Merseyrail overcharging Aintree racegoers?

Bletchleyite · 8 Apr 2019

Starmill said:
If there is such a critical mass of people attending the Aintree dates that use Merseyrail to do so, and this is sufficient that Merseyrail are called upon to effectively re-write their timetable for a few days to achieve it, then having people queuing for tickets seems ludicrous anyway. If the claims being made are true, then the obvious solution for convenience is to add £5.30 to the price of all Aintree tickets and for Merseyrail to accept race tickets in their trains all day.

Surely Merseyrail would be happy with this because it cuts down on cost and queuing. Of course it might negatively impact sales of race tickets a tiny amount for those who are insistant on using a car, but it would boost their green credentials. Some residual passengers using the bus might be disadvantaged slightly if an agreement cannot be made for race tickets to include bus travel on routes to Aintree.

What would be good, and is how the Germans would do it, would be that an event ticket (and in Germany this is a wide range of events - often even gigs and theatre tickets) would include unlimited travel on the entire local transport network on the day of the event. This is done by a levy on tickets, similar to a tourist tax. You then simply travel with your event ticket and show it if inspected.

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clagmonster · 8 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
What would be good, and is how the Germans would do it, would be that an event ticket (and in Germany this is a wide range of events - often even gigs and theatre tickets) would include unlimited travel on the entire local transport network on the day of the event. This is done by a levy on tickets, similar to a tourist tax. You then simply travel with your event ticket and show it if inspected.

Brighton & Hove Albion do a similar scheme, whereby all match tickets have a voucher which is valid on all trains and buses in the area around the ground. Aintree racecourse could have an inclusive Saveaway. Probably make it all zones.

If the extra fiver on the race ticket is unacceptable, they could always give a supplementary option of buying Merseyrail tickets with the race tickets and encourage those travelling by train from further afield to book through to Aintree for very little, if anything, more than the ticket to Liverpool.

infobleep · 8 Apr 2019

Starmill said:
If there is such a critical mass of people attending the Aintree dates that use Merseyrail to do so, and this is sufficient that Merseyrail are called upon to effectively re-write their timetable for a few days to achieve it, then having people queuing for tickets seems ludicrous anyway. If the claims being made are true, then the obvious solution for convenience is to add £5.30 to the price of all Aintree tickets and for Merseyrail to accept race tickets in their trains all day.

Surely Merseyrail would be happy with this because it cuts down on cost and queuing. Of course it might negatively impact sales of race tickets a tiny amount for those who are insistant on using a car, but it would boost their green credentials. Some residual passengers using the bus might be disadvantaged slightly if an agreement cannot be made for race tickets to include bus travel on routes to Aintree.

What a good idea.

Bletchleyite · 8 Apr 2019

clagmonster said:
If the extra fiver on the race ticket is unacceptable, they could always give a supplementary option of buying Merseyrail tickets with the race tickets

An excellent idea completely avoiding the whole issue.

The best thing would be to sell Merseytravel Saveaways, though the stupid Walrus thing complicates that.

and encourage those travelling by train from further afield to book through to Aintree for very little, if anything, more than the ticket to Liverpool.

As a through ticket it is £0.00 extra on long distance Any Permitted walk-ups (stations a fair way up the Northern Line just take fares from Liverpool Lime St), though Advances will cost a bit more and there's no LNR Only through ticket. However I'd imagine the majority will be travelling up Friday and staying two nights in Liverpool itself, so this isn't really applicable.

JBuchananGB · 8 Apr 2019

There were plenty of punters staying in Southport, for which the special event rover ticket would have been most suitable. No idea whether it was being offered for sale at Southport.

mmh · 8 Apr 2019

Starmill said:
I find it very telling that some people genuinely think that speedier payments with cash than with card are a good justification for an underhanded price increase. I wonder how much public support there really would be for that idea?

I propose that all fuel filling stations in the country should round the bill up to the nearest £5 for the sake of payment convenience after you've dispensed fuel. How would you feel about that? Indeed, the what might the tabloids have to say about that?

It's difficult to think of a worse counter example to use than filling stations, where the customer generally rounds the amount they put in themselves to a round number.

robbeech · 8 Apr 2019

An option when buying tickets would surely solve more issues.

Ticket for the event is £x. When you buy it you can add on transport tickets for use on Merseyrail for an extra £y. They send you a custom ticket and you show it on the train / at stations. No queues to purchase, fast moving queues as people glance at the tickets which will all be the same.

