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Staffordshire Bus News

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Baxenden Bank

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Just driven past the First depot in Newcastle and noticed that there were 4 single decker buses parked in the yard. I thought this depot had been closed but I guess it was just mothballed and is now being part used where necessary?

Thanks for the response. Makes sense to stable buses there that work from Newcastle. Doesn't seem to make sense to keep hold of the building and land just for thus purpose. Surely it would be better turned into cash?

Isn't it that they can't get rid of the lease on it ?

I think you're right. Did First do a sale and leaseback deal, and were looking to novate the lease? The link attached suggests that....

https://www.louis-taylor.co.uk/property/?comid=141+16555


The site appears to be owned by Morbaine Ltd. A property development and investment company based in Widnes, Cheshire.

The Louis Taylor particulars state:
The unit is available by way of an assignment of the existing lease from 1st May 2012 until 30th April 2027 with a tenants break clause at 1st May 2022. The current rent is £135,000 per annum.

Whilst the Vail Williams particulars state:
The unit is available on the basis of a sublease until 30th April 2024, but a longer lease could possibly be negotiated with the superior landlord depending on covenant.
 
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James101

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It looks as if First have had a spot of bother with the electric gates at the Newcastle depot/outstation. A Centano Dart has been utilised as a blockade at the opening to the yard, talk about running on a shoestring!
 

James101

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Just spotted Trident 32081 back on the road after what seemed to be a lengthy absence. It also looked very much repainted, it was previously in a very sorry state. Strangely however if it has been repainted, it's in to Barbie Willow Leaf livery?! If so, perhaps a sort of heritage livery depot pet? Potteries now have this, 2 cream & crimson PMT vehicles (Gemini B7 & Omnicity), a 'Blood & Custard' PMT Omnicity and a PMT 320 Black & Silver Gemini B7. Also in the area is D&G's heritage livery MPD 10 and the recently introduced Turners of Brown Edge style E200 of the 8A.
 

Baxenden Bank

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A series of changes to be introduced in north Staffordshire in April.

Affecting First Potteries services: 5, 8, 11, 12, 21, 22, 23, 25, 32, 98, 99, X32
D & G services: 2, 10, 14, 842A

Timetables available at http://www.stokebus.info/changes.htm
D & G service 2 no longer running between Hanley and Newcastle
 

davehsug

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A series of changes to be introduced in north Staffordshire in April.

Affecting First Potteries services: 5, 8, 11, 12, 21, 22, 23, 25, 32, 98, 99, X32
D & G services: 2, 10, 14, 842A

Timetables available at http://www.stokebus.info/changes.htm
D & G service 2 no longer running between Hanley and Newcastle
So 5s reduced to 15 minutes all day, and I lose the 15.58 that I get from Hanley every day because the Scraggs goes too early while Charles Street is closed. Looks like I'll be forced on to the 16 and have to pay the £2.20 instead of £1.80 (or £1.40 on Scraggs)! Doesn't sound much but it's another £2 a week.
 

DJames

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There's changes to Staffordshire services from NXWM too, with the X51 extended from Walsall to Cannock throughout the day Mondays to Saturdays, as opposed to the current limited service at peak times. The X3 is also being extended from Hill Hook to Lichfield, replacing Midland Classic's X12 between Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield.
 

43055

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There's changes to Staffordshire services from NXWM too, with the X51 extended from Walsall to Cannock throughout the day Mondays to Saturdays, as opposed to the current limited service at peak times. The X3 is also being extended from Hill Hook to Lichfield, replacing Midland Classic's X12 between Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield.
I suppose it is a improvement for the X3/X12 as the Litchfield to Sutton section doubles in frequency and gets a Sunday service while there are more afternoon buses on the X12.

Also at the bottom of the page Midland Classic has said there are also other minor changes to other services as well which will be announced soon.
 

