Cross-haulage of empty intermodal flat wagons

Oxfordblues · 4 Apr 2019

Today's 4B92 06:47 Southampton Western Docks - Masborough FD conveyed just one container and was otherwise a complete train of empty flats. Heading in the opposite direction I often see intermodals destined Southampton including rakes of empties. There seems to be a lot of wasteful cross-haulage of empties.

When I worked at BRBHQ's Central Wagon Authority in the late-1970s our remit was to maximise wagon utilisation, optimise fleet productivity and avoid wasteful cross-haulage of empties.

I understand the limitations of detaching intermediate empty wagons before departure, requiring a pilot loco and shunting staff to achieve this. But if they are at the rear of the train uncoupling should be straightforward.

And I know that some contracts require a certain number of "platforms" to be made available each day for potential loading even if not all are required on the day. For this reason trains are kept in complete rakes in the knowledge that some wagons might run empty in both directions.

But as a retired wagon distributor it grieves me to witness such waste. I wonder if any readers have thoughts or explanations on this.

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4F89 · 4 Apr 2019

Waste.... on the railway??? Don't believe it.

Class 170101 · 4 Apr 2019

Probably needed as brake force just to move the one container you describe. Therefore balancing flats needed to move the other way. The same is happening with some Felixstowe traffic. Probably due to Brexit goods leaving the Far East stopped leaving around a month ago and this is the result - empty trains.

ChiefPlanner · 4 Apr 2019

Used to have to send , maybe 20 empty FLV's to Coatbridge from Felixstowe as a special ....but then the return loaded trains were worth a lot of money. The control staff obviously judged the bigger picture - as they ought to have.....

higthomas · 5 Apr 2019

Also they presumably want to ensure they always have enough wagons in the right locations, and the easiest way to do that is just let each rake always be of the correct length.

RLBH · 5 Apr 2019

I should think there's also a distinct possibility that Operator X has lots of loads out, but few loads inwards, whilst Operator Y has losts of loads in, but few loads out, leading to a trainload of loads in each direction and a trainload of empties in each direction.

With a single operator I should think that would be avoided as far as possible. For that matter, the competing private operators will avoid it where they can, too, but short-term variations in demand might make it unavoidable for them sometimes.

hwl · 5 Apr 2019

There is a lot of seasonality and variability too.
Semi-Fixed rake make sense - the often isn't much space to store spare wagon at certain locations now.
As an example Whiskey export are very variable with a huge increase for Christmas drinking /gifts season hence up until 6 weeks before Christmas it is busy then goes quiet. The reverse flows don't have the same seasonality /variability.

Suraggu · 5 Apr 2019

Perhaps it's a contract train, whereby the train runs whether it's loaded or empty and the FOC still gets paid?

It's not a waste hauling 'fresh air' at all. If product is waiting at the other end how else are you going to move it? Resources are not infinite.

LAX54 · 5 Apr 2019

Surely it must be quicker (WTT wise) to keep the trains fixed formation ? the time it would take to knock out 10 or so wagons could well eat into the departure time, some turn round times are very tight at the Ports, then of course there is storage, and as others have said, take out a few vehicles, only to find at the other end you need to add some, with everything then getting out of kilter !

furnessvale · 5 Apr 2019

Suraggu said:
Perhaps it's a contract train, whereby the train runs whether it's loaded or empty and the FOC still gets paid?

It's not a waste hauling 'fresh air' at all. If product is waiting at the other end how else are you going to move it? Resources are not infinite.

Indeed. The majority of freight trains run empty in one direction, oil, aggregates, cement etc.

Container trains are different in that most are loaded in both directions. Even if the containers themselves are sometimes empty, they still represent a payload to the FOC in that they are being repositioned for the shipping company.

route:oxford · 5 Apr 2019

Aren't the containers themselves leased by the day and suitable for multiple purposes?

So after, arriving at Southampton from China, say a trip to Grangemouth on the train, it's off to Aberdeen on a Lorry before heading empty to Speyside, Lorry to Grangemouth, train to Liverpool then off to the USA.

randyrippley · 5 Apr 2019

Oxfordblues said:
Today's 4B92 06:47 Southampton Western Docks - Masborough FD conveyed just one container and was otherwise a complete train of empty flats. Heading in the opposite direction I often see intermodals destined Southampton including rakes of empties. There seems to be a lot of wasteful cross-haulage of empties.

When I worked at BRBHQ's Central Wagon Authority in the late-1970s our remit was to maximise wagon utilisation, optimise fleet productivity and avoid wasteful cross-haulage of empties.

I understand the limitations of detaching intermediate empty wagons before departure, requiring a pilot loco and shunting staff to achieve this. But if they are at the rear of the train uncoupling should be straightforward.

And I know that some contracts require a certain number of "platforms" to be made available each day for potential loading even if not all are required on the day. For this reason trains are kept in complete rakes in the knowledge that some wagons might run empty in both directions.

