Train felt like it was derailing

silverfoxcc · 5 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
There's been quite a lurch coming off the E&G at Greenhill Upper for as long as I can remember, the diverging speed is 70 which is quite high.

I've had a really bad lurch over the junction in 170396, so it's nothing new.

Besides the driver will feel anything first and I'm sure if they felt it was unsafe they wouldn't hesitate to put the brake in.

I am not a driver but putting on the brakes when you feel the lurch is like the QM2 hitting reverse thrust to avoid a collision. surely both are ineffective at close quarters

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LeeLivery · 5 Apr 2019

The Earlswood-Salfords area on the fasts has scared me more than once. At one point I was travelling daily that way so you got used to the jolts on the Brighton Main Line. However, one day it jolted quite harsher than normal. You could tell a few people, including myself, were unnerved by it. I'm sure I heard a few swears.

hexagon789 · 5 Apr 2019

silverfoxcc said:
I am not a driver but putting on the brakes when you feel the lurch is like the QM2 hitting reverse thrust to avoid a collision. surely both are ineffective at close quarters

I meant if they driver feels it's dangerous they would put in the emergency brake, not merely shave off some speed to take the junction at a lower speed.

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

philthetube · 5 Apr 2019

silverfoxcc said:
I am not a driver but putting on the brakes when you feel the lurch is like the QM2 hitting reverse thrust to avoid a collision. surely both are ineffective at close quarters

However it allows it to be reported before any other trains pass.

If I felt track was that bad I would remain stationary until I knew others were aware.

ComUtoR · 5 Apr 2019

silverfoxcc said:
I am not a driver but putting on the brakes when you feel the lurch is like the QM2 hitting reverse thrust to avoid a collision. surely both are ineffective at close quarters

If you were in a car, about to hit another vehicle, do you just smash into it at full speed or do you hit the brakes and try to mitigate as much as possible.

Wilts Wanderer · 5 Apr 2019

Regarding Pacers hunting at speed - it’s a characteristic of a long-wheelbase two-axle vehicle due for tyre-turning. The cone-angle of the wheel profile has a tendency to flatten over time, which makes the wheel-rail contact patch unstable particularly when ‘excited’ by poor geometry, cant-surplus curvature (I.e. slow speed on highly super elevated track) or other causes.

That being said, in 2006 when First took over from Wessex Trains, there was a period of several months when the newly-relocated St Philips Marsh 143 fleet became very prone to severe hunting at pretty much any speed over 50mph. I had several exceptionally alarming runs through Sapperton Tunnel - on the worst instance the ‘ride’ was throwing bags out of the overhead racks and led to the conductor apologising over the PA. It later turned out that SPM were using the incorrect wheel profile when tyre-turning Pacers and changing to the correct profile cured the problem overnight.

Crawley Ben · 5 Apr 2019

LeeLivery said:
The Earlswood-Salfords area on the fasts has scared me more than once. At one point I was travelling daily that way so you got used to the jolts on the Brighton Main Line. However, one day it jolted quite harsher than normal. You could tell a few people, including myself, were unnerved by it. I'm sure I heard a few swears.

I've noticed that too in that same area you've mentioned when I've travelled to London from Crawley, always seems to happen for some reason or other.

Cheers

Ben

Cowley · 5 Apr 2019

Tio Terry said:
Back in BR days I was once travelling at night from York to Kings Cross in the restaurant car of an HST.We stopped at Peterborough and, after departing, I think the driver thought he was on the up fast because when we reached the river bridge we very suddenly lurched left, right, left as we passed through the points to join the up fast. Everything on the table hit the floor, there was a massive cry from the kitchen and a cook had a big gash in his arm, walking back down the train to find the Guard or Conductor people were picking up cases that had fallen, replacing what had been on tables but had reached the floor. When I found the Conductor I told him I was an Engineer and that I was concerned that the track could have been damaged by what was clearly excessive speed and asked that he get the driver to stop at an appropriate signal and report the incident to the signaller so that an examination could take place, this duly happened. Upon reaching Kings Cross there was a reception party waiting to talk with the driver!

A very interesting post. This and the one about Grayrigg from Irish_Rail really make you think.

F Great Eastern · 5 Apr 2019

I was once on a Turbostar that there was a couple of fairly large bangs on the journey coming into a station at night and we were stopped for about 10 minutes in silence and announcement was made that the train had to be checked before continuing. For the rest of the journey, the train had the feeling of going downhill and like the carriage was not riding level between the front and the back.

Only other time I have been worried about any train was a Renatus 321 that had an extremely rough ride to the point where there were frequent violent shakes to the left and the right and the odd one with a direction and up and down that sent many things and bags flying throughout the journey and loud banging from underneath the carriage when it did it, I was honestly worried we would derail, since I've had many rough rides over the years, but that was to a whole new level.