To save faff you pay £x + £y
IF you have a ticket from further afield that’s valid or are a season ticket holder you just pay the £x
If you Don’t want to buy until the day you just pay the £x and you could be notified that there may be long queues to buy tickets.
£y in this instance could be whatever price they wanted it to be.

Class83 · 8 Apr 2019

There were 3 fares which would cover travel between Central/Moorfields and Aintree; an Anytime Day Return and £4.05, after 0930 Thursday and Friday and all day Saturday a 1 zone Day Saver at £4 and the 'Races Ticket' which was apparently a Northern Lines Daysaver (possibly with no peak restriction) at £5.

I can understand the appeal to Merseyrail in terms of simplicity of retail and they do run extra trains, most racegoers probably didn't care about the extra pound given the cost of venue admission, drinks and betting. But, the fairly simple rule when you walk into a ticket office at station X and ask for a return to station Y is that they sell you the cheapest ticket valid at the times you wish to travel. They didn't do this which seems legally dubious to me, what other events will 'special' prices be applied to, The Open, if there is a big event such as the Giants, or something at the Pierhead? If there is to be such a stipulation surely it should be written into franchises with a maximum number of days/year, difference from normal ticket price (perhaps rounding up to nearest £5 is reasonable).

Also given that the 'races ticket' is now coded into the fares system is it bookable on other days for use on the Northern Line were the return or Daysaver might be more or has it been deleted?

HotelNovember · 8 Apr 2019

Class83 said:
But, the fairly simple rule when you walk into a ticket office at station X and ask for a return to station Y is that they sell you the cheapest ticket valid at the times you wish to travel. They didn't do this which seems legally dubious to me, what other events will 'special' prices be applied to.

Booking offices did do this, if you read back up the thread.

Booking offices sold normal, single, return, day tickets.

The Event ticket was a queue-busting, pre-printed ticket, sold by Revenue Protection staff only.

Starmill · 8 Apr 2019

mmh said:
It's difficult to think of a worse counter example to use than filling stations, where the customer generally rounds the amount they put in themselves to a round number.

On the contrary, lots of people accidentally go to £10.02. In such cases I assume they would be happy to pay £15, as that's allegedly quicker?

MikeWh · 8 Apr 2019

mmh said:
It's difficult to think of a worse counter example to use than filling stations, where the customer generally rounds the amount they put in themselves to a round number.

Starmill said:
On the contrary, lots of people accidentally go to £10.02. In such cases I assume they would be happy to pay £15, as that's allegedly quicker?

And others fill by litres because that's what triggers nectar points. Others wait until the auto stop clicks and leave it at that.

mmh · 9 Apr 2019

MikeWh said:
And others fill by litres because that's what triggers nectar points. Others wait until the auto stop clicks and leave it at that.

Complete nonsense. People do not look at the volume, they look at the price. People filling to the brim are very rare, and these days if you're not aiming for a price it's because you've pre-paid and the pump does it for you.

Nobody, err, average, thinks "I need 15 litres."

MikeWh · 9 Apr 2019

mmh said:
Complete nonsense. People do not look at the volume, they look at the price. People filling to the brim are very rare, and these days if you're not aiming for a price it's because you've pre-paid and the pump does it for you.

Nobody, err, average, thinks "I need 15 litres."

So I'm a nobody, eh?

I'll agree I don't think "I need 15 litres". But I know how much fuel my tank will take and will round it to the nearest litre. This maximises both nectar points and the often supplied Xp off per litre coupons.

Anyone hiring a car or van will be instructed to "fill her up" before returning the vehicle to the hire centre. It's actually amazing how often I hear the pump overflow switch abort filling while I'm filling my car. I think filling to the brim is more common than you believe.

lyndhurst25 · 9 Apr 2019

RPIs acting no better than ticket touts in my opinion. I'm sure that Merseyrail would complain if some enterprising individual decided to do the race-going public a service by buying a pile of £4.05 returns to Aintree and standing outside Liverpool Central selling them on to racegoers at £5 "for their convenience".

Fawkes Cat · 9 Apr 2019

I think that by the letter of the rules, there's no problem with this ticket: as I understand it, it is a £5 peak day ranger for the Northern Line, and I can't think of any other ticket which will allow that degree of travel all day for that price. Since it was the only ticket available at the points where it was sold[1], then it is presumably the case that customers chose to get that ticket with the flexibility to go where and when they wanted on the Northern Line rather than joining the regular ticket queue where they could have bought an ordinary return to Aintree. So customers were offered the best ticket for their needs.

