• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

West Coast on track for 50 million passengers by 2026

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
The Glasgow-Euston numbers are encouraging, but the real issue with that 50m target for 2026 has to be capacity across the wider WCML. New stock seems unlikely, so the core network is going to come under a lot of pressure – is another 10m on the existing services/stock feasible? As others have said, the pressing need has to be for more services between Euston and Preston/Lancaster – ideally offering as close to a 30 min frequency as can be managed with limited paths. Glasgow services are fine as they are – the 4 and a half journey is competitive for many (like me) who can’t be faffed with heading to Glasgow Airport then trekking into London from Luton or Heathrow. But I’ve been on too may southbound trains that have left Warrington with folk standing – Preston, Wigan and Warrington deserve better.

Blackpool/Preston extras tend to have lower passenger numbers than Glasgow services but unless you are a regular user you could easily board a busier train. The easiest way to avoid what you have described would be to remove Warrington and Wigan calls from Glasgow services when there is an extra service running during the hour. That way Warrington and Wigan continue to be linked twice an hour with each other and Preston but passengers are transferred away from Glasgow services. Two stops add the best part of 10 minutes to journey times, it's not a huge difference but it would be a step forward. 2/3rds of people fly from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London, even excluding people transiting onto other flights the WCML and ECML journey times are not competative. The VHF timetable was designed to decrease journey times and balance passenger numbers. Removing some calls from busy services when alternatives are available is a continuation of that. It's not unreasonable for Wigan and Warrington to only have one fast service per hour to London with irregular timings + the London-Birmingham-Scotland service. That would still be a good service. If it is insufficient then Northern should run a service WCML only service where and when paths are available.

Regarding dropping the calls at Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan NW from the present London - Glasgow via Nuneaton (ex Trent Valley Railway), these trains at this moment in time provide reasonable connections at Warrington BQ from points north of Preston into the present day Manchester - Llandudno Junction/Llandudno/Holyhead via Frodsham and Chester.

Has any thought been given as to how to maintain those connections from Preston and points north?

The journeys you describe are not major passenger flows and Manchester-Chester frequency doubles in May. It's reasonable for Wigan and Warrington to be linked with Preston on a half hourly basis i.e. the via Birmingham service + Preston/Blackpool extras, with London-Glasgow via Trent Valley services only stopping to fill in the gaps left.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,908
I seem to recall that London Midland ran a daily service to Preston to Crewe using the Class 350s a long time ago.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I seem to recall that London Midland ran a daily service to Preston to Crewe using the Class 350s a long time ago.

They talked about it but I am not aware of any such service ever having been operated. However, TPE borrowed the 350/3s from LM for strengthening at one point for some big event or other (was it the Olympics or footy, I forget?) - could you have seen those?
 

class303

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2011
Messages
391
They talked about it but I am not aware of any such service ever having been operated. However, TPE borrowed the 350/3s from LM for strengthening at one point for some big event or other (was it the Olympics or footy, I forget?) - could you have seen those?

They certainly did for the 2014 Commonwealth games in Glasgow. Made a change seeing LM livery at Glasgow Central.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
They talked about it but I am not aware of any such service ever having been operated. However, TPE borrowed the 350/3s from LM for strengthening at one point for some big event or other (was it the Olympics or footy, I forget?) - could you have seen those?

I too am certain there was a daily Crewe to Preston (maybe ex Birmingham) in the very early days of London Midland, it returned south empty and may even have run on certain weekdays only. It went with the Dec 08 recast.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
They certainly did for the 2014 Commonwealth games in Glasgow. Made a change seeing LM livery at Glasgow Central.

Yes - it was before they entered into service proper with LM (before 3tph to Redditch and the Northampton fasts) and as such were 'spare'.

I too am certain there was a daily Crewe to Preston (maybe ex Birmingham) in the very early days of London Midland, it returned south empty and may even have run on certain weekdays only. It went with the Dec 08 recast.

Monday to Friday only. 1651ish off New Street to Preston, I think.
 

