Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

nlogax · 9 Apr 2019

K.o.R said:
Aren't these trains meant to be modular designs? I can't see it being a huge job to put the shoegear (back) on the 350s, certainly less than the opposite (fitting a 444/450 with AC gear).

I think that specific point was already addressed a few weeks back; https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-350-3rd-rail-capability.180025/

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43096 · 9 Apr 2019

pompeyfan said:
Technically they could yes, but Siemens probably wouldn’t like it as the traction motors would be overworked. There has been cases of a unit hauling a dead unit but probably not advisable, especially on the gradients on the direct.

There'd be no auxiliary supply on the 350 either so it couldn’t be used for passengers. So a total non-starter.

pompeyfan · 9 Apr 2019

43096 said:
There'd be no auxiliary supply on the 350 either so it couldn’t be used for passengers. So a total non-starter.

Is there no bus between units through the Dellner?

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2019

pompeyfan said:
Is there no bus between units through the Dellner?

No autocoupler has a large enough electrical connection for a bus line, even only for train heating purposes.

In any case, as the /1s have shoegear, fitting it to /2s is unlikely to be difficult or expensive (other than due to standard "railway inflation").

pompeyfan · 9 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
No autocoupler has a large enough electrical connection for a bus line, even only for train heating purposes.

In any case, as the /1s have shoegear, fitting it to /2s is unlikely to be difficult or expensive (other than due to standard "railway inflation").

Ah right. Thanks for clarifying. There is an orange jumper socket at the front of the units though if I recall correctly? If they were to run as fixed sets could that work?

I completely agree however that it’s pie in the sky stuff, and if 350s were to be used on the PDL, then the most convenient way of doing to would be to add 3rd rail and fit them out in a comfortable 2+2 layout.

Had the 350/2s been available at the same time as the 442s, is the common feeling that FMTR would have preferred to stick with Desiros? Common sense would say so.

hwl · 9 Apr 2019

pompeyfan said:
Ah right. Thanks for clarifying. There is an orange jumper socket at the front of the units though if I recall correctly? If they were to run as fixed sets could that work?

No. the connection would need to support at least 3000A which is a very very chunk cable

None of the internal power cabling within any 4/5 car DC EMU power bus is built for that. (The 700 etc are build as seperate units to avoid some of these issues 2x4car or 2x6car).

Just have good look at all the cabling between the 350/450 cars

K.o.R · 9 Apr 2019

What about the 313s? Didn't they have a 750V bus added?

61653 HTAFC · 9 Apr 2019

K.o.R said:
What about the 313s? Didn't they have a 750V bus added?

I thought the Silverlink/LO ones did, in order to get the 508s to and from Willesden depot.

aleggatta · 9 Apr 2019

K.o.R said:
What about the 313s? Didn't they have a 750V bus added?

61653 HTAFC said:
I thought the Silverlink/LO ones did, in order to get the 508s to and from Willesden depot.

All 'original' 313s in use on GN don't have a 750v Bus line, so the 750v kit on each DMS will only take power from its local shoe gear. When transferred to SN a 750V bus was 'fitted' which I think ended up being some links fitted in the AC traction box on the PTS to create a DC bus line over the original feeder cables used when running on AC(Which were now redundant and all AC kit made obsolete). This also included the fitment of DC shore supply traction/auxiliary sockets, but none of this extends to the couplers or transfers between two separate multiple units. only the 'control' wiring is transferred over coupler electrical heads, which would have enabled a 'dead' unit to be dragged with full brake and traction control available from either open cab controlling whichever unit had traction power available.

K.o.R · 9 Apr 2019

Saw what I think was 442408 in Fratton earlier, and it looked like they've replaced the headlamp clusters. Or at least the bulb; the reds were very clear and bright.

lsdghasu · 9 Apr 2019

K.o.R said:
Saw what I think was 442408 in Fratton earlier, and it looked like they've replaced the headlamp clusters. Or at least the bulb; the reds were very clear and bright.

The 442s are being fitted with new LED headlights like on the 159s.

K.o.R · 9 Apr 2019

lsdghasu said:
The 442s are being fitted with new LED headlights like on the 159s.

That's good to hear. The old lamps are rubbish.

Wychwood93 · 9 Apr 2019

Mercifully we appear to be back on-thread! Quite where the drift to 350 units and the obvious ability they have to be closet 4TCs and coupled to 450/444 units came from is a mystery. From my viewpoint it will be good to have the 442s back - many, many miles under the belt with them - although not on the Direct from Pompey. I would like to be on the 1B94 1818 Poole to Waterloo on the 19th May, see what happens.

Matt Taylor · 10 Apr 2019

As mentioned earlier, 2408 and another unit are at Fratton this week and training is back on course.

Thumper1127 · 11 Apr 2019

Does anyone know how many of the eighteen units have been refurbished?

theironroad · 11 Apr 2019

Thumper1127 said:
Does anyone know how many of the eighteen units have been refurbished?

That's the million dollar question which no-one seem to have an answer to.