Except, on a non-logic-chopping basis, it still seems a bit off to have charged more than the straight town - Aintree return. As a lot of people have said, no one going to Aintree at the weekend was going for a train ride - they were going for a day at the races and a night in the boozer.

But on balance, everyone local seems to be in line with Merseyrail on this one[2]: the legal coverage for selling the ticket is adequate (not good, but adequate) and the speed advantage of selling a ticket at a round price overrides the disadvantages of it not being the cheapest possible ticket.

[1] In practice, I don't think there will have been many sales at Aintree, so the location of the ticket office there compared to the queue is irrelevant: surely almost everyone will have returned from Aintree in the same way that they arrived, so evening passengers will already have had their ticket.
[2] yesterday (the Monday after the Grand National) I had a good look through the Liverpool Echo website: I couldn't find any mention of train tickets to Aintree at all, and given that the Echo has no problem with grumbling about Merseyrail, that strikes me as pretty conclusive.

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

MikeWh said:
Anyone hiring a car or van will be instructed to "fill her up" before returning the vehicle to the hire centre. It's actually amazing how often I hear the pump overflow switch abort filling while I'm filling my car. I think filling to the brim is more common than you believe.

I normally just fill up completely, I can't see much of a reason not to do so as it reduces the number of times I have to fill up. OK, the weight of the extra fuel might *slightly* increase consumption but it'll be imperceptible.

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
I think that by the letter of the rules, there's no problem with this ticket: as I understand it, it is a £5 peak day ranger for the Northern Line, and I can't think of any other ticket which will allow that degree of travel all day for that price. Since it was the only ticket available at the points where it was sold[1], then it is presumably the case that customers chose to get that ticket with the flexibility to go where and when they wanted on the Northern Line rather than joining the regular ticket queue where they could have bought an ordinary return to Aintree. So customers were offered the best ticket for their needs.

I very, very much doubt that, particularly given that it only had value as that ticket for those arriving before 0930 on Friday, which will have been a tiny proportion of them.

An Anytime Day Return to Old Roan is less than £5, for those arguing that that was the best ticket, as is a one area Saveaway at £4.10. (The regular £4 one zone Day Saver is only good as far as Aintree - must admit I don't understand why that's one *zone* and the low price Saveaway is one *area*[1]).

Mind you a lot of people do buy the "tourist tax" ticket just because it's easier. I went to Barcelona recently with friends, and I reckoned the 10-trip ticket would work out way cheaper for what we were going to do than the 48 hour tourist ticket, and I wasn't even near wrong (I paid less than a third of what they did, if I recall) - but they just went "it'll be easier" and were not unhappy with their rather pricey purchase.

[1] For those not familiar with the Merseytravel zonal system, which has been around in its current form since the 1970s, it has large zones which are called "Areas", which cover one of the main axes into Liverpool with one covering the main city area which includes Aintree and Old Roan, and within it smaller ones called "Zones" which relate to very local travel. It's not purely concentric unlike London. It's probably as close to a German or Swiss style system as you will find in the UK.

richw · 9 Apr 2019

MikeWh said:
So I'm a nobody, eh?

I'll agree I don't think "I need 15 litres". But I know how much fuel my tank will take and will round it to the nearest litre. This maximises both nectar points and the often supplied Xp off per litre coupons.

Anyone hiring a car or van will be instructed to "fill her up" before returning the vehicle to the hire centre. It's actually amazing how often I hear the pump overflow switch abort filling while I'm filling my car. I think filling to the brim is more common than you believe.

I either fill to the brim, or in weeks near the month end when I’m on a budget, I work out what mileage I’m doing that week, on the knowledge my car does between 55-60mpg, and fill accordingly. If I know I’m doing 300 miles I’ll put in 6 gallons (approx 27 litres), although I’d round to 30 litres to have spare for a short unplanned journey to the shops or similar

Fawkes Cat · 9 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I very, very much doubt that, particularly given that it only had value as that ticket for those arriving before 0930 on Friday, which will have been a tiny proportion of them.

An Anytime Day Return to Old Roan is less than £5, for those arguing that that was the best ticket, as is a one area Saveaway at £4.10. (The regular £4 one zone Day Saver is only good as far as Aintree - must admit I don't understand why that's one *zone* and the low price Saveaway is one *area*[1]).

