East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

clagmonster said:

No. There is only a path for one passenger train an hour. This effectively replaces the Lincoln-Leicester on the Lincoln - Notts stretch.

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Indeed, plus there is further specification within the Invitation to Tender over the pathing of Nottingham/Grimsby trains.

From the December 2021 timetable change, East Midlands Railway will only be permitted to use one parallel movement over Newark Flat Crossing.

At present there is roughly a ten minute gap between them. I presume this is why they will only go as far as Nottingham. As the timings will otherwise prove impossible to deliver around the approaches to Loughboroughs platform 3, whilst returning in time to go back to Grimsby.

43096 said:

Because they were short of bullet points and the list of improvements looked short?! They are also claiming air conditioning as an improvement on the London services, even though the MML has had aircon stock since the 1970s!

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Ha! Yes that's a very good point which I'd missed

hwl said:

Same 24m Bodyshell as the Anglia/C2C/WM Aventra but with different cabs just adding off the shelf engine rafts and same electronics as the rest. Most of it following on from 2400 other cars they will already have built.

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It would be nice if Bombardier could point to a successful Aventra operation somewhere for a prospective purchaser.
Not that the Hitachi scene is entirely satisfactory either.
Stadler is still to prove its credentials.

ainsworth74 said:

GC have no plans (publicly anyway) to replace their 180s so they'll need them for, er, a permanent period.

HT 180s remain the only possible contender other than 222s internally cascaded once Corby can go electric. The reality is that EMR are going to have to get a derogation for some of their HSTs to continue as there just aren't any fleets of suitable rolling stock out there that could replace the HSTs in the timescale available.

Plus not the wording used:



The timescale is "from May 2020" not December and it's "some" HSTs not all. To be honest I'm flipping towards 180s being the option utilised. HTs four will be available from early 2020 which ties in nicely with a "from May 2020" start date.

Meanwhile we know that the Corby service isn't mentioned as getting new stock until December 2020. I mean that starts to narrow the field of two down to one...

That being said the wires are still supposed to be available from December 2019 so perhaps there will be some EMUs used in the interim period between December 2019 and December 2020 when the new permanent fleet is due to start.

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That's largely what I thought. Interesting it says 'some' HSTs will be replaced on the Nottingham line but 'all' on the Sheffield line. Does that mean an end to HSTs to Leeds (other than ECS of course) or what, or am I reading too much into that?

HamworthyGoods said:

How do you know they are inferior? The original interior HSTs are very much like marmite as many people hate them with things like the immovable arms as love them.

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Firstly, everything (current) is inferior to the first class interior of an EMT. But that aside, if they use displaced 222's, they at least have a decent enough train without many reliability issues.

But if they're insane enought to go for Hull trains' 180's, then the replacement is not only less comfortable, but can barely complete a diagram without breaking down. That is doubly inferior.

DanTrain said:

That's largely what I thought. Interesting it says 'some' HSTs will be replaced on the Nottingham line but 'all' on the Sheffield line. Does that mean an end to HSTs to Leeds (other than ECS of course) or what, or am I reading too much into that?

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You're reading too much! The HSTs will still have to get to Leeds for maintenance

Or it could be that the HST's zoom off from St Pancras and Nottingham to Leeds ECS at the end of the day, while Sheffield passengers are hearded onto a 180 immediately following and asked to keep their fingers crossed for the journey.

Lunacy of course, but I wouldn't be surprised.

yorksrob said:

Firstly, everything (current) is inferior to the first class interior of an EMT. But that aside, if they use displaced 222's, they at least have a decent enough train without many reliability issues.

But if they're insane enought to go for Hull trains' 180's, then the replacement is not only less comfortable, but can barely complete a diagram without breaking down. That is doubly inferior.

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It is perhaps worth making a point that the 180s' reliability has gone downhill partly due to the switch in depot allocation from OOC to Crofton - HT weren't at all happy with the move, given that the Crofton 'staff' were the ones who dropped a 222 from the jacks.
GC's 180s are also allegedly maintained by the cowboys at Crofton now too.

Obviously, age is a factor in reliability, but if EMR decide to overhaul the maintenance arrangements rather than slapping sticky tape over the bad parts, I'm optimistic that the 180s won't be as bad as we're making them out to be.

