRs catchment includes Taunton, Bristol, Exeter and the surrounding area. But it’s not exactly The Midlands...
How have say - The North Yorkshire Moors managed in an equally sparsely populated area?
Some of the people that volunteer on the NYMR must travel a long way to make it all happen. Yet you very rarely hear of any problems on that particular line even though it’s of a similar length and must require a fair amount of commitment from the volunteers to contribute to the running of it?
I can only assume that it basically comes down to the way it and its staff are managed?
Over the last decade there always seems to be issues simmering (quite publicly) beneath the surface on the West Somerset. And that can’t help much when you’re trying to recruit volunteers...
I mean who wants to get involved with politics when all you want to do is find something relaxing and enjoyable to do in your free time?

I really hope that they sort all this stuff out, and soon.
It’s a beautiful and varied railway. It should be thriving at the moment.

There are rumours around, worryingly from "good" sources, that other places have their difficulties. However, few places have such a complicated structure as the W.S.R. to aggravate personality tensions inevitable in any group of humans. Basically IMHO the West Somerset is far too long and fixated in running mainline type trains to the detriment of its civil engineering wellbeing.

Here is an example, from personal experience of a (much) smaller organisation where the museum group planned new display panels. The involvement was much wider than the purely museum people and assistance was given generously. So the finished product is "owned" widely which fits in with the overall ethos of the line where the structure is as simple as is possible and every last nut and bolt or square metre of land is owned by one membership body/charitable trust/statutory operator. One sole organisation.

EvanDMU · 6 Apr 2019

Paul said - There are rumours around, worryingly from "good" sources, that other places have their difficulties. However, few places have such a complicated structure as the W.S.R. to aggravate personality tensions inevitable in any group of humans. Basically IMHO the West Somerset is far too long and fixated in running mainline type trains to the detriment of its civil engineering wellbeing.

Information circulated to members and shareholders at Llangollen.
The AGM for both the Trust and the PLC has been deferred from June 2019 to
September 2019 on advice for our accountants. I will inform every one of the
new date as soon as it has been decided.

Kind regards

Liz

Liz McGuinness

Chairman Llangollen Railway PLC & Trust

Shenandoah · 6 Apr 2019

EvanDMU said:
Paul said - There are rumours around, worryingly from "good" sources, that other places have their difficulties. However, few places have such a complicated structure as the W.S.R. to aggravate personality tensions inevitable in any group of humans. Basically IMHO the West Somerset is far too long and fixated in running mainline type trains to the detriment of its civil engineering wellbeing.

Information circulated to members and shareholders at Llangollen.
The AGM for both the Trust and the PLC has been deferred from June 2019 to
September 2019 on advice for our accountants. I will inform every one of the
new date as soon as it has been decided.

Kind regards

Liz

Liz McGuinness

Chairman Llangollen Railway PLC & Trust

This post is guaranteed to set a few hares running.

Titfield · 7 Apr 2019

Gary Boyd Hopes article in The Railway Magazine is a detailed account of the WSR and the actions they are taking. A lot is said about the various WSR organisations working together for the common good / aim. All positive stuff.

But just park that for one moment and concentrate on the fundamentals.

It is said that the line has lost £250K per annum for the past 5 or 6 years exhausting any reserves.
They have a £110K overdraft with Lloyds Bank which based on the way it is described they need to the max.
They have taken out a £200K loan from a specialist provider to be repaid within 18 months.
They need to spend £500K per annum on track renewals each year for the next x years.
They have sold a loco to bring cash in - evidently on top of the £310K (£110K + £200K) above.
They are ceasing work on two locos: 6655 and 44422.

To meet all their commitments and carry out the track renewals it seems to me that the railway will have to outperform financially just about every heritage railway in the uk and also receive a very sizeable amount of money as donations simply to survive. If I have calculated correctly they will need a positive movement of approximately £900K - £1M in the next year just to survive (£500K track, £250K to break even, £140k to repay 2/3rds of loan

There is a lot of speculation that a number of heritage railways are in financial difficulty simply because the cost of operating the railway even with volunteer labour is now more than the organisation can generate from farebox, donations and legacies.

Whilst much is said about increasing revenue is that possible in todays world where the competition amongst tourist attractions seems greater with each year that passes.

Are there sufficient donors to give money to bridge the gap?

or do we have to face the reality that some heritage railways will go to the wall.....