185 · 6 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The concern isn't really, I reckon, people pulling it for borderline-genuine reasons. Someone activated it in the bog of the 2304 Euston-Northampton last night for no apparent reason, causing a few minutes' delay. It's pretty obvious in 350s that it isn't the flush.

I think most gentlemen who use the small bog standing up nearly end up leaning on the call for aid button. Just been put in such a silly place. Same as the 185s, only the button is dead centre on those, and literally gets pushed on almost every journey.

LowLevel · 6 Apr 2019

Cowley said:
A very interesting post. This and the one about Grayrigg from Irish_Rail really make you think.

Without deviating on to discussions about pass coms they illustrate my original point really well. Despite assumptions to the contrary there may not be awareness. That and people are often blind to things they don't understand or don't want to acknowledge as a problem.

The two incidents on the Midland Mainline in recent history with the 222s (a door open in traffic for a significant period of time and a unit running with an axle disintegrating beneath it) show that with or without warnings of problems from computer systems you need to act on what your senses tell you at times.

I've been involved in several incidents on trains and for the most part the passengers just ignored what was quite blatantly something very wrong.

I recently had an incident that required the train to be stopped immediately and not a single one of the 60 odd passengers did anything but sit or stand there and I had to fight my way through them to apply the emergency brake.

hexagon789 · 6 Apr 2019

ComUtoR said:
If you were in a car, about to hit another vehicle, do you just smash into it at full speed or do you hit the brakes and try to mitigate as much Definitely slow down as much as possible.

route:oxford said:
In 1996, a sub-prime parent sitting opposite me was allowing her three year old to dance on the table of a 158. I warned her as we approached Greenhill that the train was about to lurch violently and she should get her daughter off the table.

Some things never change with time. Mind you I've never seen that sort of behaviour - dancing on tables from children or adults.

route:oxford said:
The mother wasn't impressed and told me to "get to Falkirk" or similar and I had no right to tell her what to do.

Less than a minute later the train lurched violently and the wee one went clattering off the table and knocked herself out cold.

Ambulance attended at Larbert. Gave a witness statement to BTP, not sure what the outcome

The thanks you get for trying to be helpful! :rolleyes:

bramling · 6 Apr 2019

Cowley said:
A very interesting post. This and the one about Grayrigg from Irish_Rail really make you think.

It’s worth remembering that the Potters Bar derailment was preceded by a report of rough ride a day or so previously in more or less the exact location of the subsequent derailment, which was messed up in that the wrong section was checked due to some confusion surrounding the report originating from an off-duty member of staff on a down service but being passed to the signal box via station staff at Finsbury Park which led to an up service being suspected, despite the reporting number of a down service having been correctly given.

The report doesn’t really go into too much detail as it wasn’t possible to conclude one way or other whether this report was related, in the end it was suggested that it possibly wasn’t - but nonetheless quite a coincidence.

I tend to agree that at the end of the day we have to err on the side of safety.

LOL The Irony · 6 Apr 2019

Cowley said:
A very interesting post. This and the one about Grayrigg from Irish_Rail really make you think.

I must agree although whether anything could've been done in those 3 hours is debatable.

tsr · 6 Apr 2019

Crawley Ben said:
I've noticed that too in that same area you've mentioned when I've travelled to London from Crawley, always seems to happen for some reason or other.

If you mean the points on the Up Slow Line near the south end of Salfords station, used for Salfords Aggregates yard, they have been reported quite a few times, and so far as I'm aware, this has always been passed on to permanent way staff accordingly. It's interesting it has got mentioned on here, as it is certainly also one of the worst bits of track I've come across. Every time it's been reported (that I can recall), the p-way and signalling teams have insisted until they're blue in the face that it's all within tolerances and there's work planned to improve it anyway, and to be fair it has been gradually made a bit better over the last few months, but it's still often capable of generating a fairly uncomfortable ride.

I don't believe any of the test trains have reported anything and it's been a little while since any of the drivers have complained either, but there are enough people fed up with it that any major reoccurrence will probably be noted rather quickly.

LOL The Irony said:
I must agree although whether anything could've been done in those 3 hours is debatable.

At the very least trains would probably have been run at a much slower speed until someone could examine it. This may not have prevented some sort of derailment, though, and it's quite hard to say if the defect would have been found and spotted, as the outcome of an engineer's inspection can have very different results to the report from the passengers/crew of a train.

silverfoxcc · 7 Apr 2019

ComUtoR said:
If you were in a car, about to hit another vehicle, do you just smash into it at full speed or do you hit the brakes and try to mitigate as much as possible.

Not trolling or urine extracting, at what speed would a driver be concerned and how quickly would and emergency application take effect?