But as a retired wagon distributor it grieves me to witness such waste. I wonder if any readers have thoughts or explanations on this.

blame the lack of freight due to reduced imports during the Brexit impasse

furnessvale · 5 Apr 2019

randyrippley said:
blame the lack of freight due to reduced imports during the Brexit impasse

That is the second time this has been mentioned. I presume you have access to the trade figures to prove this?

Shunter_69 · 5 Apr 2019

I wondered if it was related to earlier stock piling ahead of Brexit or something like that as the ones on the Great Eastern Main line have had noticeably fewer containers in the last month or so, with several running virtually empty.

As someone else said though, it could just be a seasonal thing.

randyrippley · 5 Apr 2019

furnessvale said:
That is the second time this has been mentioned. I presume you have access to the trade figures to prove this?

no, but I have off-the-record comments from business partners to that effect.......trade figures won't be visible for at least six months anyway.
Overseas purchases are being delayed until the level of import duty is resolved: if you don't know what your input costs are, how can you trade profitably? My main knowledge is of the computer and chemical industries, both heavily reliant on imports but the same problem applies universally

Suraggu · 6 Apr 2019

It's a lull in traffic, this regularly happens.
FL have regularly cancelled a pair of trains once or twice a week due to lack of traffic (non contract trains) and one contributing factor of this is ships being late to Dock at the ports.

The UK continues to trade normally as nothing has changed in regards to this Brexit malarkly.

306024 · 6 Apr 2019

Shunter_69 said:
I wondered if it was related to earlier stock piling ahead of Brexit or something like that as the ones on the Great Eastern Main line have had noticeably fewer containers in the last month or so, with several running virtually empty.

As someone else said though, it could just be a seasonal thing.

There have been issues with new computer software at Felixstowe that has impacted loading and unloading the ships.

Fawkes Cat · 6 Apr 2019

Suraggu said:
The UK continues to trade normally as nothing has changed in regards to this Brexit malarkly

This should probably face a challenge made earlier in this thread to another assertion:

furnessvale said:
. I presume you have access to the trade figures to prove this?

furnessvale · 6 Apr 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
This should probably face a challenge made earlier in this thread to another assertion:

I am quite happy to discuss the reasons for imbalanced loading (see my post #10), but whoever introduced Brexit has a duty to prove it, or this simply becomes another derailed thread. Light loads, or even completely empty trains, are nothing new and certainly occurred long before the referendum.

GB · 6 Apr 2019

randyrippley said:
blame the lack of freight due to reduced imports during the Brexit impasse

Nothing to do with Brexit. The train concerned I believe is a new DBC flow and new flows usually takes time stabilize...we are also just now coming out of the usual effects of Chinese new year where traditionally there are a lot less containers being shipped.

Timrud · 6 Apr 2019

Surely imports would be up pre-brexit, as all the scare stories say prices will rocket and boarders would be harder to get through?

Suraggu · 6 Apr 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
This should probably face a challenge made earlier in this thread to another assertion:

We have not left anything, so no trading relationship has changed. If anything Intermodal services have increased in 2019.

Class 170101 · 6 Apr 2019

306024 said:
There have been issues with new computer software at Felixstowe that has impacted loading and unloading the ships.

I have heard this as well - been ongoing for sometime I believe now

hwl · 6 Apr 2019

randyrippley said:
no, but I have off-the-record comments from business partners to that effect.......trade figures won't be visible for at least six months anyway.
Overseas purchases are being delayed until the level of import duty is resolved: if you don't know what your input costs are, how can you trade profitably? My main knowledge is of the computer and chemical industries, both heavily reliant on imports but the same problem applies universally

Based on talking to a small number of specialist manufacturers (made to customer spec and medium - long lead times): Agree on the overseas purchase being delayed for more discretionary purchases till it is clear what duties will be paid and being held up for customs clearance till thing have settled down (e.g. to Australia saw the first noticable drop and recently Netherlands/Germany)

Fawkes Cat · 6 Apr 2019

Suraggu said:
We have not left anything, so no trading relationship has changed. If anything Intermodal services have increased in 2019.

This appears to be confusing the concepts of what has happened with why something has happened (or as the case may be, has not happened).

edwin_m · 6 Apr 2019

Suraggu said:
We have not left anything, so no trading relationship has changed. If anything Intermodal services have increased in 2019.

However one deadline was extended at a few days notice and we have another deadline in less than a week. Anyone dispatching goods to the UK today by sea from the Far East will have no idea what customs and duties will be levied when they get here, and anyone dispatching goods due to arrive soon after March 29th would have been in a similar situation. While I have no inside information it's reasonable to expect that some people in that position would hold back until the situation became clear.

Timpg · 7 Apr 2019

The most recent factor affecting the amount of traffic loaded to trains at Felixstowe, was due to the week of very high winds at the port. The port had shut operation for probably over 50% of the week. Meaning inbound trains to the port were either stripped and not reloaded, or sent back to the depot it came from, with the load still loaded which was due to be tipped at the port. It takes time to rebound from situations like that, other than the wind, in my opinion intermodal at Felixstowe has been doing pretty well.

Cross-haulage of empty intermodal flat wagons

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