LeylandLen · 7 Apr 2019

I have just had a quick read through this thread. In my opinion , one possible reason that the NYMR and FFestiniog are doing OK is that they both have Webcams at various locations, as does Swanage raillway ( as well as good interesting Websites,)and some other Heritage lines.I use Ralcam.UK to look at them . I understand the obvious point that Heritage railways prefer 'real' visitors on the trains, or visiting stations ,but having webcams, maybe supported by suitable advertising (as on the Webcam at Dawlish. Yes I know its not Heritage, but advertising is realted to Dawlish ) could be a way of generating interest , more income, maybe with paid subscriptions? .Then there is social media, ( Twitter, Facebook , Instagram ,Youtube )where communication about forthcoming events, galas, open days can be publisised at very little cost, just knowledge of how social media works
I know that WSR does have webcams on good locations, but maybe the financial situation is not that good , as mentioned in earlier posts.
Heritage Railways are in competition with many other activities in this internet world, and they should make use of it with obvious safeguards such as no deliberate intrusion on privacy, although with so many cameras in towns and cities as well as National Railways ,I think we all have to live with them ..!

Belperpete · 7 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
. However, few places have such a complicated structure as the W.S.R. to aggravate personality tensions inevitable in any group of humans. Basically IMHO the West Somerset is far too long and fixated in running mainline type trains to the detriment of its civil engineering wellbeing.

The Ffestiniog has a complicated structure, with separate Trust, Company and Society, but seems to do OK. It also ran with a sizeable overdraft for many years, the legacy of the rebuilding to Blaenau.

I do agree that the WSR seems fixated on mainline trains (I had to go out of my way to travel behind a pannier when I was last therethere, as I have a photo my father took of me watching a pannier go over Dunster crossing in BR steam days). But at 25 mph, I doubt that a mainline loco causes significantly more wear than a tank loco.

LeylandLen said:
In my opinion , one possible reason that the NYMR and FFestiniog are doing OK is that they both have Webcams at various locations, as does Swanage raillway ..... I know that WSR does have webcams on good locations

You seem to have shot your own argument in the foot! If the WSR has good webcams as well, that can't be what they are doing wrong.

What many people don't realise is that webcams can cost significant money to run. Webcams can require significant bandwidth, which costs money. In addition, if you are to get someone to advertise on the webcam page, they will expect the webcam to be reasonably reliable. Having someone always available to fix problems with the webcam may not be easy. If all that a webcam does is satisfy the curiosity of people who never contribute to the railway, then it is questionable if the cost is justified. If the WSR is looking for economies, perhaps it should look at how much it is paying for its webcams?

Paul Hitchcock · 7 Apr 2019

Belperpete said:
The Ffestiniog has a complicated structure, with separate Trust, Company and Society, but seems to do OK. It also ran with a sizeable overdraft for many years, the legacy of the rebuilding to Blaenau.

I do agree that the WSR seems fixated on mainline trains (I had to go out of my way to travel behind a pannier when I was last therethere, as I have a photo my father took of me watching a pannier go over Dunster crossing in BR steam days). But at 25 mph, I doubt that a mainline loco causes significantly more wear than a tank loco.

I have no expertise on the F.R. structure, but the place of the various organisations in the pecking order does not seem to be the cause of dispute. It is still much simpler than the W.S.R. where the County Council as landowner has also to boil and bubble in the cauldron.

The effect of steam locomotive weight on rail and structures is not just one of static weight but of hammer blow as well and all sorts of things like periodicity and weight per foot run have to be considered. Again I am no expert but I do know that Halls, Castles, 56xx etc. were never allowed as far as Minehead in G.W.R./B.R. days. Not just rail condition seems to be involved but civil engineering structures below rail level.

In fairness to the W.S.R., they are by no means the only steam railway to suffer from what I have called "Big Chufferitis".

Cowley · 7 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I have no expertise on the F.R. structure, but the place of the various organisations in the pecking order does not seem to be the cause of dispute. It is still much simpler than the W.S.R. where the County Council as landowner has also to boil and bubble in the cauldron.

The effect of steam locomotive weight on rail and structures is not just one of static weight but of hammer blow as well and all sorts of things like periodicity and weight per foot run have to be considered. Again I am no expert but I do know that Halls, Castles, 56xx etc. were never allowed as far as Minehead in G.W.R./B.R. days. Not just rail condition seems to be involved but civil engineering structures below rail level.

In fairness to the W.S.R., they are by no means the only steam railway to suffer from what I have called "Big Chufferitis".