I accept that my argument is dubious. But I think it's enough to get the TOC out of formal sanctions for not offering the best value ticket. The dubious argument goes
- customers were able to choose to buy an 'ordinary' ticket from town to Aintree (at a cost of less than £5)
- but they didn't choose to do that. By queuing up at the booth marked 'Aintree Tickets' they chose the alternative of a ticket that would take them anywhere, any time on the Northern Line
- so the customers must have wanted the flexibility to pop out of the racecourse to go to Kirkby, Hunt's Cross, Ormskirk or Southport
- the fact that in the event the customers chose not to use that flexibility is not Merseyrail's fault. They received the best ticket for their needs as Merseyrail understood it at the point of sale.

In reality, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone will make the above argument. But that's because realistically no one is going to complain about the £5 ticket. Yes, it's on the borderline of the rules (many here say it's outside the border: as above I argue it's just inside the border). But given a huge influx of customers who need to be processed quickly, simplicity is everything. In this case, simplicity means a small surcharge (95p over the anytime Liverpool Central - Aintree return of £4.05 (Merseyrail having abandoned off-peak tickets some years ago - which is a whole separate thread)) on the one hand and the extreme ease of processing (you stand in front of the ticket vendor; you give them a five pound note; they give you a ticket; you move on; job done) on the other. Practically speaking, the benefits for everyone outweigh the drawbacks of the higher fare.

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
In reality, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone will make the above argument. But that's because realistically no one is going to complain about the £5 ticket. Yes, it's on the borderline of the rules (many here say it's outside the border: as above I argue it's just inside the border)

Yes, I argue it's outside. If the sign had said something like "Special Northern Line day tickets including Aintree and Old Roan £5" then it would certainly have been within, though the £4.10 Area C Saveaway would have precisely that validity for 90p less after 0930 on the Friday (before which there would have been hardly any passengers to the races, and the special desk may not even have been there as there would have been no need for it). Though of course the Saveaway requires those stupid Walrus cards.

But given a huge influx of customers who need to be processed quickly, simplicity is everything. In this case, simplicity means a small surcharge (95p over the anytime Liverpool Central - Aintree return of £4.05 (Merseyrail having abandoned off-peak tickets some years ago - which is a whole separate thread)) on the one hand and the extreme ease of processing (you stand in front of the ticket vendor; you give them a five pound note; they give you a ticket; you move on; job done) on the other. Practically speaking, the benefits for everyone outweigh the drawbacks of the higher fare.

Point of order - it's £4.00, the one zone day ticket is valid to Aintree. £4.05 is indeed an awkward amount, but a large bucket of £1 coins would have resolved the issue of giving change.

Clip · 9 Apr 2019

lyndhurst25 said:
RPIs acting no better than ticket touts in my opinion. I'm sure that Merseyrail would complain if some enterprising individual decided to do the race-going public a service by buying a pile of £4.05 returns to Aintree and standing outside Liverpool Central selling them on to racegoers at £5 "for their convenience".

Apart from that RPIs have the power to sell tickets and the enterprising individual does not so its really not a good comparison

WelshBluebird · 9 Apr 2019

I am amazed that we have a thread detailing how a ToC was systematically over charging passengers and people are actually defending it!

Fawkes Cat · 9 Apr 2019

WelshBluebird said:
I am amazed that we have a thread detailing how a ToC was systematically over charging passengers and people are actually defending it!

That would be because cost isn't the only issue: if it was we'd have closed all the railways and be going everywhere by driver only operated bus. IN this case, a practuical decision has been made which - as far as I can tell - means that everyone got to and from the racecourse safely and quickly and without complication or confusion over fares.

maniacmartin · 9 Apr 2019

I have to agree with Bletchleyite here. I think it would only be acceptable and within the rules if the sign was explicit that a different product to the usual day return was being sold, which made it sufficiently clear to passengers that they are paying a premium to get a ranger and to beat the queues.

Bantamzen · 9 Apr 2019

tiptoptaff said:
There's a lot of people getting very upset on behalf of people who weren't upset and don't really care

Is the correct answer....

Seriously though, when you have something like 75K people heading to a race meeting where millions of pounds is going to be put down on a bunch of horses most haven't even heard of, whilst punting pints of warm vastly over-priced booze down their gullets, being charged an extra quid for a event-specific train ticket really isn't going to get pulses racing for most punters. Of course if its really upset people who weren't even travelling to the event, they could always organise an information desk next year to tell people that instead of that five pound quick transaction, they could queue up for hours to save themselves a quid, and whatever they were going to punt on all the races they missed whilst doing so!