59CosG95 said:

It is perhaps worth making a point that the 180s' reliability has gone downhill partly due to the switch in depot allocation from OOC to Crofton - HT weren't at all happy with the move, given that the Crofton 'staff' were the ones who dropped a 222 from the jacks.
GC's 180s are also allegedly maintained by the cowboys at Crofton now too.

Obviously, age is a factor in reliability, but if EMR decide to overhaul the maintenance arrangements rather than slapping sticky tape over the bad parts, I'm optimistic that the 180s won't be as bad as we're making them out to be.

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Crofton seem to manage with their Voyagers, which makes me think that it is the trains that are the problem, more than the depot. It also begs the question where EMT are going to find all this 180 expertise that has apparently elluded Crofton so far.

It is unacceptable for Midland mainline passengers to be subjected to any old mobile scrapheap, just so a civil servant can tick a box to say thst he's doing something to remove HST's a bit earlier than is practical.

Yes, people often forget that OOC had the measure of the 180s in their latter years on GWR and turned them into quite reliable trains - albeit with the luxury of having them out of service every weekend.

Would 185s break the timetable on the MML with their 100mph top speed?

yorksrob said:

Crofton seem to manage with their Voyagers, which makes me think that it is the trains that are the problem, more than the depot. It also begs the question where EMT are going to find all this 180 expertise that has apparently elluded Crofton so far.

It is unacceptable for Midland mainline passengers to be subjected to any old mobile scrapheap, just so a civil servant can tick a box to say thst he's doing something to remove HST's a bit earlier than is practical.

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Remember they'll have 4 units for 2 diagrams, which aren't as intensive as the HT diagrams.

Crofton don't do any Voyager maintenance, that's done at Central Rivers, I believe they just do stable and refuel at Crofton

DanTrain said:

That's largely what I thought. Interesting it says 'some' HSTs will be replaced on the Nottingham line but 'all' on the Sheffield line. Does that mean an end to HSTs to Leeds (other than ECS of course) or what, or am I reading too much into that?

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It says almost exactly the same for Sheffield as it does for Nottingham. Namely:

from May 2020, modern diesel trains will begin to replace aging HSTs.

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Keywords being "well begin". The brand new trains then follow in April 2022 like they do on Nottingham

The ex GC HST and 180s are all Angel so this could be an easy swap

cactustwirly said:

Remember they'll have 4 units for 2 diagrams, which aren't as intensive as the HT diagrams.

Crofton don't do any Voyager maintenance, that's done at Central Rivers, I believe they just do stable and refuel at Crofton

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As long as they stick to the odd diagrams currently done by the ex GC HST's, that wouldn't be too much of a problem (in that they're easily avoided). They'd be far better off sticking with cascaded Meridians though.

LNW-GW Joint said:

Not that the Hitachi scene is entirely satisfactory either.

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None of the new stock has exactly covered itself in roses this time round, but the 80x are at least in reliable fleet service on GWR and they do fully fit the specification.

yorksrob said:

As long as they stick to the odd diagrams currently done by the ex GC HST's, that wouldn't be too much of a problem (in that they're easily avoided). They'd be far better off sticking with cascaded Meridians though.

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Cascaded from where? I don't think the Corby electrification will be ready in time!

ainsworth74 said:

It says almost exactly the same for Sheffield as it does for Nottingham. Namely:



Keywords being "well begin". The brand new trains then follow in April 2022 like they do on Nottingham

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Agreed i'd expect initially 180s on segregated diagrams then a second phase 2 with Corby EMUs releasing a number of 222s.

The new timetable should also help with HST reduction

cactustwirly said:

Cascaded from where? I don't think the Corby electrification will be ready in time!

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That's something I hadn't considered. I'd assumed they were on time with the electrification, given how far the wires have got.

Personally I don't want a lot of messing around with traction types on the trains I use, which tend to be the long standing HST diagrams. I'd rather go straight from HST to new in 2022.

yorksrob said:

Having looked at the website, the bad news appears to be that they're planning on replacing some HST's with inferior second hand diesel trains from May 2020, long before the bi-modes come on line.