(to give you a hint a car travelling at 40mph will,according to the highway code which used a 1959 model stop in 80ft. moderns ones a lot less than that.) I doubt if any passenger train, and with the possible exception of a Tram, would pull up in just over a carriage length or even reduce speed enough before even the last carriage of a 4 car unit has passed the problem. We are told that trains do not stop on a sixpence, so what would be a reasonable stopping distance under extreme emergency conditions? Serious question

ComUtoR · 7 Apr 2019

silverfoxcc said:
Not trolling or urine extracting, at what speed would a driver be concerned and how quickly would and emergency application take effect

Rough rides happen at different speeds. I know of one on our patch that is pretty severe and the linespeed is 70mph Between 50 and 70 you can feel it jolt. Below 50 and its just a minor bump.

I know of one that is quite severe at 45mph (linespeed 45mph). You rarely take the junction at 45mph so only tend to feel a jolt on a rare occasion but its well known. At that junction there was a derailment.

I even know a location where there is a severe bump at around 1mph and is only felt from the front cab

For a technical about stopping distances someone else can provide the answer. However, it is not about bringing the unit to a stand. It is mitigation and possible prevention. If you were going to derail (for whatever reason) If your overall speed is reduced then you are mitigating the outcome. Just as in a car, the increased speed will contribute to the outcome.

Not forgetting this is also about prevention of something happening. In the derailment outlined in the RED video (sorry I don't have a link) the unit went over a track defect and a 'rough ride' was felt. It went unreported. The following unit derailed. Part of stopping immediately and reporting it is to act as a form of prevention. Every delay in reporting contributes to an increase in risk.

I see the validity in your point about it being too late but it is just as nonsensical to do nothing.

Jim Jehosofat · 7 Apr 2019

Any one remember this one at Liverpool Street.......https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/derailment-at-liverpool-street-station-london

Ambient Sheep · 7 Apr 2019

There used to be a particularly vicious one between Roydon and Broxbourne on the Up WAML about seven or eight years ago. Even though the train was going in a straight line and not, as far as I know, near any points (this wasn't close to the Hertford East junction), the jolt was considerable.

It had just about got to downright frightening levels when there was some weekend engineering work and lo! it went away.

NoOnesFool · 7 Apr 2019

londonmidland said:
Until quite recently, travelling on an EMT HST anywhere south of Bedford at 100mph+ used to be particularly rough. It seems to be quite a bit better these days, but can still be rough in places.

EMT HSTs are a rough ride full stop. Especially between Leicester - Market Haborough.

big all · 8 Apr 2019

Dr_Paul said:
Years back I was on an evening suburban service from Victoria in a 4-SUB, not stopping at Battersea Park, and it took the curve after the bridge over the Waterloo lines at an astonishing speed. I thought that we'd be off the track, as did the bloke sitting opposite me; we were very worried. I was rather glad when I alighted at Clapham Junction.

you must have had a rough un the average a sub would go round there would be perhaps 55 mph or as the speedo would say "nought" assuming slow lines
from memory it was 45after the 15/20 out off vic 40 at longedge fast lines but slow was fine as no points just curves

QueensCurve · 8 Apr 2019

Journeyman said:
I don't know quite why the Mark 3s are considered to be like travelling on magic carpets - I've had quite a few trips where the things lurch and bounce all over the place.

Mk3 had a reputation for smooth running. In recent years many have had their dampers replace with a different make to the original. This has resulted in a lively (really quite nauseating) ride.

sarahj · 8 Apr 2019

The problem for the driver is what seems to be a slight jolt, by the time it snakes through a few coaches can cause a big jolt. Once on the Lewes - Seaford line a jolt sent me in the back to the floor. I reported it to the driver who had not noticed much, we then reported it to Network rail. It was dark, so hard to pinpoint, but a day later in the light you could see where it was. It was fixed the next day. Some faults keep being fixed and then fail again. Coming out of Southampton towards Fareham there was a jolt at Bittern Station. I always used to wait until we had passed it before I did a ticket check. If we fell over it used to be said that we should have known the line, esp at junctions. On the Lewes - Seaford line you hold on most at the bridge over the river. https://goo.gl/maps/QivrPUyERWN2 The line from Keymer down to Lewes is known for its jolts as rabbits keep digging under the line.

duffield · 8 Apr 2019

QueensCurve said:
Mk3 had a reputation for smooth running. In recent years many have had their dampers replace with a different make to the original. This has resulted in a lively (really quite nauseating) ride.

It's really quite variable, I had what seemed like a super smooth ride all the way on the 11:45 HST service from Nottingham to St. Pancras on Friday (middle of front coach). Guess I must have had original dampers?

Ken H · 8 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
I created a thread on this at the time but basically an underframe door was swinging open and scraping the edge of the platform.

This sort of stuff is important.