It’s interesting to note that this years diesel gala won’t be featuring the planned visiting 46010, the WSRs 47 or a visiting 50.
37248 looks like being the heaviest loco.

alexl92 · 7 Apr 2019

Cowley said:
It’s interesting to note that this years diesel gala won’t be featuring the planned visiting 46010, the WSRs 47 or a visiting 50.
37248 looks like being the heaviest loco.

The Fifty Fund have said that 40s, Peaks, 47s and 50s are banned from the line for the foreseeable as the infrastructure isn’t up to it.

Does anyone know where 44422 will end up? As mentioned above it is leaving the WSR.

underbank · 7 Apr 2019

Belperpete said:
What many people don't realise is that webcams can cost significant money to run. Webcams can require significant bandwidth, which costs money. In addition, if you are to get someone to advertise on the webcam page, they will expect the webcam to be reasonably reliable. Having someone always available to fix problems with the webcam may not be easy. If all that a webcam does is satisfy the curiosity of people who never contribute to the railway, then it is questionable if the cost is justified. If the WSR is looking for economies, perhaps it should look at how much it is paying for its webcams?

I think webcams do drive business to the heritage railways. They've certainly driven me to them! I've been a railcam subscriber for a couple of years. Their heritage cams have already meant I've been to Llangollen and Tallylyn for the first time. This summer, I'm going to stay for a week close to the WSR and am planning to holiday in Swanage next year. I'd have done none of that if it hadn't been for their webcams. They've really given me the impetus to visit the heritage lines which I've not yet been to. Being from the north, I had very little (if any) awareness of those Southern heritage lines and they wouldn't have been on my radar at all - in fact, I holidayed on the South Coast about 3/4 years ago, and it never crossed my mind to seek out heritage lines down there.

YorkshireBear · 8 Apr 2019

As a civil engineering volunteer on a heritage railway I find the news on the WSR slightly concerning, in that if you need to be spending that much on track renewals you really have neglected the infrastructure. Yes where I volunteer is shorter (5 miles) but £500K per year for X years is a huge huge sum of money.

The danger with any hobby, you lose track of the things you need to keep the money in the black!

Journeyman · 8 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
In fairness to the W.S.R., they are by no means the only steam railway to suffer from what I have called "Big Chufferitis".

The problem is that a big engine does pull in the punters, but possibly not enough for all the additional coal, wear and tear etc. Look at how many crowds gather when a railway gets an A4 in, or is visited by Flying Scotsman or Tornado. They look impressive, but must be a nightmare from an economics perspective.

One of the few railways that seems justifiably able to use "big engines" is the Mid-Hants, as it has a very stiff gradient out of Alton that needs to be taken from a standing start, but most should probably concentrate on using smaller engines.

I'm no great fan of industrial tanks, but there's a reason a lot of railways make such extensive use of them.

Paul Hitchcock · 8 Apr 2019

Journeyman said:
The problem is that a big engine does pull in the punters, but possibly not enough for all the additional coal, wear and tear etc. Look at how many crowds gather when a railway gets an A4 in, or is visited by Flying Scotsman or Tornado. They look impressive, but must be a nightmare from an economics perspective.

One of the few railways that seems justifiably able to use "big engines" is the Mid-Hants, as it has a very stiff gradient out of Alton that needs to be taken from a standing start, but most should probably concentrate on using smaller engines.

I'm no great fan of industrial tanks, but there's a reason a lot of railways make such extensive use of them.

I gather, again from a "good source" that the only steam locomotives that resonate with "normals" are Flying Scotsman and Tornado. The rest are just steam locomotives to them. However I do recall an evidently artistic passenger who was reminded of an Eric Ravilious painting by the sight of a door with leather strap controlled droplight. She knew next to nothing about trains.

E759 · 8 Apr 2019

Train Landscape (1939). Travel First Class on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway to enjoy the full leather strap experience.

HaggisBotherer · 8 Apr 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I gather, again from a "good source" that the only steam locomotives that resonate with "normals" are Flying Scotsman and Tornado.

To this list I think you can safely add Thomas (and to a lesser extent Henry, Percy, James) and any tender loco painted maroon with Hogwarts Express written somewhere on it.

HaggisBotherer · 8 Apr 2019

E759 said:
Train Landscape (1939). Travel First Class on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway to enjoy the full leather strap experience.

You might want to re-phrase that...

How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

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