DenmarkRail

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Huge failures for D&G bus... 25 mins late for their first 0800hrs 14 service. Major inconvenience, and when challenged the D&G second member of staff (not the driver) decided to argue with passengers about how he isn't paid before 0800hrs, and therefore won't make an effort to get there on time... Very rude indeed! At least they take Apple pay now!!
 

Baxenden Bank

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New all-operator ticket launched last Monday (15 April) covering Staffordshire.
'The Knot'
£7 for all day travel.
Which seems low given that a First Potteries Network day ticket is also £7. Why pay for just First when you can go all-operator?
Few details available. First Potteries website has a page with a 'link to Staffordshire County Council website to be inserted here' script.
 

ag51ruk

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New all-operator ticket launched last Monday (15 April) covering Staffordshire.
'The Knot'
£7 for all day travel.
Which seems low given that a First Potteries Network day ticket is also £7. Why pay for just First when you can go all-operator?
Few details available. First Potteries website has a page with a 'link to Staffordshire County Council website to be inserted here' script.

"Local bus operators in Staffordshire including First Potteries, D&G, Arriva, Midland Classic, and National Express West Midlands with support from Staffordshire County Council have all signed up to a new multi-operator bus ticket scheme, giving people the flexibility to use any bus, any time, anywhere across the county of Staffordshire."

https://www.nationalexpressgroup.co...gns-up-to-new-ticket-scheme-in-staffordshire/

Wouldn't be valid in Cheshire East, so First Day Ticket would still be needed for journeys across the border
 

43055

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Midland Classic have resurrected the long gone 405 Ashbourne to Burton on Trent service. It is obviously a return from a schools run but is also running school holidays between Scropton & Burton: http://www.midlandclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/405-1.4.19.pdf
Its certainly a start for something hopefully. Pity its not the other way around as im sure some people would like to have a few hours in Ashboune occasionally.

In other news D&G will be launching a new X41 between Stafford and Alton Towers via Uttoxeter in May.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Four buses worth during the day, taking the off-peak requirement to just 94 buses and a PVR of just one more!
More trimming to evening services, no longer realistic to have an evening social life.
More areas effectively abandoned in terms of any kind of 'full' service, no longer realistic to commute out of standard office hours.
Partial replacements introduced by D & G but only in their standard, hourly, 0930 to 1430 type of service. OK if you are truly desperate but not attractive to anyone else.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Its certainly a start for something hopefully. Pity its not the other way around as im sure some people would like to have a few hours in Ashboune occasionally.

In other news D&G will be launching a new X41 between Stafford and Alton Towers via Uttoxeter in May.
It takes a special skill to time a new service to depart from the railway station (Uttoxeter) two minutes before the train arrives.
 

43055

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It takes a special skill to time a new service to depart from the railway station (Uttoxeter) two minutes before the train arrives.
And 4 mins after on the way back!
Does Uttoxeter only have one train?
The two trains per hour depart within 10 mins of each other but the bus arrives and departs between the two so you are ok if you are going from Stoke or Crewe but have a hour to wait if you are coming from Derby.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Does Uttoxeter only have one train?

One per hour in each direction.

From the Crewe direction, using the X41 via Uttoxeter offers a one-hour time advantage over the 32A, in the morning only.

From the Derby direction, the X41 again offers a one-hour time advantage over the 32A, in the morning only. But could so easily offer a two-hour time advantage.

Further afield, Birmingham is much the same via Stafford (and X41) or Stoke-on-Trent (and 32A). Manchester is quicker via Stoke-on-Trent. Connections to/from London are pretty poor whichever route is chosen.

The country's second largest paying tourist attraction, attracting large numbers of young people.
 

Martin2012

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I noticed that the 2230 journey from Crewe to Hanley is being cut Monday to Saturday which means presumably the last bus back from Crewe will be 2130?

Am pretty sure that at one time there was a 2330 journey from Hanley to Crewe and one from Crewe towards Hanley at around midnight.