Link is to the Rail Inspectorate report into a derailment of a Class 52 loco at West Ealing due to an unsecured battery inspection cover which hit lineside signalling equipment, causing points to move under the train.
This is an excerpt, but best to follow the link and read the whole report.

It left Paddington I I minutes late at 17.29 and, at some point after leaving the terminal, an insecurely fastened battery box door on the near side of the locomotive fell open. After fouling a number of lineside structures, the door dropped into such a position that it struck the operating rods of the facing points leading from the Down Main line to the Down Relief line at Longlield Avenue Junction, which is situated between Ealing Broadway and West Ealing Stations. The effect was to open the points underneath the locomotive, causing the train, which was travelling at approximately 70 milelh, to become completely derailed. It came to rest within 210 yards with the locomotive on its right side with the first coach still coupled to it, derailed all wheels, but upright. The next 5 coaches were zigzagged across all 4 lines and severely damaged. The rear 5 coaches were also derailed but remained upright and sustained only minor damage.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Ealing1973.pdf

al78 · 8 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
Some things never change with time. Mind you I've never seen that sort of behaviour - dancing on tables from children or adults.

The thanks you get for trying to be helpful!

If people are too thick to differentiate between well-meaning advice and an order, then they can take the harder option of learning through experience. Unfortunately if they are of the never-my-fault types, they will end up engaging in the same behaviour over and over again and then wonder why they keep getting the same sub-optimal result :rolleyes:

.

LowLevel · 8 Apr 2019

duffield said:
It's really quite variable, I had what seemed like a super smooth ride all the way on the 11:45 HST service from Nottingham to St. Pancras on Friday (middle of front coach). Guess I must have had original dampers?

The middle is smoother than over the bogies and the front of the train is smoother than the rear, basically!

They've had some work done to them of late too - they've been getting to be really bad.

Clansman · 9 Apr 2019

Mathieu said:
Last week I was on the 09:39 Glasgow Queen St. to Aberdeen HST service. Going along the E&G at what felt like full line speed the train started to slow to take the left towards Stirling, as we traversed the points the train jerked to the right and then to the left followed by one more to the right whilst being thrown upwards slightly. In this moment I was convinced that we were coming off the tracks, both bottles on the table went flying off it.

I was wondering if anyone has had any similar experiences where they felt like they were going to come off the tracks?

Glasgow to Aberdeen is possibly the worst route in the UK for these sort of kicks whilst travelling. If you thought Greenhill was bad, the worst is at some level crossing north of Arbroath (can't mind the name), and the area around Carmont is just as disgracful. Something really needs to be done about the track quality - staff have been arguing it for years. The HSTs and their dodgy suspensions don't help matters unfortunatley and only make the kicks worse.

RichSwitch · 9 Apr 2019

One place I always find bad is where the SouthWestern mainline diverges at Worting Junction (northbound, 2543b on Traksy), just before Basingstoke. Taken at full pelt this gives a real left-right kick. Whether the slight downhill adds to this kick I’m not sure.
Some SouthWestern drivers, I’ve noticed, take this slower than others. Some seem unconcerned. I’ve not traveled on a Voyager over the same section so can’t comment on whether it’s the same.
Just as an aside, I have complained in the past to LNER about the rough riding on HST sets. On one occasion the last first class coach was bouncing like a 4 year old on a bouncy castle. Several other passengers were commenting on this to the on-board catering crew. On another occasion, set at the rear of the last first class coach on the right, I was forced to moved seat. Every time a train passed on the up, it sent the tea cup flying. I think that issue was down to the side panelling on the train.

hexagon789 · 9 Apr 2019

Ken H said:
This sort of stuff is important.

Link is to the Rail Inspectorate report into a derailment of a Class 52 loco at West Ealing due to an unsecured battery inspection cover which hit lineside signalling equipment, causing points to move under the train.
This is an excerpt, but best to follow the link and read the whole report.

Indeed, I had the West Ealing incident in mind, still in told the guard, what more can I do if they aren't bothered?

al78 said:
If people are too thick to differentiate between well-meaning advice and an order, then they can take the harder option of learning through experience. Unfortunately if they are of the never-my-fault types, they will end up engaging in the same behaviour over and over again and then wonder why they keep getting the same sub-optimal result .

Oh very true, but you'd think at least some of them would eventually realise, no?

Clansman said:
Glasgow to Aberdeen is possibly the worst route in the UK for these sort of kicks whilst travelling. If you thought Greenhill was bad, the worst is at some level crossing north of Arbroath (can't mind the name), and the area around Carmont is just as disgracful. Something really needs to be done about the track quality - staff have been arguing it for years. The HSTs and their dodgy suspensions don't help matters unfortunatley and only make the kicks worse.

Perhaps they need another round of trying out different bogie dampeners?

Train felt like it was derailing

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