Peter0124

Established Member
Joined
20 Nov 2016
Messages
1,947
Location
Glasgow
The current last train is a pretty respectable 1930. Any later would be a very late (or rather, early) arrival at Glasgow Central - I suspect too late for most tastes.

HS2 should improve this - leave Euston later to arrive Glasgow the same time as the current last train.

I think Virgin should permanently extend the 18:43 London to Crewe service up to Glasgow. (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P59178/2019/05/23/advanced)
This will give a later departure of 20:15 from Birmingham and 21:10 from Crewe? And should arrive into Glasgow a few minutes after the 19:30 ex Euston.

This will be happening on one of the Monday's in May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S51787/2019/05/27/advanced
However it is timed to arrive into Glasgow at 01:07 which seems strange?
 

Esker-pades

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2015
Messages
3,766
Location
Beds, Bucks, or somewhere else
I think Virgin should permanently extend the 18:43 London to Crewe service up to Glasgow. (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P59178/2019/05/23/advanced)
This will give a later departure of 20:15 from Birmingham and 21:10 from Crewe? And should arrive into Glasgow a few minutes after the 19:30 ex Euston.

This will be happening on one of the Monday's in May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S51787/2019/05/27/advanced
However it is timed to arrive into Glasgow at 01:07 which seems strange?
There is a huge amount of additional minutes (mainly for pathing) added. 15 minutes from Lancaster to Carlisle, 15,5 from Carlisle to Carstairs, a (non-passenger) dwell at Carstairs, 12.5 minutes from Carstairs to Glasgow. Most long-distance trains will have some additional minutes between every station call, but the regular services won't add up to 45 over a journey (possibly save for some late night stuff).
 

Geezertronic

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2009
Messages
4,089
Location
Birmingham
Yes there will.

You sure? I had a look at the 2nd link provided by @Peter0124 and on the TrainLine (both with date set to 27th May), and that service starts at 18:25, and there is no 18:43 to Birmingham? The services are at 18:25 (via Birmingham to Glasgow Central), 18:38 (terminates at Birmingham New Street), and 19:12 (via Birmingham to Crewe), with an 18:47 WMT service via Northampton & Birmingham to Crewe
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
You sure? I had a look at the 2nd link provided by @Peter0124 and on the TrainLine (both with date set to 27th May), and that service starts at 18:25, and there is no 18:43 to Birmingham? The services are at 18:25 (via Birmingham to Glasgow Central), 18:38 (terminates at Birmingham New Street), and 19:12 (via Birmingham to Crewe), with an 18:47 WMT service via Northampton & Birmingham to Crewe

27 May is a bank holiday. Look at any non bank holiday weekday.
 

BigCj34

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2016
Messages
761
Wonder if Ryanairs cancellation of London to Glasgow is any indicator of a shift to rail?

Personally the extra hour or so on the train is much more desirable than flying. But not all London to Glasgow journeys start in central London, if someone is going from Croydon and has fast track security the journey time flying from Gatwick is 3 hours versus 5.5 hours on train, a time pressed traveller will choose the latter. HS2 will help sway those who are starting their journey near an airport.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Wonder if Ryanairs cancellation of London to Glasgow is any indicator of a shift to rail?

Could well be. One thing the "via Brum" services have achieved is given VT a way to price-differentiate, with some very low Advances on those trains which no doubt are hurting the airlines.

Those services were an absolute masterstroke on many levels - quite possibly the best decision VT have made so far.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Wonder if Ryanairs cancellation of London to Glasgow is any indicator of a shift to rail?

Personally the extra hour or so on the train is much more desirable than flying. But not all London to Glasgow journeys start in central London, if someone is going from Croydon and has fast track security the journey time flying from Gatwick is 3 hours versus 5.5 hours on train, a time pressed traveller will choose the latter. HS2 will help sway those who are starting their journey near an airport.

