What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?

AY1975 · 29 Mar 2019

Ticket barriers may be the right choice in some circumstances (for example on the London Underground and suburban rail networks in London, and maybe in other major cities), but they are not necessarily the most effective weapon against fare dodging in all cases. On the LU and much of the London suburban network, they work well because most stations (in fact nearly all LU stations) are gated.

But where they are deployed at major stations in areas where most smaller stations do not have them, they only protect the minimum fare to and from the station where they are installed. They ensure that you have A ticket valid for A journey to or from that station, but not necessarily for the journey that you are actually making.

In many cases the installation of barriers seems to have led to a reduced effort by conductors to carry out regular ticket checks, although this may not be the only reason for them making less of an effort than they did in BR days or in the early days of privatisation. We have to ask ourselves, particularly in the case of long-distance services, what have the train operators achieved by going from "open" stations (i.e. without barriers) with a proper regime of regular on-train ticket checks to barriered stations with only very sporadic or non-existent on-train checks?

RailUK Forums

GrimShady · 29 Mar 2019

FelixtheCat said:
Because they weren't as busy....

I've been in exactly in the situation described when barriers were open and people were just allowed through. It is bad crowd control not barriers.

Never actually or you don't remember seeing it?
How many additional passengers pass through in 2019 than in 2005?
Barriers are not more time consuming than going through a human line or any other ticket checking alternative.

Absolutely sod all to do with ticket barriers.

Again, absolutely sod all to do with ticket barriers.

Another explanation could be that these issues only commence when loads of passengers start flooding through?

Your use of purely anecdotal evidence is insufficient. There are other perfectly reasonable explanations or intervening variables (significant increase in passenger numbers, for example) that could explain your observations. Yet, you choose to go for ticket barriers. That is a flawed conclusion.

Never actually is the case. I remember almost to the day how things changed due to the barriers coming into operation.

It has everything to do with the barriers. The very fact we need to buy tickets to get through them is down to the barriers. Of course most of these issue present themselves when it's busy otherwise there's no one around to use them.

The evidence I used is very relevant giving I and my other fellow passengers are the ones that have to use the barriers. Barriers/ticket checkers are the sole reason for swelling crowds unable to disperse quickly. Compare the flow from a busy York train disembarking passengers Vs a busy E&G service. Totally different experience due to lack of restricting barriers.

Esker-pades · 29 Mar 2019

GrimShady said:
Never actually is the case. I remember almost to the day how things changed due to the barriers coming into operation.

It has everything to do with the barriers. The very fact we need to buy tickets to get through them is down to the barriers. Of course most of these issue present themselves when it's busy otherwise there's no one around to use them.

So, what? We shouldn't have to buy tickets?

GrimShady said:
The evidence I used is very relevant giving I and my other fellow passengers are the ones that have to use the barriers. Barriers/ticket checkers are the sole reason for swelling crowds unable to disperse quickly. Compare the flow from a busy York train disembarking passengers Vs a busy E&G service. Totally different experience due to lack of restricting barriers.

My emphasis.

I am a "fellow passenger". And, I refer you again to the various examples I have given to swelling crowds when barriers have been open or non-existent.

Whilst I don't mind having reasonable discussion, when there is an inability to accept that other factors may be influencing the increase in getting through ticket lines such as the significant increase in the number of passengers, then I won't keep going. I cite phrases such as "sole reason" for this.

GrimShady · 29 Mar 2019

FelixtheCat said:
So, what? We shouldn't have to buy tickets?

My emphasis.

I am a "fellow passenger". And, I refer you again to the various examples I have given to swelling crowds when barriers have been open or non-existent.

Whilst I don't mind having reasonable discussion, when there is an inability to accept that other factors may be influencing the increase in getting through ticket lines such as the significant increase in the number of passengers, then I won't keep going. I cite phrases such as "sole reason" for this.

Felix as I've said before I always buy my tickets. I no longer have the option of purchasing on the train thanks to barriers. I now use a smart card to get round the ridiculous TVM que/issues.