Hopefully this will only be a very few diagrams.

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They have to. The HSTs are non-compliant with PRM-TSI regs and will have to operate under a derogation from the end of the year.

londonmidland said:

I don't think there is capacity to stop EMT services on the already busy MML South route at St. Albans. Also is the demand even there? St Albans already receives fast services to/from London and I don't think there are many passengers wanting to travel further than Bedford from there.

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Indeed St Albans gets 2tph non stop to St Pancras Int, 2tph that only stop at West Hampstead Thameslink and the remaining 6tph are a mix of semi fast and stopping services so 10tph is more then enough capacity.

I rather they continue to serve Bedford/Luton/Luton Airport Parkway alternately like they do at the moment eg Luton Airport Parkway - Bedford - East Midlands stations or Luton - Bedford - East Midlands stations.

We already have a slow Nottingham call at Luton Airport Parkway and Bedford so why not consider a slow Sheffield calling at Luton then East Midlands stations?

yorksrob said:

Firstly, everything (current) is inferior to the first class interior of an EMT.

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That is your opinion but you're comparing apples and pears eg comparing the 1st Class of a EMT service to Standard Class so of course they're going to be different, a much more fairer assessment would be to compare 1st Class on a EMT HST with 1st on a GWR/LNER/XC HST for example or even compare Standard Class on a EMT HST with Standard Class on a GWR/LNER/XC HST etc...

Who's to say that new rolling stock won't be a suitable replacement for the HSTs which although are a good design deserve to be retired after decades of service, people moaned about the Class 80Xs saying there be less legroom but that was proven to be utter twaddle.

yorksrob said:

But if they're insane enought to go for Hull trains' 180's, then the replacement is not only less comfortable, but can barely complete a diagram without breaking down. That is doubly inferior.

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The issue with the Hull Trains Class 180s is not the trains themselves but rather with the suspect maintenance that Crofton carry out on them, as has been said before Old Oak Common had them performing well as they were used to the quirks and knew how to get the best out of the units but since moving to Crofton that knowledge has been lost.

To give a analogy, when the Class 700s started working on the GN there was various issues as the drivers were still getting used to them compared to on the TL where the drivers having spent longer with them were far more used to them and knew various tricks to get the best out of them, the same applies for the maintenance of the Class 180s.

As to assuming that the Class 180s are less comfortable then again that is your own opinion and not a balanced one, I've used the Class 180s a number of times with Hull Trains, Grand Central and First Great Western yet to have a uncomfortable journey especially as there is nothing that a decent maintenance team can't do with them.

Journeyman said:

They have to. The HSTs are non-compliant with PRM-TSI regs and will have to operate under a derogation from the end of the year.

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Then let them operate under a derogation until the new trains are ready.

hwl said:

First Bi-mode in service for April 2022.
Which fits very well with Bombardier.
Hitachi could deliver earlier...

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I struggle to think Bombardier could deliver by April 2022.

Look at their current very slow progress:

• Not all class 345s have been built (fair enough, with all the Crossrail delays, no need to build them quickly)
• Class 710s have not all been built and are a year and a bit late right now entering service as it stands. They have constant issues and will probably take another year being optimistic to get most into service.
• Class 720s only one has been fully built I understand so far, but another 80-something have to be built. These trains were supposed to start being delivered last summer and be in service within the next few weeks. It's safe to assume they won't even see service this decade.
• Class 701s and 730s were both supposed to enter service from late this year if I remember correctly and not even one bodyshell has been constructed for either classes.
• After all that there's still the microfleet class 711 for c2c albeit that isn't until 2021

So the status is no batch has been fully introduced. All of them are currently running late in terms of delivery and service entry. Bombardier are operating realistically on an 18-24 month delay with all their orders.

Without attempting to be pessimistic about their outlook, I don't think it is possible for them to deliver this new 125mph bi-mode train quite frankly for 2022. This incorporates even more new technologies than the current Aventras platform such as having to run at 125mph, being diesel and electric.

Competitors such as Hitachi definitely can deliver earlier or for April 2022 but not Bombardier.

700007 said:

I struggle to think Bombardier could deliver by April 2022.