I just hope those complaining about the quid extra never have to try and book train tickets at short notice when their football team gets to a cup or playoff final!!

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

Bantamzen said:
I just hope those complaining about the quid extra never have to try and book train tickets at short notice when their football team gets to a cup or playoff final!!

This isn't a valid argument, because such tickets will not be priced in excess of the relevant Anytime or (Super) Off Peak walk-up. This case was different because a ticket was being sold at a higher price than several other tickets, all cheaper, which would have fulfilled the requirement.

Airlines[1] (and probably coach operators) do take the mick in this regard, but the railway generally does not.

[1] Genuine fares from Luton to Geneva a few years ago when I was booking for work for a run of consecutive Monday 0625 flights in January/February: £29, £29, £29, £29, £239, £29, £29.... Can you tell which one was the Monday of February half term, possibly the busiest day of the ski season?

joke2711 · 9 Apr 2019

Bantamzen said:
Is the correct answer....

Seriously though, when you have something like 75K people heading to a race meeting where millions of pounds is going to be put down on a bunch of horses most haven't even heard of, whilst punting pints of warm vastly over-priced booze down their gullets, being charged an extra quid for a event-specific train ticket really isn't going to get pulses racing for most punters. Of course if its really upset people who weren't even travelling to the event, they could always organise an information desk next year to tell people that instead of that five pound quick transaction, they could queue up for hours to save themselves a quid, and whatever they were going to punt on all the races they missed whilst doing so!

I just hope those complaining about the quid extra never have to try and book train tickets at short notice when their football team gets to a cup or playoff final!!

I am sure they won't mind but then you have the regular commuters who have to put up with service changes and additional changes of trains to accommodate this .. wouldn't it be nice if all those extra 95p were put towards subsidising there regular fare paying passengers?

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

joke2711 said:
I am sure they won't mind but then you have the regular commuters who have to put up with service changes and additional changes of trains to accommodate this .. wouldn't it be nice if all those extra 95p were put towards subsidising there regular fare paying passengers?

And a TOC who lopped the service at Aughton Park and Town Green in half (justified), but (not justified) considered it too much effort to put a full timetable of the changes on their website, such as, most importantly, the departure times of the trains from Liverpool which did call at those two stations. Because nobody ever uses a journey planner for direct journeys on a simple network like Merseyrail, they just learn the times from their stations, which just involves remembering 4 numbers between 0 and 59 (or just one number and adding 15/30/45 to it), and which 2 of the 4 you don't get on a Sunday or late evening.

I'll admit I do have a big downer on the present Merseyrail management's approach, which does to some extent influence my view. That said, there is one thing going for them - they are not Northern, and they were a lot more rubbish when they too were an Arriva TOC.

Bantamzen · 9 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
This isn't a valid argument, because such tickets will not be priced in excess of the relevant Anytime or (Super) Off Peak walk-up. This case was different because a ticket was being sold at a higher price than several other tickets, all cheaper, which would have fulfilled the requirement.

Airlines[1] (and probably coach operators) do take the mick in this regard, but the railway generally does not.

[1] Genuine fares from Luton to Geneva a few years ago when I was booking for work for a run of consecutive Monday 0625 flights in January/February: £29, £29, £29, £29, £239, £29, £29.... Can you tell which one was the Monday of February half term, possibly the busiest day of the ski season?

@Bletchleyite Having been to Wembley with my club 3 times this decade (not bad for a team about to drop to the fourth tier) all I can tell you is that price surges have caused no end of debate on concertation amongst fans!

joke2711 said:
I am sure they won't mind but then you have the regular commuters who have to put up with service changes and additional changes of trains to accommodate this .. wouldn't it be nice if all those extra 95p were put towards subsidising there regular fare paying passengers?

Do we know that all the extra revenue gained will not go towards subsidising Merseyside passengers, or in improvements for them away from the Grand National weekend?

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

Bantamzen said:
Do we know that all the extra revenue gained will not go towards subsidising Merseyside passengers, or in improvements for them away from the Grand National weekend?

It'll just go in the general pot, so it'll be a bit difficult to establish what it is or isn't spent on.

Merseyrail overcharging Aintree racegoers?

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