I'm perfectly willing to accept there are other contributing factors, however IMO they are just that.... contributing. So are you also saying the barriers are a poor design due to lack of foresight with regard to increasing patronage? If that's the case then they should never have been installed in the locations mentioned due to the lack of space.

Esker-pades · 29 Mar 2019

GrimShady said:
Felix as I've said before I always buy my tickets. I no longer have the option of purchasing on the train thanks to barriers. I now use a smart card to get round the ridiculous TVM que/issues.

I realise you do, but a lot of people simply don't. Lack of barriers encourage the chancers.

GrimShady said:
I'm perfectly willing to accept there are other contributing factors, however IMO they are just that.... contributing.

Fair enough. I was confused by phrases such as "sole reason".

GrimShady said:
So are you also saying the barriers are a poor design due to lack of foresight with regard to increasing patronage? If that's the case then they should never have been installed in the locations mentioned due to the lack of space.

I'm not. I'm saying that barriers aren't the big problem in this. The examples that you have cited (Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley) have ample space to put barriers*.

*With the obvious exception of a few platforms at Waverley like 2, 8, 9 and 19.

Barrier lines are put in where there is space; they aren't just plonked down. My local station is one example where barriers can never be installed because of a lack of space.

mmh · 29 Mar 2019

The examples that you have cited (Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley) have ample space to put barriers*.

*With the obvious exception of a few platforms at Waverley like 2, 8, 9 and 19.

Barrier lines are put in where there is space; they aren't just plonked down. My local station is one example where barriers can never be installed because of a lack of space.

Heh, "Waverley has ample space apart from where it doesn't."

It's not true that barriers aren't just plonked down, there are countless examples of exactly that, particularly in London and the South East.

jtuk · 29 Mar 2019

Whoever mentioned the foreign system of no barriers anywhere and large enough fines to persuade people to buy tickets had it right, it's just stupid unnecessary expense to try to paper over other failings in the system

thenorthern · 29 Mar 2019

GodAtum said:
I find it strange people would fare evade on long distance services. Do you really think you are going to get away with it on a 3+ hour journey!!

Yes in simple terms, the amount of times I have been from Stoke-on-Trent to London Euston and not seen a ticket collector which bear in mind at one point there was no ticket barriers at Stoke-on-Trent and only random revenue blocks at London Euston.

infobleep · 29 Mar 2019

I've had it at Reading and Guildford before where they have checked your ticket as you leave the train and then you have to go through the barrier. So you get a double check so to speak.

Oddly though I've never seen a check on platform 5 at Guildford and there are stations south of Guildford that have no barriers.

So why do a ticket check block on platform 1 and 2 but not platform 5?

sheff1 · 30 Mar 2019

FelixtheCat said:
Barrier lines are put in where there is space; they aren't just plonked down.

You believe there is ample space at Lincoln ? Shrewsbury ? Grantham (now removed) ? Durham (up side - also now removed) ?

At all those places I have witnessed unnecessary congestion caused solely by the introduction of barriers in a confined space. I have no doubt others will have witnessed similar elsewhere.

Kite159 · 30 Mar 2019

infobleep said:
I've had it at Reading and Guildford before where they have checked your ticket as you leave the train and then you have to go through the barrier. So you get a double check so to speak.

Oddly though I've never seen a check on platform 5 at Guildford and there are stations south of Guildford that have no barriers.

So why do a ticket check block on platform 1 and 2 but not platform 5?

Could be that the guards on the services from the London Road direction are non commercial whereas the guards from the Haslemere direction are commercial?

TurbostarFan · 31 Mar 2019

Kite159 said:
Could be that the guards on the services from the London Road direction are non commercial whereas the guards from the Haslemere direction are commercial?

Why not check your ticket whilst the train is moving?

jon0844 · 31 Mar 2019

AY1975 said:
Ticket barriers may be the right choice in some circumstances (for example on the London Underground and suburban rail networks in London, and maybe in other major cities), but they are not necessarily the most effective weapon against fare dodging in all cases. On the LU and much of the London suburban network, they work well because most stations (in fact nearly all LU stations) are gated.