Unlikely. Glasgow-London is a competitive air market, BA have traffic to City and a lot of transfer passengers at Heathrow. Easyjet have the rest, speed across three London airports. Ryanair was only at Stansted, and they dropped Glasgow (very quickly) when they did retrenchment after the pilot issues. Clearly they weren’t making money. My personal theory is that as EZY switched to A320s, the resultant efficiency and fare drop stretched Ryanair margins too far.

Your journey time example is a good example. It’s not just time though; often the plane is quicker and cheaper. People often choose the train for comfort, and to avoid the airport terminal experience.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,908
I think Virgin should permanently extend the 18:43 London to Crewe service up to Glasgow. (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P59178/2019/05/23/advanced)
This will give a later departure of 20:15 from Birmingham and 21:10 from Crewe? And should arrive into Glasgow a few minutes after the 19:30 ex Euston.

Wasn't this cut back from Preston a couple of timetables ago?

Similarly the 17:57 now terminates at Lancaster vice Glasgow - cut back about five years ago.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Your journey time example is a good example. It’s not just time though; often the plane is quicker and cheaper. People often choose the train for comfort, and to avoid the airport terminal experience.

You missed one more really important thing.

In the middle of the 3rd week of January, I knew exactly how much I was paying (£88) to go home for Christmas 2019, I knew the exact time of the flights, and I knew exactly how much I'd be paying to park at Heathrow (£39).
'
Now, there is the alternative. I could wait until the 22nd September and see what the fares might be, they might be cheaper than the return £88 I'm paying - but they probably won't be.

I like airports really, a few minutes to sweep through security and you are in a safe space. Dry, clean, comfortable temperature, lots of phone recharge options and plenty of places to sit. Nothing like the average journey starting at Euston.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,079
as TPE can easily handle traffic from Lancashire to Scotland it would make sense to make the London-Glasgow service non-stop between Crewe and Carlisle , and go back to pre-Virgin days with a London service serving Lancs and Cumbria only: Carlisle-Penrith-Oxenholme-Lancaster-Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Crewe-Euston. That would accelerate the Glasgow service and make capacity available while improving seating availability for Lancashire passengers. There may not be enough Pendolinos to run the service, but there must be spare 100mph EMUs available
 

BigCj34

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2016
Messages
761
as TPE can easily handle traffic from Lancashire to Scotland it would make sense to make the London-Glasgow service non-stop between Crewe and Carlisle , and go back to pre-Virgin days with a London service serving Lancs and Cumbria only: Carlisle-Penrith-Oxenholme-Lancaster-Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Crewe-Euston. That would accelerate the Glasgow service and make capacity available while improving seating availability for Lancashire passengers. There may not be enough Pendolinos to run the service, but there must be spare 100mph EMUs available

Well 100mph units wouldn't work as the WCML relies upon having 125mph tilting trains for its high frequency service. Probably not enough demand for a regular non-stop London-Glasgow service (probably more likely to stop at Preston) taking 4 hours to justify having a standalone service, even using five coach Voyagers.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
Wasn't this cut back from Preston a couple of timetables ago?
.

One of them certainly was, calls at Stafford and Crewe got inserted into the Euston-Preston via Trent Valley service behind it to still maintain the connectivity from Birmingham et al.

as TPE can easily handle traffic from Lancashire to Scotland it would make sense to make the London-Glasgow service non-stop between Crewe and Carlisle , and go back to pre-Virgin days with a London service serving Lancs and Cumbria only: Carlisle-Penrith-Oxenholme-Lancaster-Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Crewe-Euston. That would accelerate the Glasgow service and make capacity available while improving seating availability for Lancashire passengers. There may not be enough Pendolinos to run the service, but there must be spare 100mph EMUs available