Look at their current very slow progress:

• Not all class 345s have been built (fair enough, with all the Crossrail delays, no need to build them quickly)
• Class 710s have not all been built and are a year and a bit late right now entering service as it stands. They have constant issues and will probably take another year being optimistic to get most into service.
• Class 720s only one has been fully built I understand so far, but another 80-something have to be built. These trains were supposed to start being delivered last summer and be in service within the next few weeks. It's safe to assume they won't even see service this decade.
• Class 701s and 730s were both supposed to enter service from late this year if I remember correctly and not even one bodyshell has been constructed for either classes.
• After all that there's still the microfleet class 711 for c2c albeit that isn't until 2021

So the status is no batch has been fully introduced. All of them are currently running late in terms of delivery and service entry. Bombardier are operating realistically on an 18-24 month delay with all their orders.

Without attempting to be pessimistic about their outlook, I don't think it is possible for them to deliver this new 125mph bi-mode train quite frankly for 2022. This incorporates even more new technologies than the current Aventras platform such as having to run at 125mph, being diesel and electric.

Competitors such as Hitachi definitely can deliver earlier or for April 2022 but not Bombardier.

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The major issue with the Aventras is software as it was with the early electrostars.
The Crossrail build is pretty much on schedule (the last units were only needed for the end of this year if things had been on time)
Most of the 710s are built but there are software issues as is well known.

ainsworth74 said:

The thing I find bizarre is that the ad-hoc Leeds services are still included in the franchise. Considering that they only exist due to the HSTs going to and from Neville Hill and, in my experience, are usually dead between Leeds and Sheffield I'd have thought that the opportunity to kill them off once the HSTs are gone would have been taken!

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This!
I wonder if it could be dropped later on.

cactustwirly said:

Better than EMT! GA actually have a buffet counter on their Norwich services, with proper coffee as well!

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An easy win really.
Use existing stock, but when new stock arrives, increase catering offering, first class offering and they'll be popular.

yorksrob said:

That's something I hadn't considered. I'd assumed they were on time with the electrification, given how far the wires have got.

Personally I don't want a lot of messing around with traction types on the trains I use, which tend to be the long standing HST diagrams. I'd rather go straight from HST to new in 2022.

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I wouldn't mind if there was something suitable (e.g. 68+Mk4) that wasn't complete rubbish like Class 180s. There is only one thing Class 180s are suitable for, and that is turning into razor blades and beer cans.

At least you'll get some - a lot of - Delay Repay.

hwl said:

just adding off the shelf engine rafts and same electronics as the rest

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Porterbrook made it sound that easy modifying 319s into 769s too! (Obviously the age difference and lack of corrosion will be a factor on a new product)

A 3rd option for a 125mph bi-mode could be if CAF were willing to put some engines under a 397. Their new stock does look promising.

td97 said:

A 3rd option for a 125mph bi-mode could be if CAF were willing to put some engines under a 397. Their new stock does look promising.

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Provided they chose a TPE quality interior and some decent seats (as I mentioned above, Abellio are not ones for choosing the cheap option on seats), yes, yes and yes again. The Class 397 looks very much like the thing I've long been calling for - a "Class 344" i.e. 125mph OHLE Class 444, the latter being just about a perfect IC EMU for the UK.

Or how about following East Anglia (not necessarily with Stadler) - a 100% level boarding IC fleet would be a big coup.

Bletchleyite said:

I wouldn't mind if there was something suitable (e.g. 68+Mk4) that wasn't complete rubbish like Class 180s. There is only one thing Class 180s are suitable for, and that is turning into razor blades and beer cans.

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That's two things

The 180s are decent enough trains when properly maintained, as Old Oak Common managed. There is no particular reason why the reliability of the 175s couldn't have been achieved with the very similar 180s.

180s have been hobbled by being split into two or three microfleets, shunted from pillar to post every few years, and rarely anywhere long enough to invest in an overhaul. If all 14 units were with one TOC, under a long-term maintenance arrangement with people who know what they're doing (as OOC did), they'd be perfectly ok.

Doctor Fegg said:

Would 185s break the timetable on the MML with their 100mph top speed?

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I'm not sure it would work as 185s can't do HST speeds, and there are quite a few HST speed differentials even below 100mph.