Increasingly I'd say they aren't working well because people brazenly double up knowing full well that they aren't going to be stopped.

It's like jumping red lights. Over time people see others doing it and getting away with it, so after getting angry people just think to copy and not be the 'mug' that complies with the law. Hence so many people who just seek to pay when challenged, which for TfL must be lower than on the railway given how few inspectors there are.

Ticket Man · 31 Mar 2019

I worked in revenue protection for nearly a decade and barriers were a mixed bag for me.

Con's - they are not smart enough to catch the serial fare dodgers who know the system. In reality, these people are small in number and overall present little revenue risk (<1% i would say) in the grand scheme of things.
Pro's - they stop the chancers. The line I started on 10 years ago, i'd estimate that nearly 10% of passengers did not hold a ticket before boarding the train back then. They would all pay up when asked to, but 9 times out of 10, the guard would be so busy selling tickets that they would get through 3 or 4 coaches by the time they arrived at the destination and so the majority went unchallenged. Barriers put an end to all that and (not adjusted for inflation) if i didn't sell 2K a shift at the gate line back in 2008, I wasn't paying attention.

Coming up to modern day standards (its been a few years since I was ticket checking), I use HS1 to get into work and my ticket is checked on gate line departure, 1/2 the time on the train and again on arrival gate line also. There's very little room to avoid paying the fare but I guess that is because the ticket values are so high that it pays to catch everyone. Go to somewhere like the west mids where the average fare is so low, it doesn't add up to chase all those £2.50 locals with such tenacity.

atraindriver · 31 Mar 2019

jon0844 · 31 Mar 2019

The Eastern Europeans claiming to not speak English are currently a problem in the UK again. They're Romanian and BTP are actively trying to seek them out, but I suspect they'll have a difficult job given police numbers and the sheer number of trains running.

infobleep · 31 Mar 2019

Kite159 said:
Could be that the guards on the services from the London Road direction are non commercial whereas the guards from the Haslemere direction are commercial?

I hadn't thought of that. They were also checking the tickets of those entering the services too.

greaterwest · 31 Mar 2019

infobleep said:
I hadn't thought of that. They were also checking the tickets of those entering the services too.

They'll be checking the interchange passengers too then, just like they do at Woking on platform 3 where they check passengers boarding/leaving the bay stoppers.

Swanny200 · 31 Mar 2019

Tyne and Wear Metro have a problem at the moment where their Revenue guys are powerless, they sit at barriers talking to each other and on many occasion have asked someone if they have a ticket and when told No, watch said person jump over the barrier or just walk through, there is simply nothing that they can do.

infobleep · 31 Mar 2019

greaterwest said:
They'll be checking the interchange passengers too then, just like they do at Woking on platform 3 where they check passengers boarding/leaving the bay stoppers.

Why don't they check interchange passengers on platform 5. Great Western Railway and trains from Ascot also run through Guildford

Come to think of it, I've never seen a ticket block on platform 5 at Woking when the evening stoppers arrive there. Two of them terminate too.

al78 · 1 Apr 2019

atraindriver said:
The system of no barriers and large fines only works when it is policed constantly and heavily, meaning that fraudulent travellers will (not may) be caught...

It also requires the guard to have the ability to extract the fine from the non payer if they are caught AND refuse to pay, possibly in an aggressive manner. Perhaps employ guards who have excellent hand-to-hand combat skills and can give the nastier ones a good beating if they try an intimidating threatening manner.

greaterwest · 1 Apr 2019

infobleep said:
Why don't they check interchange passengers on platform 5. Great Western Railway and trains from Ascot also run through Guildford

Come to think of it, I've never seen a ticket block on platform 5 at Woking when the evening stoppers arrive there. Two of them terminate too.

That's because very few people get off those two terminating arrivals.