Am also pretty sure that at one time the sunday service ran much later than 1930 from Hanley and 2030 from Crewe. Does anyone have any idea when the later Sunday journeys were pulled? Did it coincide with either the remembering from service 20 to Service 3 or the withdrawal of the extension to Leighton or was it done independently of that?
 

James101

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Also part of June changes is D&G doubling their output on the 8A, with additional hourly buses operating as 8B to Brown Edge Schools. Not sure if this is in addition to, or in place of, Stanton’s service 60.

Logic would dictate scheduling the new timetable to allow a 15 minute frequency from Smallthorne to Hanley combined with service 9. The 8A/B & 9, however, are scheduled within 2-3 minutes of each other in both directions. Much like the original incarnation of the 2/9 between Hanley and Newcastle. D&G really don’t seem to help themselves sometimes.
 

The_Train

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Not really news and possibly old information but thought I'd post on here (on the off chance that its of use to a bus fan out there) that when I drove past the mothballed Newcastle depot on Sunday evening, the depot doors were open and there was a plethora of old double decker buses parked in there. First time I've seen the doors open in many years so it caught my attention :E
 

Baxenden Bank

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I noticed that the 2230 journey from Crewe to Hanley is being cut Monday to Saturday which means presumably the last bus back from Crewe will be 2130?

Am pretty sure that at one time there was a 2330 journey from Hanley to Crewe and one from Crewe towards Hanley at around midnight.

Am also pretty sure that at one time the sunday service ran much later than 1930 from Hanley and 2030 from Crewe. Does anyone have any idea when the later Sunday journeys were pulled? Did it coincide with either the remembering from service 20 to Service 3 or the withdrawal of the extension to Leighton or was it done independently of that?

On Sundays there was an hourly service until 2230 ex Hanley to Crewe / 2234 ex Crewe to Hanley until 19/4/15.
On weekdays there was a 2330 ex Crewe until 8/1/17. Ex Hanley there was a 2330 until 19/4/15.

In January 2016, First Potteries had 13 buses in service after 2400, From next week they will have just one, and that is only just. If the driver puts his clog down and arrives in Stone early it will be none after midnight!
After 2300 (pub kicking-out time) the figures are 25 and 6 for January 2016/June 2019 respectively. Just six buses serving a population of over 350,000 people. Who will rid us of this troublesome priest bus operator.
After 2200 the figures are 26 and 8.
After 2100 (bingo kicking-out time) 28 and 14.
The evening service halved in just 3.5 years.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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On Sundays there was an hourly service until 2230 ex Hanley to Crewe / 2234 ex Crewe to Hanley until 19/4/15.
On weekdays there was a 2330 ex Crewe until 8/1/17. Ex Hanley there was a 2330 until 19/4/15.

In January 2016, First Potteries had 13 buses in service after 2400, From next week they will have just one, and that is only just. If the driver puts his clog down and arrives in Stone early it will be none after midnight!
After 2300 (pub kicking-out time) the figures are 25 and 6 for January 2016/June 2019 respectively. Just six buses serving a population of over 350,000 people. Who will rid us of this troublesome priest bus operator.
After 2200 the figures are 26 and 8.
After 2100 (bingo kicking-out time) 28 and 14.
The evening service halved in just 3.5 years.

Don't doubt the accuracy of your stats but what is the context? Have there been any cuts to subsidies by local authorities in that time? Are you doubting that evening services are unsustainable? Have other operators cut evening services?
 

Baxenden Bank

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Don't doubt the accuracy of your stats but what is the context? Have there been any cuts to subsidies by local authorities in that time? Are you doubting that evening services are unsustainable? Have other operators cut evening services?
I merely report the facts. :lol:
According to the latest bus use statistics (2017/18); passenger journeys overall have stabilised, concessionary journeys have stabilised, net support for bus services has more than doubled (from a pitiful amount to a slightly less pitiful amount - £22K to a whopping £55k). Overall concessionary travel expenditure by Stoke TCA continues to decline with the average per journey wobbling around but on a downward trajectory: £1.00 / £0.95 / £0.79 / £0.93 / £0.91 over the past five years.

