Railway porters

Andy873 · 10 Apr 2019

Hi, I was just wondering about railway porters, more specifically what they actually did job wise.

I'm confused (and that's not hard) about why BR would list 2 porters jobs to go (1964) when the station they worked at was only by this time working with freight and the occasional summer excursion passenger service.

Always thought they were there to help passengers, but most of the year there weren't any.

Also, how do you read this line of text?:

2 Porters / Signalmen

Am I being told 2 porters were doubling as Signalmen? or do you think it means 2 porters & 2 signalmen? or maybe the signalmen were doubling as porters? (but that would mean closing the signal box wouldn't it?).

Sorry lots of questions here, just like to here your views on this.

Thanks!
Andy.

RailUK Forums

Paul Kelly · 10 Apr 2019

Isn't a porter's job (as the name suggests) at its core simply to move things? So they would be equally (if not more) useful with freight than passengers, who tend to move themselves?!

Andy873 · 10 Apr 2019

Yes, that's a very good point - I also know there were 2 signal boxes here, so I'm guessing 2 porters / signalmen means

2 porters & 2 signalmen?

pdeaves · 10 Apr 2019

Andy873 said:
Am I being told 2 porters were doubling as Signalmen?

Depending on traffic levels, it is conceivable that, with little 'signalling' work to do the men may be available to fetch and carry at other times.

grid56126 · 10 Apr 2019

At Victoria in the 1990s, whilst not a "grade" that existed, numerous staff adopted it and made some extremely decent money from their enterprise. It was known locally as "fluffing". The proliferation of airport customers with a desire to have bags carried resulted in £5 notes being thrown round like confetti and they were the easy wins. Much bigger prizes were available for the staff who had the gift of the gab!

I am sure this is somewhat different to the official meaning of the role, whereby a porter at a wayside halt would probably have got a few coins from the lord or lady of the manor on a few rare occasions.

Andy873 · 10 Apr 2019

Thanks everyone, interesting.

I don't have any numbers regarding through freight traffic, and I don't see anyone listed as working in the goods shed - do you think the staff were doubling up here at the time? - maybe things had gone quiet over the last few years and that's why BR closed the line.

pdeaves · 10 Apr 2019

Andy873 said:
Thanks everyone, interesting.

I don't have any numbers regarding through freight traffic, and I don't see anyone listed as working in the goods shed - do you think the staff were doubling up here at the time? - maybe things had gone quiet over the last few years and that's why BR closed the line.

What station/depot/line are you specifically looking at?

Highlandspring · 10 Apr 2019

Porter/signalman was a specific grade for stations which did not justify both a seperate full time porter and signalman. The duties were rolled into one with the chap working the box when required at busy times and carrying out porter duties (which included overseeing parcels and freight traffic as well as sometimes booking office duties) the rest of the time.

PeterC · 10 Apr 2019

You must remember that in those days there was a lot of non passenger traffic going across the platforms. The bulk of newspaper distribution went by rail together with post as well as the railway's own parcel and lugguage in advance services.

Foxcote · 10 Apr 2019

The hybrid grade of Porter/Signalman was not unusual on lighter used branch lines. They were paid the ‘mean’ rate of pay (half of the Porter’s rate plus half of the Signalman’s rate)
Another hybrid grade that existed was Porter/Guard; in theory, any two grades could be combined to suit the local circumstances.

There were also Porters at Goods depots who loaded/unloaded/ goods from wagon load train services and loaded/unloaded railway road motor vehicles by using fixed deck or mobile cranes, chains, ropes, skids, conveyor systems etc. Country stations often had animal feed stores (a white concrete shed on stilts) Feed in bags was received in 20ton Vanfits from the likes of BOCM/Silcocks etc. These bags had to be unloaded into the feed store by hand and moved internally by sack truck. (Even unloading one van was very time consuming hard and
dirty work.) Then later, the bags were moved again when farmers came to collect, Many country stations had a flat bed 3 ton delivery motor, (which could be an old three wheel Scammell) collecting/delivering to over a 20 mile radius from the station.

Andy873 · 11 Apr 2019

Never realised about hybrid roles, I assumed people did specific roles, so when BR are saying
2 porters / signalmen they are probably meaning just 2 people in this case.

I assume pay grades were the same across the network, and I don't know what a ganger, porter and signalman made in 1964.

Just trying to work out the so called "cost savings" on wages from BR's point of view.

Foxcote · 11 Apr 2019

Hi andy873, In 1964 I was a Station Master/Goods Agent Grade 2. Having already worked at grade 4 and grade 3 stations. Supervisory Grades at that time were 4,(lowest) 3, 2, 1, Spl A, Spl B, then Management Grade. At my station I had two different hybrid grades. National rates of pay and conditions were the same throughout BR, but there may have been a London allowance.