As for the evening Guildford service at 1816, it wouldn't be feasible to block platform 5 entirely at that time of day at Woking.

infobleep · 1 Apr 2019

greaterwest said:
That's because very few people get off those two terminating arrivals.

As for the evening Guildford service at 1816, it wouldn't be feasible to block platform 5 entirely at that time of day at Woking.

I have noticed the ticket block at Guilford does only seem to cover platforms 1 and 2 so the 8:04 arrival from Waterloo, via Cobham, which goes on to form the 8:22 won't get a revenue block. At least that's my experience. It may not actually be the.case.

tsr · 1 Apr 2019

al78 said:
It also requires the guard to have the ability to extract the fine from the non payer if they are caught AND refuse to pay, possibly in an aggressive manner. Perhaps employ guards who have excellent hand-to-hand combat skills and can give the nastier ones a good beating if they try an intimidating threatening manner.

Unfortunately the martial arts modules (the "Splattered Pages") were removed from the Rule Book a few years ago.

stut · 1 Apr 2019

jon0844 said:
The Eastern Europeans claiming to not speak English are currently a problem in the UK again. They're Romanian and BTP are actively trying to seek them out, but I suspect they'll have a difficult job given police numbers and the sheer number of trains running.

Heh, it was ever thus. Being fluent in a foreign language can get you out of all sorts of situations. I've certainly used it to my (and friends') advantage in the past.

(Note to the permanently outraged: not to skip fares. I don't do that.)

cholsey-choose · 2 Apr 2019

AY1975 said:
But where they are deployed at major stations in areas where most smaller stations do not have them, they only protect the minimum fare to and from the station where they are installed. They ensure that you have A ticket valid for A journey to or from that station, but not necessarily for the journey that you are actually making.

This is true but the RPIs are aware of it. On a local service from Cholsey, you'll get a far more sympathetic hearing if you say you are going to Reading without a ticket, versus going to Tilehurst (no barriers) without a ticket.

RLBH · 8 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
While England didn't tend to be like that, Scottish stations (in particular Inverness) used to have people queueing single file waiting for the train to open and one person check tickets - it was very civilised compared with the small version of the Euston scrum the barriers cause.

Inverness is still weird like that, with a nice polite single-file queue all the way across the concourse waiting for the gates to be unlocked. I've never seen anything like it elsewhere.

A lot of the difficulty on longer-distance services caused by gates at terminal stations would be eased by not treating the departure platform like a state secret. Yes, there are occasional last-minute changes, but surely they're fairly unusual once the train has actually shown up?

Bletchleyite · 8 Apr 2019

RLBH said:
A lot of the difficulty on longer-distance services caused by gates at terminal stations would be eased by not treating the departure platform like a state secret. Yes, there are occasional last-minute changes, but surely they're fairly unusual once the train has actually shown up?

Certainly Euston's platforming is very consistent (to the point that LM used to have a printed poster with it on which was displayed in the Tube station, and commuters tend to go to platforms almost without looking at the board, particularly where they were ones accessible by a side entrance, though I think this is now closed?). This wasn't the case prior to the VHF timetable - I guess with the high frequencies it'd fall to bits if it was done at random as it was before.

Timmyd · 8 Apr 2019

Something I don’t understand is installing gates and then leaving an open access to the station for disabled use. Both West Norwood and Gipsy Hill have been gated by Southern - and are manned much of the time - but both have level access gates always left open on the London-bound platforms. Suffice to say few of the passengers using them seem disabled, and a large number seem to have no need to touch in either....

cholsey-choose · 8 Apr 2019

Timmyd said:
Something I don’t understand is installing gates and then leaving an open access to the station for disabled use. Both West Norwood and Gipsy Hill have been gated by Southern - and are manned much of the time - but both have level access gates always left open on the London-bound platforms. Suffice to say few of the passengers using them seem disabled, and a large number seem to have no need to touch in either....

Maybe I'm being too cynical, but in the long-run this will allow the train companies to collect a lot of evidence of intent to evade.

What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member