Crunch time will be 19/5 and the new timetable when some will be needed if the publicised timetable enhancements are to be implemented.

pigs bay · 15 Apr 2019

I have noticed on flickr that 2401 has been moved to what looks to be coupled to 2412, and on "wikipedia" it says that 2401,2405,2407,2412,2421,& 2424 are for spares. Please can anyone confirm this or is there still a glimmer of hope that they will all be back with SWR

pompeyfan · 16 Apr 2019

I believe there are still 6 parked up in Eastleigh Arriva TMD, next to where the 800s are being stored.

Goldfish62 · 16 Apr 2019

theironroad said:
That's the million dollar question which no-one seem to have an answer to.

Crunch time will be 19/5 and the new timetable when some will be needed if the publicised timetable enhancements are to be implemented.

Indeed. The Reading and Windsor lines alone appear to need an extra six units in the peaks.

I can see a lot of short formations come May.

doctorf5 · 16 Apr 2019

pompeyfan said:
I believe there are still 6 parked up in Eastleigh Arriva TMD, next to where the 800s are being stored.

Just the 2 at Eastleigh Depot (2405 & 2424). The other 4 are at Ely.

Using them as spares might have been helpful early on, but not so much now 2 years later with suppliers in place.

RichSwitch · 18 Apr 2019

Probably commercially confidential, but does anyone know the actual mean spend-per-coach of refurbishing the 444/450 and the actual mean spend-per-coach of refurbishing the 442? Obviously one would expect the 442 to be greater spend than the Desiro because of all the additional work required to bring them up to scratch.

I’m guessing someone somewhere uses some kind of value-for-money or return-on-investment metric. Does anyone know for sure how long SWR intend to use the 442 before replacing them? I suppose my thinking is: are they a permanent solution or are they a stop-gap measure? Apologies if these questions have been asked before.

swt_passenger · 18 Apr 2019

RichSwitch said:
Probably commercially confidential, but does anyone know the actual mean spend-per-coach of refurbishing the 444/450 and the actual mean spend-per-coach of refurbishing the 442? Obviously one would expect the 442 to be greater spend than the Desiro because of all the additional work required to bring them up to scratch.

I’m guessing someone somewhere uses some kind of value-for-money or return-on-investment metric. Does anyone know for sure how long SWR intend to use the 442 before replacing them? I suppose my thinking is: are they a permanent solution or are they a stop-gap measure? Apologies if these questions have been asked before.

I posted the Figure for the 442 project earlier as intended to be £45M, (£500K per vehicle), as reported in Railway Gazette. It includes the retraction as well, currently deferred.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-redeployment.127422/page-98#post-3843566

The Desiros account for another £50M, (£68K per vehicle).
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/south-western-announces-50m-train-refurbishment

Another £15M is being spent on the DMUs, based on SWR announcing the all-in cost as £110M

_toommm_ · 18 Apr 2019

swt_passenger said:
I posted the Figure for the 442 project earlier as intended to be £500k per vehicle, as reported in Railway Gazette. It includes the retraction as well, currently deferred.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-redeployment.127422/page-98#post-3843566

I’ll try and find the Desiro figure...

Per vehicle as in per coach, it per vehicle as in a full unit?

swt_passenger · 18 Apr 2019

_toommm_ said:
Per vehicle as in per coach, it per vehicle as in a full unit?

Vehicle = single carriage, as per normal railway usage of the word. Obviously an average, and because almost all of the 442 traction equipment is on the one centre vehicle, then work on that vehicle will be the vast majority of the cost per unit.

pompeyfan · 18 Apr 2019

AC traction is ongoing with the first 2 units that are being converted in Eastleigh as it stands, they’ve been in there 6 weeks so far.

BR67 · 18 Apr 2019

RichSwitch said:
Does anyone know for sure how long SWR intend to use the 442 before replacing them? I suppose my thinking is: are they a permanent solution or are they a stop-gap measure?

They are on lease for the full franchise term (see the Franchise Agreement, page 176).
https://assets.publishing.service.g...rn-railways-2017-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

doctorf5 · 21 Apr 2019

pompeyfan said:
AC traction is ongoing with the first 2 units that are being converted in Eastleigh as it stands, they’ve been in there 6 weeks so far.

When I went past a few weeks ago, the motor coach for 442402 was still outside at the back of the works, where it has been for months. I assume the rest of 442402 must still be at Bournemouth as only 442419 went back to Eastleigh in January (both units left Eastleigh without their motor coaches back in October).

Don Steedy · 21 Apr 2019

doctorf5 said:
Just the 2 at Eastleigh Depot (2405 & 2424). The other 4 are at Ely.

Using them as spares might have been helpful early on, but not so much now 2 years later with suppliers in place.

You’d be surprised at how many parts are still causing major headaches. All the convertors and invertors off the 6 would be very useful for starters until the new convertors & invertors start to get fitted. The 1980s electronics did not enjoy their time being stored in a field in Cambridgeshire, and some are proving very costly to repair with some major internal components having to be specially manufactured in order to do so!

VEP3417 · 23 Apr 2019

my friend sent me this the other day, in a siding near portsmouth is all he told me, looks quite smart in the new livery

lxfe_mxtterz · 23 Apr 2019

Good afternoon all.

I have found some very interesting images of the refurbished interior of one of the South Western Railway Class 442s on Facebook.

Full credits to Grant Stallard on Facebook who uploaded these pictures:

I have attached a few of the images below.

Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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