As an example, the station signal box was required to be open daily from circa 0500 to 2359
A total of 19 hours. Two signalmen were employed working 8 hours each, early and late.
This left a gap of 3 hours in the middle of the day, during which the Porter/Sigs split up the hours between themselves. We had two resident relief Signalman who covered a small number of boxes. There were no signalling vacancies.

Sorry I can’t help with rates of pay as it’s 55 years ago. I think my basic pay at grade 2 was about £800 per year. The only one I recall clearly was my first job at grade 4, a basic pay of £620 per year, with a station house available at a yearly rent of 15% of basic pay, (£93) which included both general rates and water rates.

Andy873 · 13 Apr 2019

@Foxcote Sorry for the late reply and thanks for the information, it's very interesting and thank you for passing on some personal details of what your were paid.

It all comes down to a report from a BR meeting with the NUR, staff etc stating they were closing a line (now freight), and it lists as follows as staff savings:

Daisyfield 1 Sub Ganger
Gt.Hwd 1 Ganger 1 Sub Ganger 3 Lengthsmen.
Gt.Hwd Operating Staff 2 Porter / Signalman
Padiham 1 Ganger 1 Sub Ganger
Rose Grove 3 Lengthsmen

Total staff savings ??????

So a total of 13 staff were affected by this closure - I presume some might have been reallocated elsewhere, but this was 1964 a time of mass closures and maybe alternative positions were few and far between?

30907 · 13 Apr 2019

I presume the porters were on the goods side and that passenger rated traffic was no longer handled on the Loop. I suspect neither part of the work was onerous by 1964!
The box may even have been switched out for long periods but I don't know.

RT4038 · 13 Apr 2019

Andy873 said:
@Foxcote Sorry for the late reply and thanks for the information, it's very interesting and thank you for passing on some personal details of what your were paid.

It all comes down to a report from a BR meeting with the NUR, staff etc stating they were closing a line (now freight), and it lists as follows as staff savings:

Daisyfield 1 Sub Ganger
Gt.Hwd 1 Ganger 1 Sub Ganger 3 Lengthsmen.
Gt.Hwd Operating Staff 2 Porter / Signalman
Padiham 1 Ganger 1 Sub Ganger
Rose Grove 3 Lengthsmen

Total staff savings ??????

So a total of 13 staff were affected by this closure - I presume some might have been reallocated elsewhere, but this was 1964 a time of mass closures and maybe alternative positions were few and far between?

I believe that there were no compulsory redundancies as such - there were probably plenty of alternative positions available in Birmingham and London for instance , but relatively few people wanted to move so took voluntary severance.

mailbyrail · 13 Apr 2019

My father went through numerous reorganisations and closures and I seem to remember normal practice was to offer three alternative positions. They were not necessarily convenient and often involved travel or relocation which meant many staff preferred to leave rather than face the upheaval and even the likelihood they'd have to go through it all again. Closures went on for many years and surviving one redundancy was often followed not long after by another.

Bevan Price · 15 Apr 2019

When I used to watch trains at Thatto Heath in the 1950s (Liverpool Lime St. - St. Helens - Wigan NW line), there were 2 porters, working alternate shifts. They covered all the normal station duties, including ticket sales, ticket collector for arriving trains, looking after parcels / pigeons, etc., and generally keeping the station area clean & tidy. In overall control was an area stationmaster, who looked after several stations, and based, I think, at St. Helens Shaw Street (as it then was called). Very occasionally, if two trains were expected at the same time, I, or another enthusiast, might be volunteered to collect tickets for one of the trains.

Absences were covered by a spare porter from St. Helens, or sometimes from Eccleston Park (who happened to be the father of one of the local porters.)

And in an OT sideline, one of the Thatto Heath porters left suddenly - reputedly after the local police had followed a trail of hen feathers to the booking office door.

Foxcote · 20 Apr 2019

@Bevan Price. As a result of making a mutual exchange, I was SM at Thatto Heath and Eccleston Park for 5 months in mid 1965. When a SM vacancy occurred at Prescot, I was asked to cover that position in addition. I covered the three stations for a month before I moved to another SM position in Liverpool.

I recall that the locals referred to Thatto Heath as ‘Donkey Common’.
The area relief staff were still based at St Helens, but if none were available, local staff were requested by the roster clerk to cover on overtime. The Porters at such stations were by then termed Leading Railmen. Some of the staff that I knew in 1965 had long service and may have been known to you in the 1950’s.

Railway porters

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