TPE can scarcely cope with the demands placed on it at present, let alone making them even more of a necessity for half of North West England. Skipping Preston at least would be absolute insanity, it acts as the intercity railhead for hundreds of thousands, as well as offering connections to Blackpool and the Fylde, Blackburn and the other East Lancs towns, Chorley, Bolton, and, if you skip Wigan and Warrington, god only knows how many in north Merseyside, Liverpool and west and north west Greater Manchester. Furthermore, Preston is also one of VT's largest traincrew depots, with every service bar one changing driver there [Things could have changed since that was said on here originally, can't be many more than a couple though if so]. That entails a staff stop. Do that and it's pointless not making it a public call. I would also question just how much demand there is for a service calling at Crewe, Carlisle and Glasgow only - certainly not enough to fill a Pendo hourly, probably not enough to fill a 3-car unit of your choosing. Also pointless removing calls to speed up service if the gap doesn't exist to improve journey times. Removing Lancaster and Oxenholme does no good if it just means you end up stuck up the backside of a freight at walking pace for five miles into Carlisle. Also, the entirety of the present WCML timetable basically relies of 125mph capable operation. Last thing we need at all really is more trains on the network serving markets other services easily could.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,079
Well 100mph units wouldn't work as the WCML relies upon having 125mph tilting trains for its high frequency service. Probably not enough demand for a regular non-stop London-Glasgow service (probably more likely to stop at Preston) taking 4 hours to justify having a standalone service, even using five coach Voyagers.

they're not running at 125 for the whole route and they're making stops......how much real timing difference would there be?
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,079
TPE can scarcely cope with the demands placed on it at present, let alone making them even more of a necessity for half of North West England. Skipping Preston at least would be absolute insanity, it acts as the intercity railhead for hundreds of thousands, as well as offering connections to Blackpool and the Fylde, Blackburn and the other East Lancs towns, Chorley, Bolton, and, if you skip Wigan and Warrington, god only knows how many in north Merseyside, Liverpool and west and north west Greater Manchester.............
But you would still have those connections through a combination of the Anglo-Scots TPE services and the proposed Carlisle terminators. No connectivity would be lost.
As for use - someone has already pointed out earlier in the thread that by Preston, southbound services are packed - and that's my experience as well. Demand is there
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,079
Are you forgetting what is probably the North's biggest tourist destination there?

I personally think all trains should serve all stations between Crewe and Carlisle. Connectivity is more important than raw headline speed.

With my proposal you are not losing connectivity
As for speed, if you want to compete with aircraft London-Glasgow then speed is essential
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
But you would still have those connections through a combination of the Anglo-Scots TPE services and the proposed Carlisle terminators. No connectivity would be lost.
As for use - someone has already pointed out earlier in the thread that by Preston, southbound services are packed - and that's my experience as well. Demand is there

I will certainly give you that the Glasgow-Eustons are busy at Preston, but how many of those are on at just Glasgow and Carlisle; and not Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, or indeed boarding at Preston; and how many of those from Scotland and Carlisle are still on after Warrington heading full pelt to London? How many carriages of the swathes of capacity on an 11-car 390 does that occupy? What about about noon on a Wednesday [I'll guess that's a rather quiet time of the week!]?

Now, I don't doubt that sometimes there will be quite a few, certainly on Friday and Sunday evenings and for big events; and that is when you can run tastefully-placed relief services, and fiddle calling patterns to spread demand. But the %age of time that is applicable and not already done across the entire service provision is tiny.

Connectivity is lost as soon as you start doing it; it doesn't matter if it's a new service, instead of, in supplement to or whatever. Same goes for the Great Western from December when we have trains every hour skipping huge conurbations and railheads such as Reading and Swindon, or every hour now on the West Coast through the likes of Watford, Keynes and Rugby. As I have said before and will repeat until the end of time, Britain's railways do not need more trains on the timing graph unless we have exhausted stock lengths and had a monumental upgrade in infrastructure and the fleet and crews to run them. The fact that the 11-car Pendo, as stands, has pretty much every seat taken from Warrington to Euston isn't a failure, it is a sign that the service provision is absolutely dead on.

In future, as demand grows, we can begin to address this. If journey times to kill off domestic air travel is important then we can accommodate this too. Maybe the huge infrastructure upgrade I called for above can help this. Maybe something to bypass the more congested parts of our network and be built to a 21st Century spec, allowing the traditional lines to breath and create the well-connected railway needed. Maybe something to indicate the desired linespeed of the new route, and the fact we already have one very similar...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top