Whether evening services were financially sustainable, when there was a decent level of service is a moot point.

Now I suspect the tipping point has been reached where they are wholly unattractive to anyone but the truly desperate. Why would anyone want to wait up to an hour for a bus after they have finished work or visited the hospital (in the evening or on Sunday). Especially if a connection into another hourly service has to be made and then the bus only goes part way home and they have to walk the remainder of the way?

All I hear in the pub is grumbles from people about how they can't use the bus anymore, even to get home from the city centre. Some will take taxis, some will get picked up by a partner, some go home really early ie 1830! and others will stay at home. Looking at the court reports, many people simply drink-drive (although they perhaps wouldn't be catching the bus anyway). Personally, my days of train trips are over because we have a minimal evening train service (Crewe to Derby) and there are so few buses from the station it is quicker to get from London to Stoke than it is from Stoke to Blythe Bridge (150 miles and 7 miles)!

I don't have any detailed financial or ridership information and I doubt Mr Eggleton is going to give me any! The services I used to use were reasonably well used, certainly up to mid-evening (say 2130), with passengers numbers in double figures. It depends on how First account for the revenue from multi-journey tickets. In the days of old, often the driver would simply not put anything into the ticket machine so, according the hard statistics, hardly anyone was on the bus. Similarly buying a cash single from any point on the old circuitous Newcastle - Meir - Hanley route would often result in a ticket bearing the boarding stage of Newcastle and an alighting stage of Hanley. Again the hard statistics would reveal no passengers travelling from Stoke to Meir, so why provide that service when a shorter one appears to cater for the apparent demand. Now of course the scanning of tickets/QR codes is much more comprehensive but that will only record current passengers, not potential passengers who wish to travel but cannot.

As for other operators, providing an evening service o_O.
Taxico have 25% of their fleet on the road in the evening until after midnight (one bus out of four).
Scraggs last bus terminates at 1700.
Going My Way (or not actually, as it happens) AKA Stantons: all in bed by tea-time.
D & G have a single bus out after 2100 on the 14W (I think that is where the £55k gets spent). Most D & G buses are youngsters and have to be in bed before 2000.
 

Robertj21a

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I merely report the facts. :lol:
According to the latest bus use statistics (2017/18); passenger journeys overall have stabilised, concessionary journeys have stabilised, net support for bus services has more than doubled (from a pitiful amount to a slightly less pitiful amount - £22K to a whopping £55k). Overall concessionary travel expenditure by Stoke TCA continues to decline with the average per journey wobbling around but on a downward trajectory: £1.00 / £0.95 / £0.79 / £0.93 / £0.91 over the past five years.

Whether evening services were financially sustainable, when there was a decent level of service is a moot point.

Now I suspect the tipping point has been reached where they are wholly unattractive to anyone but the truly desperate. Why would anyone want to wait up to an hour for a bus after they have finished work or visited the hospital (in the evening or on Sunday). Especially if a connection into another hourly service has to be made and then the bus only goes part way home and they have to walk the remainder of the way?

All I hear in the pub is grumbles from people about how they can't use the bus anymore, even to get home from the city centre. Some will take taxis, some will get picked up by a partner, some go home really early ie 1830! and others will stay at home. Looking at the court reports, many people simply drink-drive (although they perhaps wouldn't be catching the bus anyway). Personally, my days of train trips are over because we have a minimal evening train service (Crewe to Derby) and there are so few buses from the station it is quicker to get from London to Stoke than it is from Stoke to Blythe Bridge (150 miles and 7 miles)!

I don't have any detailed financial or ridership information and I doubt Mr Eggleton is going to give me any! The services I used to use were reasonably well used, certainly up to mid-evening (say 2130), with passengers numbers in double figures. It depends on how First account for the revenue from multi-journey tickets. In the days of old, often the driver would simply not put anything into the ticket machine so, according the hard statistics, hardly anyone was on the bus. Similarly buying a cash single from any point on the old circuitous Newcastle - Meir - Hanley route would often result in a ticket bearing the boarding stage of Newcastle and an alighting stage of Hanley. Again the hard statistics would reveal no passengers travelling from Stoke to Meir, so why provide that service when a shorter one appears to cater for the apparent demand. Now of course the scanning of tickets/QR codes is much more comprehensive but that will only record current passengers, not potential passengers who wish to travel but cannot.

As for other operators, providing an evening service o_O.
Taxico have 25% of their fleet on the road in the evening until after midnight (one bus out of four).
Scraggs last bus terminates at 1700.
Going My Way (or not actually, as it happens) AKA Stantons: all in bed by tea-time.
D & G have a single bus out after 2100 on the 14W (I think that is where the £55k gets spent). Most D & G buses are youngsters and have to be in bed before 2000.

I think First has recognised that the Potteries is difficult bus territory *nowadays*. If any evidence was needed it is evident that not even small local independants are willing to run routes any longer (most such operators have vanished over the years anyway).
First Potteries built up a (deservedly) poor reputation over many years and the travelling public haven't forgotten. It's clear that there are insufficient passengers to run most evening routes profitably so First are simply in a downward spiral.
Of course, if the public lobbied the council it should, in theory, ensure that satisfactory services exist.......
 

Martin2012

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On Sundays there was an hourly service until 2230 ex Hanley to Crewe / 2234 ex Crewe to Hanley until 19/4/15.
On weekdays there was a 2330 ex Crewe until 8/1/17. Ex Hanley there was a 2330 until 19/4/15.

Thanks ever so much for this interesting information. I remember the weekday 2330 ex Crewe getting cut in January 2017 but didn't know those other changes occurred in April 2015.

Out of interest were those reductions in April 2015 a commercial decision by First Potteries or the result of council funding cuts?
 

Thin man

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D&G have now also registered a sunday and bank holiday 11/11b. To partly compensate for firsts sunday cutbacks on bentilee.
 

Baxenden Bank

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D&G have now also registered a sunday and bank holiday 11/11b. To partly compensate for firsts sunday cutbacks on bentilee.
This must be a last minute decision. It did not show on the stokebus.info site as of last Tuesday (21st) when the forthcoming timetables appeared.

The fact that Bentilee is now served by just six buses per hour on a weekday is astonishing (plus some odds and ends on the 26/80).

The last bus to Bentilee will be at 2110. Plenty of buses going private to depot up Dividy Road though. Why bother providing a service to the public, even when you could do it at next to zero marginal cost.

They just sit there waiting for a huge public sector bung to save them from their operational incompetence. The local council election leaflet from the Conservatives promised to bring bus times and fares under council control. Let's wait and see whether she delivers on her promise!
 

daodao

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This must be a last minute decision. It did not show on the stokebus.info site as of last Tuesday (21st) when the forthcoming timetables appeared.

The fact that Bentilee is now served by just six buses per hour on a weekday is astonishing (plus some odds and ends on the 26/80).

The last bus to Bentilee will be at 2110. Plenty of buses going private to depot up Dividy Road though. Why bother providing a service to the public, even when you could do it at next to zero marginal cost.

They just sit there waiting for a huge public sector bung to save them from their operational incompetence. The local council election leaflet from the Conservatives promised to bring bus times and fares under council control. Let's wait and see whether she delivers on her promise!

Many councils (including Stoke) now provide little or no subsidy for bus services, and what little subsidy is given, is focussed on weekday buses between 0800-1800. For now, Greater Manchester still subsidises some evening routes, but most are at best hourly, particularly after 2000. I do expect them eventually to go the way of evening buses in Stoke.
 
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